What makes an Islamic Saint?

[CKing]

You’re exaggerating just how prevalent these practices are. But anyhow it’s already been established in this thread that saints and shrines not being part of Sunni Islam is not something that originated with Salafis but comes directly from the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad himself. Even most of the Muslim world indulging in it wouldn’t change these facts.

no, we haven’t established any facts but merely justification for one interpretation among others. the issue is whether intercession of (NOT prayer to) saints is part of islam and it very much is and has always been. this practice is known as TAWWASUL and anyone interested can look it up at their own leisure.

furthermore, why do you keep saying “sunni islam says this…” when in fact these teachings are clearly wahabi. just because wahabis have billions of dollars to play with in the current day and western arms to protect them does not mean they can go back and revise their own history as a dangerous and marginalized cult into some enlightened “reform” movement… but that is deviating from the topic so i’ll stop here.

 

[Kadaveri]

How are they clearly “Wahabi”? Nothing presented to you has been from anything but totally mainstream Sunni sources, another one for you:

Jundub reported: I heard from the Messenger of God five days before his death… "Beware of those who preceded you and used to take the graves of their prophets and righteous men as places of worship. You must not take graves as mosques; I forbid you to do that." (Sahih Muslim 4:1083).

Tawasul is remembrance of God, not praying to ‘saints’ for intercession.

 

[Nine_Two]

anatolia and the balkans are littered with muslim “saints”

the ottoman jannissaries were patronized by the hajji bektash wali – a 14th cent dervish.

I know, but these tended to be Shia sects as far as I’m aware. At least the shrines I’ve seen were.

 

[Linda_Marie]

I think we have established that Sunni Muslims do not, on the whole, venerate saints, while some but maybe not all, Shi’a do, . This is not the only difference that separates their practice of the faith, and my question wasn’t intended to spark an argument between Sunni and Shi’a.

What are the Compulsory Acts (Fardh, Waajib)?

What are the Detestable Acts (Makrooh)?

In emulating Mohammad, what qualities are held up to be the most imitated?

I suppose what I’m wondering is what behaviour does Islam consider holy and good and what would be condemned? What makes a pious Muslim, above and beyond what is required?

For instance, in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew Chapter 5), Jesus gives a whole range of blessed behaviours. In Luke, we also are told the ‘Woes’ or behaviour to be avoided.

20Looking at his disciples, he said:
"Blessed are you who are poor,
for yours is the kingdom of God.
21Blessed are you who hunger now,
for you will be satisfied.
Blessed are you who weep now,
for you will laugh.
22Blessed are you when men hate you,
when they exclude you and insult you
and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.

23"Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets.
24"But woe to you who are rich,
for you have already received your comfort.
25Woe to you who are well fed now,
for you will go hungry.
Woe to you who laugh now,
for you will mourn and weep.
26Woe to you when all men speak well of you,
for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets.

Love for Enemies
27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+6&version=NIV

At this point, I think I am defining ‘saint’ as someone who exemplifies the teachings of their faith by the way they live their lives, rather than someone who has a public declaration of sainthood, although that is what interested me at first. I think that question is answered. All the shrines to saints in Shi’a Islam belong to Mohammad’s family and these are the only ones revered. (did I get that right?)

 

[Sam_777]

by your logic the vast majority of muslims from senegal to morrocco to somalia to anatolia to iran to india to central asia to china to the malay peninsula and indonesia with their ancient civilizations and kingdoms are all wrong but a bunch of illiterate bedouin raiders figured it all out under the tutelage of a scholar who was laughed out of iraq???

Yes, any Muslim who build a shrine OR put someone between him and Allah is doing a sin according to Sunni Islam, so all those countries you mentioned if they have some Muslims whom are doing such practices then yes they are sinning, however, in addition to the Sahih Bukhari provided earlier and the Sahih Muslim provided by Kadaveri, here is prohibition from Quran itself:

(Quran 7:194):
“Verily those whom ye call upon besides Allah are servants like unto you: Call upon them, and let them listen to your prayer, if ye are (indeed) truthful!”

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ تَدْعُونَ مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ عِبَادٌ أَمْثَالُكُمْ فَادْعُوهُمْ فَلْيَسْتَجِيبُوا لَكُمْ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
​

(Quran 39:43):
"What! Do they take for intercessors others besides Allah? Say: “Even if they have no power whatever and no intelligence?”

أَمِ اتَّخَذُوا مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ شُفَعَاءَ قُلْ أَوَلَوْ كَانُوا لا يَمْلِكُونَ شَيْئاً وَلا يَعْقِلُونَ
​

(Quran 17:56-57):
Say: Cry unto those (saints and angels) whom ye assume (to be gods) beside Him, yet they have no power to rid you of misfortune nor to change. Those unto whom they cry seek the way of approach to their Lord, which of them shall be the nearest; they hope for His mercy and they fear His doom. Lo! the doom of thy Lord is to be shunned.

قُلِ ادْعُوا الَّذِينَ زَعَمْتُمْ مِنْ دُونِهِ فَلَا يَمْلِكُونَ كَشْفَ الضُّرِّ عَنْكُمْ وَلَا تَحْوِيلًا أُولَئِكَ الَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ يَبْتَغُونَ إِلَى رَبِّهِمُ الْوَسِيلَةَ أَيُّهُمْ أَقْرَبُ وَيَرْجُونَ رَحْمَتَهُ وَيَخَافُونَ عَذَابَهُ إِنَّ عَذَابَ رَبِّكَ كَانَ مَحْذُورًا
​

the issue is whether intercession of (NOT prayer to) saints is part of islam and it very much is and has always been. this practice is known as TAWWASUL and anyone interested can look it up at their own leisure.

Intercession/Tawwasul of saints is NOT part of Islam per (Quran 39:43) as shown above.

 

[hamba2han]

For anyone who wishes to learn about the beliefs of Sunni Islam, I would suggest to spend a bit of time reading this very comprehensive crash course on the subject.

By properly learning this famous collection of ahadith, then I would dare say that your level of understanding of the true teachings of Islam would be higher than that of most Muslims in the world.

And BTW, there is absolutely no mention of all about things like saints and “Wahhabism” in the aforementioned ahadith collection of Imam Nawawi and so this by itself shows the relative importance (or should I say insignificance) of matters of such nature in the Message of Islam.

 

[wwolverine]

There are no ‘saints’ in Sunni Islam. Just because you’ll find some Sunnis worshipping at shrines doesn’t mean its really part of the religion, Catholics do all sorts of things which aren’t authentically Catholic. The reason why you find a lot of that in Turkey and the Balkans is because those places were Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christian for centuries before becoming Muslim and some practices from their previous religions (like saints) haven’t been weeded out yet.

There is something approaching sainthood in Shi’a Islam with their veneration of the descendents of the Prophet Muhammad, who they believe to be the rightful leaders of Muslims.

I believe the question is purely based on Islam, ( What makes Islamic saint). So why bring Catholic or Christians in this discussion? Islam believes that Christians believe in false teachings as the Holy Bible is not a word of God.

The other thing which makes me wonder is that the people from Turkey and Balkans were originally Christians who were forced to become muslims and hence still stick to their customs? If not they would have given the customes along with the religion when they converted, if it was done with love isnt it?

 

[hamba2han]

For anyone who wishes to learn about the beliefs of Sunni Islam, I would suggest to spend a bit of time reading this very comprehensive crash course on the subject.

By properly learning this famous collection of ahadith, then I would dare say that your level of understanding of the true teachings of Islam would be higher than that of most Muslims in the world.

And BTW, there is absolutely no mention of all about things like saints and “Wahhabism” in the aforementioned ahadith collection of Imam Nawawi and so this by itself shows the relative importance (or should I say insignificance) of matters of such nature in the Message of Islam.

I need to make a correction here to my post:

By properly learning this famous collection of ahadith, then I would dare say that your level of understanding of the true teachings of Islam would, God-willing, be higher than that of most Muslims in the world.

True understanding of Islam is really in the hands of the Lord and so we need to constantly supplicate to Him in order to enable us to learn and understand His Truth.

 

[Contarini]

Intercession/Tawwasul of saints is NOT part of Islam per (Quran 39:43) as shown above.

But clearly many Muslims disagree with you. I am interested in what they have to say.

If you want to say that they aren’t “real Muslims,” that’s your prerogative. But I have no reason to believe your interpretation of the Qur’an over that of a Sufi. I don’t really care what the Qur’an says anyway. If a Sufi thinks that the Qur’an allows asking for the intercession of the saints, then that’s part of Islam, even if I, as a non-Muslim, think that the Wahhabis have better exegetical arguments. To me Islam is a historical reality, and I analyze it that way.

But given how often fundamentalist Christians claim that the Bible “clearly” prohibits something, and how rarely their understanding of the Bible is adequate, I am highly dubious about your claims concerning the Qur’an and the hadith.

There are plenty of Protestants who would claim that the Bible prohibits asking for the intercession of the saints as well. Yet such a practice is clearly a part of historic, mainstream Christianity. And I myself believe that it is theologically justified, and that the Biblical texts cited to the contrary are being misused.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I think we have established that Sunni Muslims do not, on the whole, venerate saints

Where has this been established? There have been a number of citations from the Qur’an and the hadith. But of course this is completely worthless as a method of establishing what Sunni Muslims actually do. All it establishes is what Sam and some other folks with a certain kind of Islamic background think Sunni Muslims ought to do.

I haven’t seen any evidence yet showing that most Sunnis accept the Wahhabi reading of the texts in question. There certainly are shrines to saints all over the Sunni world–I don’t think anyone disputes that. Someone is using them, right? It’s just that those who have been indoctrinated by the Wahhabis insist that these people are “not real Sunni Muslims,” just as fundamentalists claim that Catholics are not real Christians.

Edwin

 

[CKing]

Yes, any Muslim who build a shrine OR put someone between him and Allah is doing a sin according to Sunni Islam, so all those countries you mentioned if they have some Muslims whom are doing such practices then yes they are sinning, however, in addition to the Sahih Bukhari provided earlier and the Sahih Muslim provided by Kadaveri, here is prohibition from Quran itself:

(Quran 7:194):
“Verily those whom ye call upon besides Allah are servants like unto you: Call upon them, and let them listen to your prayer, if ye are (indeed) truthful!”

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ تَدْعُونَ مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ عِبَادٌ أَمْثَالُكُمْ فَادْعُوهُمْ فَلْيَسْتَجِيبُوا لَكُمْ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
​

(Quran 39:43):
"What! Do they take for intercessors others besides Allah? Say: “Even if they have no power whatever and no intelligence?”

أَمِ اتَّخَذُوا مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ شُفَعَاءَ قُلْ أَوَلَوْ كَانُوا لا يَمْلِكُونَ شَيْئاً وَلا يَعْقِلُونَ
​

(Quran 17:56-57):
Say: Cry unto those (saints and angels) whom ye assume (to be gods) beside Him, yet they have no power to rid you of misfortune nor to change. Those unto whom they cry seek the way of approach to their Lord, which of them shall be the nearest; they hope for His mercy and they fear His doom. Lo! the doom of thy Lord is to be shunned.

قُلِ ادْعُوا الَّذِينَ زَعَمْتُمْ مِنْ دُونِهِ فَلَا يَمْلِكُونَ كَشْفَ الضُّرِّ عَنْكُمْ وَلَا تَحْوِيلًا أُولَئِكَ الَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ يَبْتَغُونَ إِلَى رَبِّهِمُ الْوَسِيلَةَ أَيُّهُمْ أَقْرَبُ وَيَرْجُونَ رَحْمَتَهُ وَيَخَافُونَ عَذَابَهُ إِنَّ عَذَابَ رَبِّكَ كَانَ مَحْذُورًا
​

Intercession/Tawwasul of saints is NOT part of Islam per (Quran 39:43) as shown above.

lol ok lets try this again.

first of all those verses are about ascribing partners to Allah which is NOT the same as veneration of saints. maybe you think its all semantics and philosophical core of the verse applies to saints as well… fine. point is THE SUBJECT IS NOT ISLAMIC POLEMICAL DEBATES BUT INSTEAD ISLAMIC REALITIES.

2ndly this all ties into the no true scotsman… fallacy which seems to be something hard to understand for my muslim compatriots. your denying claim A for party B and when confronted with evidence of A, you end up denying the authenticity of party B.

By properly learning this famous collection of ahadith, then I would dare say that your level of understanding of the true teachings of Islam would, God-willing, be higher than that of most Muslims in the world.

How are they clearly “Wahabi”? Nothing presented to you has been from anything but totally mainstream Sunni sources, another one for you:

Jundub reported: I heard from the Messenger of God five days before his death… “Beware of those who preceded you and used to take the graves of their prophets and righteous men as places of worship. You must not take graves as mosques; I forbid you to do that.” (Sahih Muslim 4:1083).

Tawasul is remembrance of God, not praying to ‘saints’ for intercession.

the reason i call this wahabism is because instead of giving sources from fiqh (islamic law i.e. rulings from the 4 schools) you and your brethren insist on quoting hadith which is the essence of the wahabi cult (private interpretation).

this discussion will end very quickly if you can answer this question:

DO THE FOUR SCHOOLS OF ISLAMIC LAW (Hanafi, Maliki, Hanbali, Shafi’i) PROHIBIT INTERCESSION OF SAINTS (Tawwasul)?

if the answer the YES then you’re right and i’m wrong and indeed all these so-called muslims are heretics.

…BUT if the answer is anything other than yes then this discussion is over.

 

[CKing]

Where has this been established? There have been a number of citations from the Qur’an and the hadith. But of course this is completely worthless as a method of establishing what Sunni Muslims actually do. All it establishes is what Sam and some other folks with a certain kind of Islamic background think Sunni Muslims ought to do.

I haven’t seen any evidence yet showing that most Sunnis accept the Wahhabi reading of the texts in question. There certainly are shrines to saints all over the Sunni world–I don’t think anyone disputes that. Someone is using them, right? It’s just that those who have been indoctrinated by the Wahhabis insist that these people are “not real Sunni Muslims,” just as fundamentalists claim that Catholics are not real Christians.

Edwin

actually its not much of an argument among muslims. our islamic colleagues on the forums rely on general non-muslim ignorance to push their claims.

ummah.net/Al_adaab/tawas_nuh.html

 

[Linda_Marie]

Well, I guess we’re back to the original question again. The shrines exist, someone built them, even at great expense, and many Muslims visit them, despite some factions declaring shrines and sainthood anathema.

So, I was wondering - what makes an Islamic Saint? What are the attributes of sainthood for Islam? How does one get declared a saint or get a shrine erected?

Are they really all related to Mohammad or do they include those considered to be exemplary holy men?

 

[CKing]

Well, I guess we’re back to the original question again. The shrines exist, someone built them, even at great expense, and many Muslims visit them, despite some factions declaring shrines and sainthood anathema.

Are they really all related to Mohammad or do they include those considered to be exemplary holy men?

this is a relatively small list of shrines associated with saintly personalities in islam including biblical prophets
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziyarat

there doesnt seem to be a consensus or even a formal process of sainthood and even the links to the prophet are generally retroactively added to enhance saintliness. shias certainly have their 12 imams and a few related personalities but the majority of these saints and their followers are sunnis. though i believe the answer to your question about what exactly makes a muslim saint lies in sufism.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wali

 

[Linda_Marie]

Thank you, CKing, and elwill, who also pointed me towards the Awliya.

Are there any female wali or Islamic saints with shrines built to them?

(besides the Fatima al-Masumeh Shrine in Qom. Did she have any claim to piety or was it just because she was the daughter of the 12th Imam?)

 

[Sam_777]

DO THE FOUR SCHOOLS OF ISLAMIC LAW (Hanafi, Maliki, Hanbali, Shafi’i) PROHIBIT INTERCESSION OF SAINTS (Tawwasul)?

Those are Islamic madhhabs/jurisprudence which complement the Islamic law, which means that they agree with the fundamentals of Islam but differ with the jurisprudence/interpretations.

Although not all of those 4 madhhabs prohibit tawwasul, but keep in mind that Muslims ARE not obliged to only follow those 4 madhhabs (because there are many others madhhabs beside them) AND they are not obliged to follow everything those 4 madhhabs teach, that is why here in Saudi Arabia we don’t refer to any madhhab (even when you hear sometimes that we are Hanbalis or Wahabbis) we simply call ourselves just Sunni Muslims who follow the early practice of Muhammed’s followers (aka Salafi/people of hadith), simply because during those earlly days there wasn’t a single madhhab of what we have nowadays.

 

[Contarini]

ARE

not obliged to only follow those 4 madhhabs (because there are many others madhhabs beside them) AND they are not obliged to follow everything those 4 madhhabs teach, that is why here in Saudi Arabia we don’t refer to any madhhab (even when you hear sometimes that we are Hanbalis or Wahabbis)

Sam–it’s the rejection of the authority of the madhhabs that makes you Wahhabis and distinguishes you from traditional Sunni Islam.

Wahhabi Islam was originally influenced by the Hanbali madhhab, I believe. But like later “Salafi” and “modernist” forms of Islam (the two are not as sharply opposed as you would think–indeed originally they were more or less synonymous, according to Esposito and some other scholars), Wahhabi Islam declares itself independent of the traditional madhhabs, as you point out.

Edwin