What makes an Islamic Saint?

[Linda_Marie]

Back when I lived in Iran, I visited a shrine to an Islamic saint. His coffin was solid silver surrounded by a solid silver ornate cage to protect it. Mostly women visited this saint’s shrine, bringing their sick babies for healing.We’d also been to the Shaking Minarets whose preservation is attributed to the holiness of the man buried there. The way the minaret shakes is for a person to climb up to the top and throw themselves from side to side. My dh did it and got it swaying a whole lot more than this video. The miracle is that they don’t fall down from this treatment.

So, I was wondering - what makes an Islamic Saint? What are the attributes of sainthood for Islam? How does one get declared a saint or get a shrine erected?

 

[Contarini]

Back when I lived in Iran, I visited a shrine to an Islamic saint. His coffin was solid silver surrounded by a solid silver ornate cage to protect it. Mostly women visited this saint’s shrine, bringing their sick babies for healing.We’d also been to the Shaking Minarets whose preservation is attributed to the holiness of the man buried there. The way the minaret shakes is for a person to climb up to the top and throw themselves from side to side. My dh did it and got it swaying a whole lot more than this video. The miracle is that they don’t fall down from this treatment.

So, I was wondering - what makes an Islamic Saint? What are the attributes of sainthood for Islam? How does one get declared a saint or get a shrine erected?

Good question–I don’t know a lot of the details (oh how I wish I had taken the class in grad school on “Sainthood in Comparative Perspective”!–my wasted youth!). But in Iran you are dealing with Shi’ism, which is both more hierarchical than Sunni Islam and has a particular emphasis on sainthood. Generally in Islam sainthood is a matter of popular recognition–as in earlier times in Catholicism as well. But the modern Iranian Shi’ites may have some kind of official process–I’m really not sure.

In Sunni Islam, sainthood is particularly emphasized by the Sufis (the mystics). In the late 18th-century there was an anti-Sufi fundamentalist movement called Wahhabism (kind of the Islamic equivalent of Puritanism), which considered the veneration of saints idolatry and desecrated their tombs, massacring the scholars and mystics who lived there. This movement more or less took over in what is now Saudi Arabia–in fact the royal family of Saudi Arabia are descended from Ibn-Wahhab, I believe. Because Saudi Arabia is so rich, it can finance the Wahhabi version of Islam, and Wahhabism appears to have made a lot of strides toward taking over as the dominant form of Sunni Islam. Wahhabis don’t admit to being Wahhabis–they think this is a pejorative term for “real Muslims.” So many Muslims will simply scoff at saint veneration and tell you that “real Muslims” don’t do such things–when in fact these practices have been very common historically in the Islamic world.

Of course, by the Wahhabi standard the Shi’ites are definitely not “real Muslims”!

Edwin

 

[Linda_Marie]

Yes, I was aware of the ‘friction’ between the 2 sects. I grew up in KSA under Wahhabi Islam and never heard a thing about Islamic saints until I went to Iran. Our main street had been named Persian Boulevard but they made us change it to Surf Drive; that’s how sensitive they were to even mentioning the other mob.

So, in Shi’a Islam, are these saints are just popular ‘holy’ men like the Ayatollah Khomeini?

 

[CKing]

Yes, I was aware of the ‘friction’ between the 2 sects. I grew up in KSA under Wahhabi Islam and never heard a thing about Islamic saints until I went to Iran. Our main street had been named Persian Boulevard but they made us change it to Surf Drive; that’s how sensitive they were to even mentioning the other mob.

So, in Shi’a Islam, are these saints are just popular ‘holy’ men like the Ayatollah Khomeini?

officially shi’a islam doesn’t recognize saints either but saint worship in itself is a remnant of the pre-shi’ite sufi islam which was standard in the entire muslim world until the last few centuries.

this sort of folk islam is very popular in north and west africa as well as asia especially the subcontinent (afghanistan, pakistan, india, bangladesh). basically, only the arabs from egypt to the gulf don’t believe in saints. various cities pay homage to their saint and sometimes an entire region will have a saint ex. the founders of chisti sufi order are considered sort of patron saints of india. it all follows a chain and hierarchy that claims to go back to the prophet himself.

purported miracles of these “saints” include the usual: flying, raising the dead, appearing in multiple places at once… the more bizzare are 15ft tall buried saint in pakistan and another who “merged” with a hindu saint to form a new person.

 

[Linda_Marie]

Any Muslims have some answers?

What does Islam consider to be a holy life? What attributes are desired?

Here is the definition of saint from the Merriam-Webster Online dictionary:

Main Entry: 1saint
Pronunciation: \ˈsānt, before a name (ˌ)sānt or sənt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French seint, saint, from Late Latin sanctus, from Latin, sacred, from past participle of sancire to make sacred — more at sacred
Date: 13th century
1 : one officially recognized especially through canonization as preeminent for holiness
2 a : one of the spirits of the departed in heaven b : angel 1a
3 a : one of God’s chosen and usually Christian people b capitalized : a member of any of various Christian bodies; specifically : latter-day saint
4 : one eminent for piety or virtue
5 : an illustrious predecessor

For Islam, does ‘saint’ mean more an illustrious predecessor? Are we using the word ‘saint’ when it might not be applicable at all?

 

[elwill]

Any Muslims have some answers?

What does Islam consider to be a holy life? What attributes are desired?

For Islam, does ‘saint’ mean more an illustrious predecessor? Are we using the word ‘saint’ when it might not be applicable at all?

the most equevalent word for sainthood in arabic is “waley”

so read this article , it’s very great article to give you entire information about this subject and it answers most of your questions

muslimsocietyofleeds.org.uk/sainthood_islam.html

 

[Sam_777]

So, I was wondering - what makes an Islamic Saint?

In Islam the word “Saint” is not used, here in Saudi Arabia it’s called “Sheikh”, the general Muslims can elect one devoted Muslim to be a Sheikh to guide them in the daily prayers, or he can be appointed by the government in the courts to handle the legal documents.

What are the attributes of sainthood for Islam?

Nothing special, any Muslim who implement the five pillars of Islam and have a good reputation between Muslims then he can be called “Sheikh”, and in some Islamic societies he has to have an excellent knowledge about Islam (Quran, Hadith, …,etc).

How does one get declared a saint or get a shrine erected?

Shrines are strictly prohibited in Sunni Islam per this authentic hadith:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 23, Number 414:
"*Aisha said, “The Prophet in his fatal illness said, 'Allah cursed the Jews and the Christians because they took the graves of their Prophets as places for praying.”’ Aisha added, “Had it not been for that the grave of the Prophet (p.b.u.h) would have been made prominent but I am afraid it might be taken (as a) place for praying”.

• قال رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏في مرضه الذي لم يقم منه ‏ ‏لعن الله ‏ ‏اليهود ‏ ‏والنصارى ‏ ‏اتخذوا قبور أنبيائهم مساجد لولا ذلك أبرز قبره غير أنه خشي ‏ ‏أو خشي ‏ ‏أن يتخذ مسجدا ‏
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  (E) (A)

 

[elwill]

the most equevalent word for sainthood in arabic is “waley”

so read this article , it’s very great article to give you entire information about this subject and it answers most of your questions

muslimsocietyofleeds.org.uk/sainthood_islam.html

when i read this link again carefully , i found out that it contains some knowledge which is against islam from sunni point of view , i think
so don’t take it as to be my openion , i can’t edit it now

peace

 

[Contarini]

Shrines are strictly prohibited in Sunni Islam per this authentic hadith:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 23, Number 414:
"*Aisha said, “The Prophet in his fatal illness said, 'Allah cursed the Jews and the Christians because they took the graves of their Prophets as places for praying.”’ Aisha added, “Had it not been for that the grave of the Prophet (p.b.u.h) would have been made prominent but I am afraid it might be taken (as a) place for praying”.

• قال رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏في مرضه الذي لم يقم منه ‏ ‏لعن الله ‏ ‏اليهود ‏ ‏والنصارى ‏ ‏اتخذوا قبور أنبيائهم مساجد لولا ذلك أبرز قبره غير أنه خشي ‏ ‏أو خشي ‏ ‏أن يتخذ مسجدا ‏
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  (E) (A)

Sam (and the same goes for Elwill),

You’re using “Sunni” to mean “Wahhabi.” I know that you have been taught that this simply is Sunni Islam, but historically that’s not true.

I have no idea how non-Wahhabi Sunnis interpret the hadith you cite–but I know as a matter of fact that there are shrines all over the Sunni world–and there were shrines in Arabia until the Wahhabis desecrated them and massacred those who took care of them.

I believe that the website to which elwill linked reflects a fairly mainstream view among Sunni Muslims historically, although Wahhabi propaganda tries desperately to persuade Muslims otherwise.

Sufism seems stronger among British Muslims than among American Muslims–I think the reason may be the greater number of Indian/Pakistani Muslims in Britain.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

officially shi’a islam doesn’t recognize saints either

That’s not my understanding. I think you have been misled here. Where do you find such an official statement.

but saint worship in itself is a remnant of the pre-shi’ite sufi islam which was standard in the entire muslim world until the last few centuries.

I wouldn’t say that sufi Islam is “pre-shi’ite.” The two developed more or less in tandem. There are Shi’ite Sufis, but vanilla Shi’a Islam has more Sufi-like elements (including the veneration of saints) than vanilla Sunni Islam.

Edwin

 

[CKing]

In Islam the word “Saint” is not used, here in Saudi Arabia it’s called “Sheikh”, the general Muslims can elect one devoted Muslim to be a Sheikh to guide them in the daily prayers, or he can be appointed by the government in the courts to handle the legal documents.

Nothing special, any Muslim who implement the five pillars of Islam and have a good reputation between Muslims then he can be called “Sheikh”, and in some Islamic societies he has to have an excellent knowledge about Islam (Quran, Hadith, …,etc).

Shrines are strictly prohibited in Sunni Islam per this authentic hadith:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 23, Number 414:
"*Aisha said, “The Prophet in his fatal illness said, 'Allah cursed the Jews and the Christians because they took the graves of their Prophets as places for praying.”’ Aisha added, “Had it not been for that the grave of the Prophet (p.b.u.h) would have been made prominent but I am afraid it might be taken (as a) place for praying”.

• قال رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏في مرضه الذي لم يقم منه ‏ ‏لعن الله ‏ ‏اليهود ‏ ‏والنصارى ‏ ‏اتخذوا قبور أنبيائهم مساجد لولا ذلك أبرز قبره غير أنه خشي ‏ ‏أو خشي ‏ ‏أن يتخذ مسجدا ‏
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  (E) (A)

books.google.com/books?id=1QmrSwFYe60C&pg=PA124&lpg=PA124&dq=shori+gotra&source=web&ots=qJ1831j75b&sig=nlILq22h0Li3vlo7ALLqUXzEajg#PPA8,M1

listing from a census from 19th cent british india. this is before the british-backed saudis conquered arabia, discovered oil, and subsequently started to spread their cult all over the muslim world until now it practically IS islam in the middle east.

“They accept the six books of traditions as collected by the Sunnis, but reject the subsequent glosses of the fathers and the voice of the church, and claim liberty of conscience and the right of private interpretation. The orthodox deny the title of Musalmans (Muslim).”

Therefore i wouldnt put too much stock into wahabism. its just an empire built on petro-dollars. besides, outside of the arab world its not the dominant form of islam. its actually based on a book called Kitab at-Tawhid (the book of unity) by the eponymous Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahab. the book is actually quite silly and juvenile in nature. reading it one understands why this movement never quite caught on outside the desert.

 

[Nine_Two]

My understanding is that Sunni don’t venerate “saints”, with the exception of Mohammed, while Shia do.

 

[CKing]

That’s not my understanding. I think you have been misled here. Where do you find such an official statement.

i’ll try to find an official statement but i do believe your confusing shi’ite veneration of the prophet’s family/descendants with wider sufi orders.

I wouldn’t say that sufi Islam is “pre-shi’ite.” The two developed more or less in tandem. There are Shi’ite Sufis, but vanilla Shi’a Islam has more Sufi-like elements (including the veneration of saints) than vanilla Sunni Islam.

Edwin

there are certainly similarities as the shi’ite imams and the early sufi saints are one and the same. however, shi’ites have been in political power long before any “sufi” comes on the block… fatimids, buyhids, etc. More so, most sufi orders only date back 800 or so years ago – around the time the ismailis were defeated and dispersed.

here’s a good article on the tendency of most sufi orders to have rather exaggerated histories:
home.earthlink.net/~drmljg/id15.html

“If one simply takes a careful look at any silsila, and adds up the number of Sheikhs in the lineage, then divides the number of years your tariqa has been said to be in existence by the number of Sheikhs you have in your lineage, you will see an enormous number of individuals who have life spans that stretch way beyond the normal human lifespan. Why? Because certain members of your tariqa, throughout history, knew that there were huge gaps between certain Sheikhs, and therefore to make it seem that there was always a direct hand-to-hand transmission between Sheikhs, they deliberately fudged the dates of these Sheikhs lives.”

 

[CKing]

My understanding is that Sunni don’t venerate “saints”, with the exception of Mohammed, while Shia do.

anatolia and the balkans are littered with muslim “saints”

the ottoman jannissaries were patronized by the hajji bektash wali – a 14th cent dervish.

 

[Linda_Marie]

the most equevalent word for sainthood in arabic is “waley”

so read this article , it’s very great article to give you entire information about this subject and it answers most of your questions

muslimsocietyofleeds.org.uk/sainthood_islam.html

Please correct me if I’m wrong. It seems that some Muslims believe that the Saints can hear our prayers and intercede on our behalf before God and that devotion to the Saints is purely voluntary and not to be mistaken with worship, while other Muslims believe that giving any devotion to a human person can be mistaken for worship so it should be prohibited.

What are the Compulsory Acts (Fardh, Waajib)?

What are the Detestable Acts (Makrooh)?

In emulating Mohammad, what qualities are held up to be the most imitated?

I suppose what I’m wondering is what behaviour does Islam consider holy and good and what would be condemned? What makes a pious Muslim, above and beyond what is required?

 

[Harland]

Maybe a saint is someone dying while killing infidels?

 

[Sam_777]

Contarini,

Technically speaking the 12th century Wahhabism is not a new sect, Wahhabism is based on the 3’ed century Salafi, and Salafi is based on the people of hadith whom were during the time of Muhammed.

Moreover, the hadith quoted is “Sahih Bukhari” (the most authoritative book after Quran in Sunni Islam), so if some “Sunni Countries” are still building shrines then those countries cannot be officially called Sunni Countries.

 

[Kadaveri]

There are no ‘saints’ in Sunni Islam. Just because you’ll find some Sunnis worshipping at shrines doesn’t mean its really part of the religion, Catholics do all sorts of things which aren’t authentically Catholic. The reason why you find a lot of that in Turkey and the Balkans is because those places were Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christian for centuries before becoming Muslim and some practices from their previous religions (like saints) haven’t been weeded out yet.

There is something approaching sainthood in Shi’a Islam with their veneration of the descendents of the Prophet Muhammad, who they believe to be the rightful leaders of Muslims.

 

[CKing]

Contarini,

Technically speaking the 12th century Wahhabism is not a new sect, Wahhabism is based on the 3’ed century Salafi, and Salafi is based on the people of hadith whom were during the time of Muhammed.

islam has never been up for private interpretation which is why all four schools of sunni islam crystallized nearly a thousand years ago. the salafis (or ahl-e-hadith as they refer to themselves in the subcontinent) were one of many islamic cults who didn’t agree with the mainstream positions and virtually invented their own theology by picking and choosing through hadiths when in fact the true source of islamic teaching has always been the rulings of the four imams and they do allow intercession.

as the link i had posted earlier pointed out, what seperates these people from other sects is their tendency to consider any muslim outside of their own cult as a Kafir (disbeliever, infidel, etc.) a position very unique in islam as sunni-shia generally referred to each other as heretics but rarely outright Kafir. for example, the wahabis (salafis) do not consider the Hanafi school of thought (largest in the world) to be islamic and will frequently refer to them as kafirs where these communities coexist.

i believe they were officially pronounced as heterodox by islamic scholars from morocco down to east asia in the 18th or 19th centuries. they exist thanks to british arms.

Moreover, the hadith quoted is “Sahih Bukhari” (the most authoritative book after Quran in Sunni Islam), so if some “Sunni Countries” are still building shrines then those countries cannot be officially called Sunni Countries.

…and also

There are no ‘saints’ in Sunni Islam. Just because you’ll find some Sunnis worshipping at shrines doesn’t mean its really part of the religion, Catholics do all sorts of things which aren’t authentically Catholic.

this is a classic example of the no true scotsman… fallacy.

by your logic the vast majority of muslims from senegal to morrocco to somalia to anatolia to iran to india to central asia to china to the malay peninsula and indonesia with their ancient civilizations and kingdoms are all wrong but a bunch of illiterate bedouin raiders figured it all out under the tutelage of a scholar who was laughed out of iraq???

 

[Kadaveri]

You’re exaggerating just how prevalent these practices are. But anyhow it’s already been established in this thread that saints and shrines not being part of Sunni Islam is not something that originated with Salafis but comes directly from the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad himself. Even most of the Muslim world indulging in it wouldn’t change these facts.