What makes somebody a "Traditional" Catholic

  • Thread starter Thread starter thewanderer
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Change is not the problem, or even willingness to change or resistance to change. People wanting to determine for themselves what changes are good and what are not, that’s the problem.

-Tim-
Thank you for this, Tim.

I read the linked article as well, and thought that it was well-written and tried to answer a very difficult question.
However, I kept coming back to this little statement-
We are what you once were.
We believe what you once believed.
We worship like you once worshipped.
If you believe you were wrong then, what makes you believe you are right now.
If you were right then, we are right now.
And I said to myslef- this is the problem!
The attitude that ***“I am right and you are wrong”. ***

I am sad to say “thewanderer”, that from my experience of the world,
it is this attitude that may be the “unifying factor” you are trying to identify.
I sure hope not! :o
 
I guess the way I see a traditional Catholic, or what I have come to think others mean when talking about a traditional Catholic, is one who does not follow the move of the culture but prefers the constancy of the Church and is bothered by the turning away of so much of the richness of the Catholic faith just because the culture complains about or those of other denominations don’t understand it and thus interpret it wrongly and spread false accusations about it. I think a traditional Catholic is one who wants themselves and the Church to remain faithful to the traditions past on to us and not move with the world.
I really like the way you have put this.
 
And I said to myslef- this is the problem!
The attitude that ***“I am right and you are wrong”. ***

I am sad to say “thewanderer”, that from my experience of the world,
it is this attitude that may be the “unifying factor” you are trying to identify.
I sure hope not! :o
In my experience most people who hold a belief think that they are right and the people who disagree with them are wrong.

Oneofthewomen, don’t you believe what you believe because you believe it is right? 🙂
 
In my experience most people who hold a belief think that they are right and the people who disagree with them are wrong.

Oneofthewomen, don’t you believe what you believe because you believe it is right? 🙂
Just because I think I may be right does not automatically make me believe that you are wrong. 🙂
 
Just because I think I may be right does not automatically make me believe that you are wrong. 🙂
Then maybe trads are people who believe in the law of non-contradiction.
“In classical logic, the law of non-contradiction (LNC) (or the principle of non-contradiction (PNC), or the principle of contradiction) is the second of the so-called three classic laws of thought. It states that contradictory statements cannot both at the same time be true, e.g. the two propositions “A is B” and “A is not B” are mutually exclusive.” (from wikipedia)
 
I kept coming back to this little statement-

We are what you once were.
We believe what you once believed.
We worship like you once worshipped.
If you believe you were wrong then, what makes you believe you are right now.
If you were right then, we are right now.

And I said to myslef- this is the problem!
The attitude that ***“I am right and you are wrong”. ***

I am sad to say “thewanderer”, that from my experience of the world,
it is this attitude that may be the “unifying factor” you are trying to identify.
I sure hope not! :o
I hope not too. I haven’t been able to keep up with this thread as another thread was occupying my time, but since my article has been discussed a bit I thought I’d weigh in now.

In some measure, Tim’s examples actually demonstrate my point. Change, even change for the better, is disruptive and prejudicial to the common good, as St. Thomas teaches. In the end the good may outweigh the disruption, but change is not seen as possessing some inherent good.

So then who decides? Well, obviously with respect to doctrinal developments ultimately the Magisterium decides.

But I think we can still take away some lessons from the post-conciliar period. At the very least, if the Church puts some teaching before it the faithful, it would be best to have the lines along which it can be harmonized with the Church’s prior teaching worked out ahead of time. Surely we can agree that there is something unpleasant with the need for theological talks into how to reconcile certain aspects of Vatican II with prior Church teaching. One would have hoped that this harmony would have been self-evident, or at the very least worked out ahead of time and presented along with the teaching.

And yet we can look at certain aspects of the teaching of Vatican II and find that it is not at all self-evident how they can be reconciled with what the Church taught before. And we do not yet have official explanations for some of these. (Please God, we will.)

But notice that the Church is not saying that certain Catholics, “traditionalists”, are automatically wrong and bad for raising these questions. Catholic are permitted by the Church, in a spirit of humility and due deference to the Magisterium, to say, “I do not see how such and such can be reconciled with Tradition and in conscience I can only hold to it conditionally, that is, as interpreted in harmony with that Tradition.” This is very different from what “traditionalists” have been told by many of their fellow Catholics, who have reproached them for their supposed disobedience and lack of fidelity to the Magisterium.

And then there are a host of other changes that come at a sub-doctrinal level, at a more pastoral level. These changes too have real potential to disrupt the common good. Surely it is all the more legitimate, again in a spirit of humility and filial respect, to point out that some of the pastoral approaches officially undertaken have disrupted the spiritual equilibrium of many Catholics and therefore represent in the aggregate a harmful change. Some Catholics, in their enthusiasm for Vatican II and their desire to be faithful, have I think rather uncritically embraced every single pastoral directive as infallibly good and helpful.

One can trot out all sorts of specifics as illustrations–they have been debated at great length here on CAF. But again, to me at least, it is this attitude toward change itself (God willing not an “I’m right and you’re wrong” approach) that characterizes a traditionalist.
 
Then maybe trads are people who believe in the law of non-contradiction.
“In classical logic, the law of non-contradiction (LNC) (or the principle of non-contradiction (PNC), or the principle of contradiction) is the second of the so-called three classic laws of thought. It states that contradictory statements cannot both at the same time be true, e.g. the two propositions “A is B” and “A is not B” are mutually exclusive.” (from wikipedia)
If you believe that both the EF and the OF are legitimate forms of the mass and that they are both found to be useful to people in their efforts to grow closer to God, then, even though you might prefer one, you will have no problems with others preceding the other.

I think what oneofthewomen is thinking of is the idea of some traditionalists that the EF is the real form of the mass, whether they go so far as to believe it is illegitimate or simply that every single latin rite catholic would be better off if they attended it… I assume she did not intend this to be tank personally.
 
If you believe that both the EF and the OF are legitimate forms of the mass and that they are both found to be useful to people in their efforts to grow closer to God, then, even though you might prefer one, you will have no problems with others preceding the other.

I think what oneofthewomen is thinking of is the idea of some traditionalists that the EF is the real form of the mass, whether they go so far as to believe it is illegitimate or simply that every single latin rite catholic would be better off if they attended it… I assume she did not intend this to be tank personally.
I accept that the OF is a valid Catholic Mass, but I think the problems with it are so severe that I think it should be abrogated. I acknowledge that there are good Catholics (better than I am) who prefer this Mass and do not consider a preference for this Mass a reason to look down on anyone. But I think the OF is seriously problematic.
 
I get that I can’t pull “I’m right; you’re wrong” on this topic. I’m not about to tell Pope Benedict that he was wrong in SP. But, even so, this does not address my strong misgivings about the OF.
 
I get that I can’t pull “I’m right; you’re wrong” on this topic. I’m not about to tell Pope Benedict that he was wrong in SP. But, even so, this does not address my strong misgivings about the OF.
Thats fine, thats kind of getting off topic anyway… I kind of helped lead off topic this time too, sorry. 🙂
 
So, it seems clear that ‘traditional’ catholics dislike most of the changes since vatican II, what is the reason for this? That might help to determine what it is that is at the heart of this difference. Like I’ve said previously, I think change for the sake of change is always a bad thing. Change needs to have a good reason behind it… but maybe ‘traditionalists’ have a more stringent view of what kind of change is allowed?

I think part of my confusion comes from the fact that, like I said, I also believe traditions and continuity are very important for the Church, and that change, for its own sake, is not a good thing, but it seems like the difference is that ‘traditionalists’ have a stricter understanding of what kind of change is allowable/the exact role traditions and continuity are meant to play?

Does anyone else think that we might be able to p(name removed by moderator)oint the answer to my questions by looking at these questions?
 
You know I’ve said this before but let me repeat again:
  • I totally understand those of you who say you should be called traditional Catholics because you are faithful to the magisterium, attend reverent liturgies, etc.
  • Like it or not, the term “traditiona Catholic” has taken on its own meaning.
  • Priests who are part of “traditional orders” use it to mean a certain thing.
    – People who refer to themselves as traditional Catholics mean it a certain way
    – people who are not traddies, but refer to those “trads” know exactly what they mean.
Language develops and the term 'traditional Catholic" is usually associated with some ot the things others have listed here (I don’t need to repeat them).
 
I’m happy to be a traditionalist. Even a rad-trad, partly because of the Trad Jazz era, when grown men with Van-Dike beards would say “It’s trad, dad!” 😃
 
You know I’ve said this before but let me repeat again:
  • I totally understand those of you who say you should be called traditional Catholics because you are faithful to the magisterium, attend reverent liturgies, etc.
  • Like it or not, the term “traditiona Catholic” has taken on its own meaning.
  • Priests who are part of “traditional orders” use it to mean a certain thing.
    – People who refer to themselves as traditional Catholics mean it a certain way
    – people who are not traddies, but refer to those “trads” know exactly what they mean.
Language develops and the term 'traditional Catholic" is usually associated with some ot the things others have listed here (I don’t need to repeat them).
I understand what you’re saying, which is why I’m hoping to get help in understanding what exactly it is that trads mean by this word, I really mean this as an honest question, not as some sort of rant about the fact that the name is used specifically that way (although I will admit it can be frustrating… Though mostly when it just leads to great division among otherwise great Catholics)
Do you have any thoughts on what the underlying principle is?
 
. Change needs to have a good reason behind it… but maybe ‘traditionalists’ have a more stringent view of what kind of change is allowed?

I think part of my confusion comes from the fact that, like I said, I also believe traditions and continuity are very important for the Church, and that change, for its own sake, is not a good thing, but it seems like the difference is that ‘traditionalists’ have a stricter understanding of what kind of change is allowable/the exact role traditions and continuity are meant to play?

Does anyone else think that we might be able to p(name removed by moderator)oint the answer to my questions by looking at these questions?
I think you have answered your own question right there. I think a lot of the answers here have answered it very well. Similar to what you have just said, I posted previously that a traditional Catholic is one who does not follow the move of the culture but prefers the constancy of the Church and is bothered by the turning away of so much of the richness of the Catholic faith just because the culture complains about it or those of other denominations don’t understand it and thus interpret it wrongly and spread false accusations about it. I think a traditional Catholic is one who wants themselves and the Church to remain faithful to the traditions past on to us and not move with the world.

Like I said, I think you have answered your own question: 🙂
. Change needs to have a good reason behind it… but maybe ‘traditionalists’ have a more stringent view of what kind of change is allowed?
. “‘traditionalists’ have a stricter understanding of what kind of change is allowable/the exact role traditions and continuity are meant to play”
 
=thewanderer;9046273]What is it that makes someone a “Traditional Catholic”. Please don’t give the answer that it is just someone who follows the ancient traditions of the Church. There are many people who follow ancient traditions of the Church and still attend the OF mass, they just don’t follow all of the traditions followed by “Traditional” Catholics. “Traditional” Catholics prefer the EF of the mass. What else seperates “Traditional” Catholics from from other Catholics?
I am inclined to think that the differences stem from a different spirituality, and so a slightly different preference in the actual traditions followed… does anyone else have any (name removed by moderator)ut on this?
IMO 😃

Being a RIGHTLY Informed, fully practicing Roman Catholic.👍

God Bless,
Pat
 
What is it that makes someone a “Traditional Catholic”. Please don’t give the answer that it is just someone who follows the ancient traditions of the Church. There are many people who follow ancient traditions of the Church and still attend the OF mass, they just don’t follow all of the traditions followed by “Traditional” Catholics. “Traditional” Catholics prefer the EF of the mass. What else seperates “Traditional” Catholics from from other Catholics?

I am inclined to think that the differences stem from a different spirituality, and so a slightly different preference in the actual traditions followed… does anyone else have any (name removed by moderator)ut on this?
What in the world makes you think that the term “traditional catholic” can be given a sensible meaning? The more you study christian history, the less prospect can be given to such an endeavour. I recently met a catholic friend who is living the spirit of Ephrem the Syrian - talk about traditional catholic :rolleyes:
 
(snipped) I think a traditional Catholic is one who wants themselves and the Church to remain faithful to the traditions past on to us and not move with the world.
I snipped this because it is a point I want to address directly.
I agree with you that the things of the past need to be preserved, but, alas, time does not stop.
That is the problem I most often experience with the “traditional catholics” I run into. Most of them want time stopped in some “golden age”, and as we all know there never was a “golden age”, every time had it’s own problems & issues.

The things from the past are important, but how we explain and use them may need to be updated,
so that people who know nothing about them can fit them into their lives now in the present time.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top