What makes it 'right'?

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I moved to Utah a couple of years ago and until then the only thing I knew about mormons was that “they wrote their own bible.” Needless to say, my experience with those of the LDS faith has been negative and has left a very bitter taste in my mouth. So, when I ask this question, my opinion is skewed and prejudicial, but I am not one to believe that entire groups of people are bad - i.e. I believe stereotyping is wrong and not Christian. But my question needs answering because I seek to live among these people in a ‘charitable’ (an LDS ‘catch’ word, I’ve noticed) manner.

But what makes Mormonism the ‘right’ religion? I mentioned that my question was skewed and it has follow-up questions associated with it. 1.) Why is it wrong for mormon kids to assocaite with my Catholic children? - i.e. Why are the mormon kids NOT allowed to be friends with non-mormons. 2.) Why is it that recreational sports programs refuse to include my children in awards/reward celebrations for a good season in a sport? (Both of my children were ‘forgotten’ when, at the end of a sport season, an awards dinner/party was held.

I struggle with these issues and try to give LDS members credit by calling them Christians, but every experience I have had with them has shown me that it is not the same Christian behavior that I was taught. Growing up, my family had the expectation of treating ALL people the same; we were told by parents, grandparents and other adults to be friends with everyone and offer love, kindness, charity, compassion, etc to everyone regardless of their religious beliefs.

I’m just curious…

SG
 
May the Lord bless you with peace and love for you and your family.

I certainly DON’T believe that your experience reflects what LDS people are taught in church. I fear that you have been hurt by individuals who are either confused, misguided or maybe just plain mean. Unfortunately there are poeple in every church who act callous or rude or arrogant.

I don’t think that the LDS church is right at all but I also don’t think that they believe as a church that is acceptable treatment.

I have found that there are Mormons outside of Utah who felt that this was how they were treated by “Utah Mormons” within their own churches…once again though they were cases of individuals misbehaving and not a representation of LDS faith.

All I can say is to reflect on Luke 6:22
“Blessed are you when men hate you,
when they exclude you and insult you
and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.”
 
It isn’t nessesarily a religious thing as much as it is cultural. I think there was a culture of elitism and isolationism that was developed in Utah for whatever reason. My dad tried getting a job in Utah back in the 70s and at every interview he was asked, “whose your bishop?”.

However, I think this happens a lot to religious minorities no matter where you go. Our only recourse is to kill them with kindness.
 
Seeks God:
I moved to Utah a couple of years ago and until then the only thing I knew about mormons was that “they wrote their own bible.” Needless to say, my experience with those of the LDS faith has been negative and has left a very bitter taste in my mouth. So, when I ask this question, my opinion is skewed and prejudicial, but I am not one to believe that entire groups of people are bad - i.e. I believe stereotyping is wrong and not Christian. But my question needs answering because I seek to live among these people in a ‘charitable’ (an LDS ‘catch’ word, I’ve noticed) manner.

But what makes Mormonism the ‘right’ religion? I mentioned that my question was skewed and it has follow-up questions associated with it. 1.) Why is it wrong for mormon kids to assocaite with my Catholic children? - i.e. Why are the mormon kids NOT allowed to be friends with non-mormons. 2.) Why is it that recreational sports programs refuse to include my children in awards/reward celebrations for a good season in a sport? (Both of my children were ‘forgotten’ when, at the end of a sport season, an awards dinner/party was held.

I struggle with these issues and try to give LDS members credit by calling them Christians, but every experience I have had with them has shown me that it is not the same Christian behavior that I was taught. Growing up, my family had the expectation of treating ALL people the same; we were told by parents, grandparents and other adults to be friends with everyone and offer love, kindness, charity, compassion, etc to everyone regardless of their religious beliefs.

I’m just curious…

SG
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I don’t know what part of Utah you live in but the LDS in my neighborhood treat us wonderfully. We’re not excluded in any way. Please don’t judge all LDS by a few. Most, I think, are sincere, good, friendly people.
 
Seeks God:
But what makes Mormonism the ‘right’ religion? I mentioned that my question was skewed and it has follow-up questions associated with it. 1.) Why is it wrong for mormon kids to assocaite with my Catholic children? - i.e. Why are the mormon kids NOT allowed to be friends with non-mormons. 2.) Why is it that recreational sports programs refuse to include my children in awards/reward celebrations for a good season in a sport? (Both of my children were ‘forgotten’ when, at the end of a sport season, an awards dinner/party was held.
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  1. I grew up in a small town (not so small anymore though) where there was a pretty high concentration of both Mormons and Catholics. Honestly, I’ve never encountered Mormons who won’t let their kids associate with those outside the church. In fact, one of my closest friends for over ten years now is Mormon and has been since we went to high school together. The Mormons that I know have always been very warm and welcoming people. Some of them are like family to me. I think it’s really a shame that you’ve had this experience, not only because of the harm that such exclusion inflicts on you and your family but because of the way it has affected your perception of the Mormon church as a whole.
  2. This could just be the result of the particular Mormon community that you have encountered or it could just be forgetfulness. One thing that is true about Mormon communitites is that they are usually very close-knit and for many Mormons, the bulk of their social lives revolve either around the church or involve people from their local church community. It is possible that your kids really were just forgotten because those making the arrangements are just so used to everyone they know being at church on Sunday that they’re not used to going out of their way to inform those people who aren’t. It’s a pretty flimsy excuse, I know, but it may not have been malicious or even intentional.
Are you sure that these mormons you have encountered are LDS and not one of the mormon splinter groups? I don’t want to cast dispersions on any non-LDS mormons because I don’t think that’s any better than stereotyping LDS mormons, but it is possible that one or more of the other mormon sects might have a more isolationist attitude, similar to Menonites (who aren’t really trying to be exclusive either if you understand their faith, but they do tend to keep to themselves).
 
I am fairly sure the LDS in my community see GBH as their prophet, so I don’t think it is a splinter group that is ‘running the show’ so to speak…

I’ve often heard that it’s the “Utah” mormons that act this way, or that it’s just the community I live in; but either way, to me it ends up being an excuse for mistreating people. Like I said before, I’m not the type of person to judge an entire group of people by the actions of a few, but the few are certainly making it difficult to accept them as being Christian when the behavior is distinctly anti-Christian.

SG
 
While I do not wish to “slam” Mormons or anyone else here, I do NOT “accept them as christians”.

I respect their right to their own beliefs and their freedom to worship, I just don’t think that their religion is Christian in the same sense as Catholic.

I accept them as children of God and believe that they should be treated by us as Christ would treat them. I just don’t have the same definition of “Christian” that I believe they do.

Perhaps if you see them as misguided souls it will help you to have patience.
 
It is not right for anyone of any religious leaning to treat others the way that you have been treated.
I think MEP is correct in the fact that LDS announce everything in the Sunday Sacrament meeting, and usually do not have non-members on the call list for notification of events. The only way you could have been notified is if your childrens friends specifically asked that you be called about certain events.
If I were you, I would call the Bishop of the ward you want to be in cluded in, or want your children to be included in, and let them know, so that they may invite you personally to future events. In my experience with events planning, there is a list of members we work from and others are always welcome, but not everyone in the church is aware of what participation non-members are making, and therefore can not recognize them without knowing who they are. The coach should have known, and made you aware of the dinner and awards. It sounds like he dropped the ball, but next time you will know to let them know you are interested in attending the awards dinner at the end of the season.
As far as LDS children not being allowed to play with Catholic children, perhaps that is an individual family who is screwed up, but it is not church policy.
I am really sorry you have had this experience with Mormons, I myself have had similar experiences in all situations, until I became aquainted with the people and got over my initial shyness.
My husband and I feel very isolated in the Parish we have attended for 6 years, and it is made more difficult to get acquainted by the fact that there are 3 masses and not everyone sticks to the same mass every Sunday, as we do. The people shake hands after the Our Father and then do not look us in the eye again. My husband , is Catholic and has needed to feel some warmth and friendship from the Catholics on a personal level, because of his health problems, and because he lived in Italy until 6 years ago and wanted to make friends locally. I was told in this forum that the Catholic Church is not a social club, that we were being" high maintenance" to expect friendship in the Catholic Church. I was told that it is a place to go and meditate and be alone with God, and not make friends and fill social needs.
So I guess Christianity is where you find it in all religions, it is up to the people to act in a Christian way, and people are not perfect, so they often do not act the way we would expect them to act.
Again, sorry you had this sad experience, and I hope things get better this coming year. BJ
 
BJ Colbert:
I was told in this forum that the Catholic Church is not a social club, that we were being" high maintenance" to expect friendship in the Catholic Church. I was told that it is a place to go and meditate and be alone with God, and not make friends and fill social needs.
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I think whoever said that to you was a little harsh (the high maintenance part). However, it really isn’t appropriate to socialize too much before the mass service. Try to think of the mass as being more analogous to the LDS temple ceremonies rather than to the LDS sacrament meeting. From what I understand, the socialization that is common at a sacrament meeting and in the other Sunday meetings is not considered acceptable in the more sacred setting of the temple.

For us, going to mass and receiving the Eucharist is supposed to be a sacred thing. It is a time for reflection and meditation and the church has always kind of frowned on socializing before mass (in the more orthodox parishes at least, I’ve been to some that don’t seem to care at all) as it may disturb those who are in prayer and you really should be preparing for the mass yourself.

That’s not to say that the church doesn’t want to encourage a social community in Catholic parishes. It’s just that the mass is not intended to serve that purpose (though most parishes encourage parishioners to socialize after the mass, and most of the parishes I’ve seen provide social activities (like the traditional coffee and doughnuts) right after the mass is complete). If your husband really wants to socialize more in his parish, I’m sure there are opportunities (unless you go to a really strange parish where no one talks to each other). It’s just that you have to find those opportunities outside of the mass service itself – not usually very far outside (again, there’s always coffee and doughnuts after mass in most parishes), but still outside of the mass which really is a sacred rite. I’ve never encountered a parish where there wasn’t ample opportunity to meet people and socialize and make new friends. It’s just not something we Catholics do when we go to mass.
 
I understand that the LDS people do not know my kids from their church/ward, but the point is that my kids were not participating in LDS programs. My kids were involved in secular sports programs - i.e. the county recreation program. How could there be confusion about including them? They don’t go to your church, then don’t call them to participate in church programs; but if they are part of a non-religious function, then there is no excuse to NOT include them.
 
BJ Colbert:
It is not right for anyone of any religious leaning to treat others the way that you have been treated.
I think MEP is correct in the fact that LDS announce everything in the Sunday Sacrament meeting, and usually do not have non-members on the call list for notification of events. The only way you could have been notified is if your childrens friends specifically asked that you be called about certain events.
If I were you, I would call the Bishop of the ward you want to be in cluded in, or want your children to be included in, and let them know, so that they may invite you personally to future events. In my experience with events planning, there is a list of members we work from and others are always welcome, but not everyone in the church is aware of what participation non-members are making, and therefore can not recognize them without knowing who they are. The coach should have known, and made you aware of the dinner and awards. It sounds like he dropped the ball, but next time you will know to let them know you are interested in attending the awards dinner at the end of the season.
As far as LDS children not being allowed to play with Catholic children, perhaps that is an individual family who is screwed up, but it is not church policy.
I am really sorry you have had this experience with Mormons, I myself have had similar experiences in all situations, until I became aquainted with the people and got over my initial shyness.
My husband and I feel very isolated in the Parish we have attended for 6 years, and it is made more difficult to get acquainted by the fact that there are 3 masses and not everyone sticks to the same mass every Sunday, as we do. The people shake hands after the Our Father and then do not look us in the eye again. My husband , is Catholic and has needed to feel some warmth and friendship from the Catholics on a personal level, because of his health problems, and because he lived in Italy until 6 years ago and wanted to make friends locally. I was told in this forum that the Catholic Church is not a social club, that we were being" high maintenance" to expect friendship in the Catholic Church. I was told that it is a place to go and meditate and be alone with God, and not make friends and fill social needs.
So I guess Christianity is where you find it in all religions, it is up to the people to act in a Christian way, and people are not perfect, so they often do not act the way we would expect them to act.
Again, sorry you had this sad experience, and I hope things get better this coming year. BJ
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BJ,

Our parish has coffee and donuts in the parish hall after almost every Mass. It’s a great time to socialize and get to know people. There are probably many other opportunities to socialize at various parish activities. The bottom line is that you need to socialize at activities other than Mass if you expect to find friendship at most Catholic parishes. Hopefully that is an option for your husband.
 
Seeks God:
I understand that the LDS people do not know my kids from their church/ward, but the point is that my kids were not participating in LDS programs. My kids were involved in secular sports programs - i.e. the county recreation program. How could there be confusion about including them? They don’t go to your church, then don’t call them to participate in church programs; but if they are part of a non-religious function, then there is no excuse to NOT include them.
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Who knows, Seeks God. However, even in Utah what you are talking about is Supreme Court material as it is religious discrimination in the secular world. It happens.
 
SeeksGod,
I have been born and raised Catholic in Utah so I understand your feelings as well as how you children feel. I have been told “my mom says I can’t play with you because you’re not Mormon.” I also remember in grade school, the class was sitting on the floor and the teacher was leading us in songs. She said “You all know this one” and started singning a song to which all the students-except me-joined in. When I asked one of my friends when we learned that song, she said “Didn’t you learn it in primary?” (primary is the LDS sunday school).
I can’t give you an explanation or a scenario as to why your children were left out of the ceremony. All I can do is say I understand how you and your children feel. If I come up with any suggestions, I’ll let you know.
Maggie
 
Seeks God:
I understand that the LDS people do not know my kids from their church/ward, but the point is that my kids were not participating in LDS programs. My kids were involved in secular sports programs - i.e. the county recreation program. How could there be confusion about including them? They don’t go to your church, then don’t call them to participate in church programs; but if they are part of a non-religious function, then there is no excuse to NOT include them.
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Ah much different scenario than I assumed. The County recreation program needs to be called to account on this situation, not the LDS Church. Even though the LDS might be the majority, the County is still non secular and there should have been no confusion at all. It sounds like the county dropped the ball and you should deffinitely pursue this to make sure it does not happen again. If your children were enrolled in the program, then they should have been included in the whole program to include dinner and awards. The LDS Church does not have anything to do with this program, there just happens to be a lot of LDS in the town you are in and they participate and sometimes are the leaders. They need to be called to task on this problem.
Sorry, for the misunderstanding. BJ
 
Seeks God:
I moved to Utah a couple of years ago and until then the only thing I knew about mormons was that “they wrote their own bible.” Needless to say, my experience with those of the LDS faith has been negative and has left a very bitter taste in my mouth. So, when I ask this question, my opinion is skewed and prejudicial, but I am not one to believe that entire groups of people are bad - i.e. I believe stereotyping is wrong and not Christian. But my question needs answering because I seek to live among these people in a ‘charitable’ (an LDS ‘catch’ word, I’ve noticed) manner.

But what makes Mormonism the ‘right’ religion? I mentioned that my question was skewed and it has follow-up questions associated with it. 1.) Why is it wrong for mormon kids to assocaite with my Catholic children? - i.e. Why are the mormon kids NOT allowed to be friends with non-mormons. 2.) Why is it that recreational sports programs refuse to include my children in awards/reward celebrations for a good season in a sport? (Both of my children were ‘forgotten’ when, at the end of a sport season, an awards dinner/party was held.

I struggle with these issues and try to give LDS members credit by calling them Christians, but every experience I have had with them has shown me that it is not the same Christian behavior that I was taught. Growing up, my family had the expectation of treating ALL people the same; we were told by parents, grandparents and other adults to be friends with everyone and offer love, kindness, charity, compassion, etc to everyone regardless of their religious beliefs.

I’m just curious…

SG
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I don’t want to engage in a protracted apologetic for Mormon insularity, but it is a natural consequence of the fact that so much of LDS religious life centers already around their Church. They associate more with other Church members as a result, grow closer to Church members than to their secular associates, and frankly develop some in-group biases and prejudices about out-group people. They may WANT to be friendly and equitable to all, in their own eyes they may believe that they ARE behaving in such a fashion–but to those who are not already part of their group, it is obvious they are NOT.

The same thing happens by the way in race and ethnic groups. Blacks accuse Whites of behaving in an exclusive manner, Whites accused Blacks of the same, both think similarly of Hispanics, Jewish people, Orientals, first-generation Eastern Europeans, and so forth. Because Mormons are purportedly Christian, we hold them more-accountable than we might hold a member of an ethnic group for not reaching out to others, but it is a fact that one sees similar behavior in other religious groups where minorities come into contact with overwhelming majorities. It doesn’t help that Mormons often assume that attitudes critical of their Church coming from outsiders are due to bigotry against them–it leads LDS to withdraw from anyone who makes comments perceived as criticism.
 
I can tell you that one of the main reasons we left Utah was to get my daughter out of that atmosphere. She was excluded and avoided because she was not Mormon, and since Mormons ran most organizations in the small towns and rural counties, the non-Mormon kids were frequently “forgotten” or talked down to. My daughter had to be involved in activities run by Catholics or non-Mormons just so she wouldn’t be an outsider.

It may be that it was more of a “small-town” thing than a Mormon thing, but the town we lived in was about half-and-half locals and newcomers, and I didn’t see any problems for the new kids as long as they went to the right church.

I always felt that if we had not moved to a small town, and had instead remained in SLC, we would have been less likely to move away from the state. Still, even in the less-Mormon cities and large towns, it was hard to fit in if you were not the dominant religion, and there was a tremendous amount of pressure placed on teens when it came time to start dating.

Since leaving the state, I have encountered an entirely different breed of Mormons, and while I still see some degree of insularity among them, it is not as hard-core as it was in the Land of the Saints.
 
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MEP:
Are you sure that these mormons you have encountered are LDS and not one of the mormon splinter groups? I don’t want to cast dispersions on any non-LDS mormons because I don’t think that’s any better than stereotyping LDS mormons, but it is possible that one or more of the other mormon sects might have a more isolationist attitude, similar to Menonites (who aren’t really trying to be exclusive either if you understand their faith, but they do tend to keep to themselves).
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MEP,

Just an observation, I think it’s important to distinguish Mennonites from the Amish. Mennonites, with the exception of a couple of Old Order Mennonite bodies, are far from isolationists, being very involved in community and social service issues and programs. The closely-related Amish, however, do tend to separate themselves from the “English” (non-Amish), to the extent that they can do so.

Joe
 
I’d like to compliment all those posting on this topic for the charitable and civil quality of the discussion 👍

Joe
 
Joe Monahan:
MEP,

Just an observation, I think it’s important to distinguish Mennonites from the Amish. Mennonites, with the exception of a couple of Old Order Mennonite bodies, are far from isolationists, being very involved in community and social service issues and programs. The closely-related Amish, however, do tend to separate themselves from the “English” (non-Amish), to the extent that they can do so.

Joe
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Well, there you go. Perhaps the Mennonites I encountered were of one of those older orders. I also thought that Amish were a subset of Mennonites, but apparently I was mistaken there.
 
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MEP:
Well, there you go. Perhaps the Mennonites I encountered were of one of those older orders. I also thought that Amish were a subset of Mennonites, but apparently I was mistaken there.
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MEP,

Actually, you are correct in that the Amish and Mennonites have a common Anabaptist origin. The Amish derived from the Mennonites, but generally would not any longer describe themselves as Mennonite. There is generally respect between the two and the Amish often rely on Mennonite neighbors for such things as emergency telephone use, rides to places when it isn’t practical to do by buggy because of distance, weather, or other circumstances, etc.

Mennonites themselves range from folks whom you could not visually distinguish from your next door neighbor through a spectrum that ranges through the Weaverland or “black bumper Mennonites” (in the days when all auto bumpers were chrome, these Mennonites would drive but could be distinguished by the fact that the bumpers of their cars were painted black, as well as hubcaps, grilles, etc., to eliminate any suggestion of worldly vanity; the cars were themselves were also black) to Old Order Mennonites, whose garb is similar to that favored by the Amish, but conduct their religious services in a church - rather than at home - and are usually somewhat less restricted than the Amish in the use of modern technology.

On the Amish side, the most liberal are the New Order Amish and the Church Amish. Usually, both permit some very limited use of technology, but still forbid automobiles; the latter worship in dedicated church buildings

The so-called Beachy Amish Mennonites are the point of overlap between Mennonites and Amish. They adopt modern technology in many respects, including automobile use and, although garbed similarly, allow the use of zippers, as well as being less strict with regard to application of the Meidung or shunning of those in disfavor with the Church.

Joe
 
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