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Edward_H
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Heaven is incompatible with our nature.
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atheistgirl
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mcrts
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Heaven and Hell are not the finish line, but the race we run every day. Every time we sin, we choose to severe ties with God. When we do not choose God’s side, whose side do we choose? There is no middle ground. We either choose God, or the Devil and his demons.
Also, God will not force you to be with Him. He wants all of us to be with Him of course. But He also gives us free will to choose. So God does not send us to Hell. We send ourselves to Hell.
Also, God will not force you to be with Him. He wants all of us to be with Him of course. But He also gives us free will to choose. So God does not send us to Hell. We send ourselves to Hell.
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snarflemike
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I can understand this position, truly I can. But let’s take away the concept of “punished” and say that heaven is 100% God, and hell is 0% God, and each person is free to choose whether they want all God or no God. Is it wrong to give them that choice? Even if no God means by definition nothing good, and can thus well be understood as eternal punishment and torment?Nothing.
No human, regardless of what they have done in their life on earth, deserves to be punished and if you believe the accounts of some Saints, suffer indescribable torture, for eternity.
Sarah x
To put it another way, should God force people into heaven against their will? And if he did force people, would it be heaven for them, or would THAT be even worse hell for them?
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snarflemike
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I see this more clearly as I get older. The road to heaven is heaven. Even the simplest things, or the briefest interactions with other people, can bring on what I can only describe as a foretaste of heaven.
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CaptFun
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LOL.
Sounds harsh but … Sarah may be right:– nobody needs that many Tubas
– “Let the man with two tubas give to the man who has none …”
God is merciful. Probably just a bit of Purgatory for this guy. Maybe being subjected to bagpipe music at close range for at least an hour. :coolinoff:
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jochoa
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Humans deserve hell because they are not as loving as God. Fortunately for us, He came from Heaven to show us how to Love as He Loves, so that we may get out of Hell.
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atheistgirl
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Purgatory indeed
I can go with that I think.
If after death, one is confronted with the Deity who is the God of Christianity and they still don’t want to be anywhere near Him, then that’s their choice.
They chose the absence of God rather than the presence of God.
I’m not sure how that’s a ‘‘hell’’ for them in that case, since it’s their choice and presumably they’re happy with it.
I know when I die if I’m confronted with God I’ll say ‘’
Yikes! You’re real 
How cool is that 
. OK, where’s my Mom and Dad, and my Grandparents? I’ve got so much to tell them, oh, and my room? I need to freshen up. That cosmic radiation plays havoc with my skin ’’Sarah x
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murraymuzz
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Actually what you said there is the Orthodox (I mean Orthodox Church) understanding of hell, separation from God is considered the worst torment any human can experience.Purgatory indeed
I can go with that I think.
If after death, one is confronted with the Deity who is the God of Christianity and they still don’t want to be anywhere near Him, then that’s their choice.
They chose the absence of God rather than the presence of God.
I’m not sure how that’s a ‘‘hell’’ for them in that case, since it’s their choice and presumably they’re happy with it.
I know when I die if I’m confronted with God I’ll say ‘’
Sarah x
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atheistgirl
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murraymuzz
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Ok well for starters stabbing myself in the hand is going to hurt, just because I chose to do that doesn’t make it not hurt. And as many others have pointed out, hell really is a choice.How, if that is what they want and choose
Sarah x
Now a few quotes for you to ponder at your leisure.
“Scholasticism distinguishes a double element in the punishment of hell: the poena damni (pain of loss) and the poena sensus (pain of sense). The former corresponds to the aversion from God inherent in grievous sin, the latter the conversion to the creature.”
“The poena damni, which is the essence of the punishment of hell, consists in exclusion from the Beatific Vision. Cf. Mt. 25:41: “Depart from me you cursed!” Mt. 25:12: “I know you not!” 1 Cor. 6:9: “Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God:” Luke 13:27; 14:24; Apoc. 22:15. St. Augustine, Enchir. 112.”
Ott, L. (1957). Fundamentals of Catholic dogma (480). St. Louis: B. Herder Book Company.
Poena Sensus consists in the suffering which is caused by outside material things (it is also called the positive punishment of hell). The Holy Scriptures speak often of the fire of hell, to which the damned are consigned; they describe hell as a place where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth—a picture of sorrow and of despair.
Ott, L. (1957). Fundamentals of Catholic dogma (481). St. Louis: B. Herder Book Company.
The pain of loss is the feeling of regret for the folly which threw away a great and lasting good for the sake of a petty and trifling pleasure. It is expressed in the words of Wisdom: “We fools esteemed their life madness, and their end without honour; behold, how they are numbered among the children of God.” (Wisdom 5:4, 5.) This contrast between what is and what might have been is a gnawing pain of the mind, which is likened to that endured by the man who dies gnawn by worms. (Ecclus. 7:19; St. Mark 9:43, &c.)
Hunter, S. J. (1896). Vol. 3: Outlines of Dogmatic Theology (Third Edition) (436). New York: Benzinger Brothers.
The pain of sense is spoken of as inflicted by fire. Many heretics have refused to admit the distinction, and hold that the fire spoken of in Scripture must be understood in the same way as the worm; a merely metaphorical expression for intense suffering. This opinion cannot be called heretical, although few Catholics have been found to maintain it, and to do so has long been held to be rash, if not erroneous. (n. 328.) As to one particular form of this opinion, it has been declared by the Congregation of the Inquisition (April 30, 1890) that no one who obstinately holds it is capable of absolution; and this decree leaves no room for doubt as to the side that will be taken, if ever a dogmatic definition is issued on the general subject.
Hunter, S. J. (1896). Vol. 3: Outlines of Dogmatic Theology (Third Edition) (436–437). New York: Benzinger Brothers.
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Edward_H
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We don’t have perfect knowledge now. Our mind is clouded by selfishness, pride, vanity, misplaced sensuality. We must then choose and live in this life based on FAITH, and imperfect knowledge. Some people pursue the life of holiness, a daily struggle done side by side with God, to become ever less selfish, more and more charitable, more detached from the things of this world, day by day. Over the years this removes some of the clouds…and we begin to see more clearly the Father who loves us.How, if that is what they want and choose
Sarah x
If we had perfect knowledge in this world…we would choose God and ever lasting life with Him.
When we die…we will be given perfect knowledge…and it’s with these clear eyes that we receive judgment from God. Perfect knowledge and perfect justice.
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jmcrae
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Or, attend a week of Presbyterian funerals.LOL.
– nobody needs that many Tubas
– “Let the man with two tubas give to the man who has none …”
God is merciful. Probably just a bit of Purgatory for this guy. Maybe being subjected to bagpipe music at close range for at least an hour. :coolinoff:
(Bagpipes: Putting the “fun” in “funeral”)
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snarflemike
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Surely we all know people who have made choices which make them very miserable, and yet they persist in those choices.How, if that is what they want and choose
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Elizium23
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Turns out that I didn’t think enough before making my post. I didn’t mean to say that Heaven or Hell are only human institutions. Surely they are spiritual as well. And they are real. I wish to imply nothing less, and I retract the errors in my previous post.
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CaptFun
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I’m not deserving of hell (for THIS) … but … I must admit … our great friends and neighbors of many years (and Presbyterian … at least at one time) have a son who played bagpipes at my Mom and Dad’s funerals (two events) and two more weddings (Catholic). It fits because we are Irish (bagpipes aren’t JUST Scottish)
The bagpipe music lasts about 3 minutes or so (perfect!) … and I think mostly “Amazing Grace” was the song played.
An hour of bagpipe music at close range would make me confess to crimes I’d never heard of … but I must admit … I like bagpipe music in small doses. :irish2: - “Oh Dan-ny Boyyyyy”!
:blushing: - mea culpa. AND I actually love Martin Mull’s novelty solo “Dueling Tubas!”
youtube.com/watch?v=ojqrd7FeXmg
youtube.com/watch?v=a9y4zFEr0V8 <dueling bagpipes (offer it up!)
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fred_conty
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Being human beings, we are only entittled to a natural human happiness because we are not divine by nature. What that means is that justice is fulfilled in making us happy here on earth.
Divine happiness, that which God enjoys, is not ours by rights. And so we really can’t demand it by justice that it be ours. It can only be ours if God gives it to us. And that is what he does when he gives us the gift of supernatural(divine) faith, which entittles us to see God as he really is in all his heavenly glory and joy. We are indeed fortunate to be so blessed by him to be called his sons/daughters and to be a part of his very own family. How great a call that is.
Just some thoughts.
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