What makes somebody a "Traditional" Catholic

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What is it that makes someone a “Traditional Catholic”. Please don’t give the answer that it is just someone who follows the ancient traditions of the Church. There are many people who follow ancient traditions of the Church and still attend the OF mass, they just don’t follow all of the traditions followed by “Traditional” Catholics. “Traditional” Catholics prefer the EF of the mass. What else seperates “Traditional” Catholics from from other Catholics?

I am inclined to think that the differences stem from a different spirituality, and so a slightly different preference in the actual traditions followed… does anyone else have any (name removed by moderator)ut on this?
 
“Vatican 2 is bad.”

I’m not joking. I would say the greater proportion of Catholics who define themselves as ‘Traditional’ believe the changes in V2 were not good. Hence the popularity of pre-V2 traditions, such as headcovering, EF masses, opposition to female altar servers, etc.
 
A longing for the “beauty” of long-ago practice, compared to the present time.

ICXC NIKA
 
Hi thewanderer,

1**. We were here first ! **- In the UK there has been a significant influx of Anglican converts during the last 15 years due to the Anglican position on women priests etc. and it is noticeable how they interpret the same beliefs but in a different way, devotion to Mary being an obvious one. So in this context, as a cradle catholic with a Jesuit education, I adhere to catholic traditions that pre-date Anglican traditions by around 1,400 years. It makes me feel ‘traditional’.

**2. We are more spiritual !: **The feeling I get from talking to some Anglican converts is that they think we believe pretty much in the same things, but where they previously followed the Queen as the head of the Church in England, they now take their leadership from the Pope in Rome. They don’t generally seem to know or talk about pre-reformation stuff, and it isn’t part of their conversion course, but they do seem to spend more time on the Old Testament, and talk about the ‘rich tapestry of English prayer and musical development’ that they think Catholics have missed out on since the reformation. I personally feel there is often a lack of unconditional love of neighbour in the context of what I read and hear, with far too much emphasis on the ‘divine right of kings’, and ‘marching to war with God on our side’. All a bit ‘old testament’ feel for my taste.

3. Modern interpretation is less spiritual !:Vatican II arrived with a seismic shift, and I went from singing High Mass in latin, to sitting with a guitar at the side of the altar playing for a choir that sang modern hymns in english.
It was too much, too quick and there were obvious signs of relative values that emerged, which I am still cautious about. I still play classical and taize-style guitar in church entirely by popular demand, including, (and extra-specially- the Sung Rosary, at the request of Pope John-Paul II).

4. Traditional can mean ‘elitist’ and ‘narrow-minded’ and can lead away from the Love of God in the Word: - , however, the only ‘one size fits all’ approach that Jesus preached was to ‘love thy neighbour as thyself’, and He said nothing whatsoever about everything being in latin, hebrew or any other language, indeed, this flies in the face of the Pentecostal message in some respects. Nor did anyone ever record that He sang in plain chant, and given the Jewish pre-disposition for music and dance, I can only imagine that Jesus was no exception to such traditions. What we have witnessed is a series of strategic decisions taken by the Magesterium over 2000 years to define and refine the understandings and wisdom of the New Testament, along with the structure of worship to create a global identity and culture most pleasing to God and His Church.

5. Scientific Definition : So what kind of Catholic am I ? Well I resorted to the Myers-Briggs website and filled in their Spirituality profiler : I learned that there are no less than eight different types of spirituality defined within the human personality, each of which interprets according to some pre-disposed format - traditional Latin, modern English, etc…and it told me that I was a ‘Traditional-Charismatic’ so ther we are, that’s what I am (for what it’s worth).

Summary : All I care about is the teaching of Christ, and two days ago, the Pope said this:
…‘But now we must remember that the Pope is not our ultimate recourse; our ultimate recourse is the Lord and we must look to Him in order to discern, to understand - insofar was we can - something of the message of this second Sunday of Lent"……“Let us not wait for others to bring different messages, which do not lead to authentic life. You yourselves must become missionaries of Christ to your brothers and sisters wherever they live, work, study or pass their free time. … Faith must be lived together, and the parish is the place in which we learn to live our faith as part of the ‘us’ of the Church”.
 
thewanderer said:
What is it that makes someone a “Traditional Catholic”. Please don’t give the answer that it is just someone who follows the ancient traditions of the Church. There are many people who follow ancient traditions of the Church and still attend the OF mass, they just don’t follow all of the traditions followed by “Traditional” Catholics. “Traditional” Catholics prefer the EF of the mass. What else seperates “Traditional” Catholics from from other Catholics?

I am inclined to think that the differences stem from a different spirituality, and so a slightly different preference in the actual traditions followed… does anyone else have any (name removed by moderator)ut on this?
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None of the following are exclusive to traditionalists, but generally you’ll find that, percentage-wise, a greater portion of traditionalists do these than non-traditionalists:

We do not watch TV, nor do we have a TV on a pedestal in the heart of our home (we keep ours under the stairs and roll it out for movies periodically.

We abstain from meat fridays throughout the year.

We wear our sunday best to mass.

We do not talk in the sanctuary (before/after mass or ever) if not necessary (when we attend OF and EF).

We bow towards the alter-Christus when he processes past us at beginning and end (OF & EF).

We kneel before the God of the Universe when we receive Him, and we do so on our tongue, from the consecrated fingers of the Priest (OF and EF).

We maintain the mentality that the Priest is a sacrificer and that his primary purpose and business is offering a sacrifice for us and for our sins and that it is not important for us to be involved in what he is doing, but rather to pray and dispose ourselves to receive the sacrifice. We do not think or speak of the mass as a meal or fellowship gathering (OF & EF).

My wife covers her head in the sanctuary (OF & EF).

My wife generally wear’s traditional women’s clothing (you know what I mean, but to avoid derailing the thread, I’m not going to say it).

We do not immerse ourselves in the popular culture of the world (i.e. we are very picky about movies, music, etc).

The list could go on and on. Again, these things are not exclusive to traditionalists, but among OF/NO Catholics it doesn’t seem as common, percentage wise.
 
🍿

I tend to follow more of the traditional spirituality of the Church, but abhor the label “traditionalist” or the “traditional movement”. I’m just Catholic trying to become as holy and perfect as possible. I just happen to find most of the pre-Vatican II way of doing things makes it more possible for success.
 
I find the name “traditional Catholic” as it often gets used — to be rather a misnomer.

All Catholics are to receive and hand on “Tradition” as part of being Catholic (thus be “traditional” ).

I know the term is used by some…often to denote a preference for the a particular period in Church history but I would love if they found a different one.
 
thewanderer said:
What is it that makes someone a “Traditional Catholic”. Please don’t give the answer that it is just someone who follows the ancient traditions of the Church. There are many people who follow ancient traditions of the Church and still attend the OF mass, they just don’t follow all of the traditions followed by “Traditional” Catholics. “Traditional” Catholics prefer the EF of the mass. What else seperates “Traditional” Catholics from from other Catholics?

I am inclined to think that the differences stem from a different spirituality, and so a slightly different preference in the actual traditions followed… does anyone else have any (name removed by moderator)ut on this?
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Traditional like… in Jewish? 😉

I think we all have some traditional traits. Some have more, some have less, some have very traditional, some have less traditional…

Some have cars, some use their feet like Jesus did 🙂
Some wear pants, some wear dresses like Jesus did… but among men, only few do this so they are mostly modern in this aspect.
Some have a TV or an Internet in the middle of their house or office, while others prefer to do the speaking and hands on thing like the Fathers.
Some use modern medical technology, some get healed in the name of Jesus
Some like Latin, and some prefer the earlier ecclesial language of Hebrew
Some like the late middle age instrument called the organ and stand still in Church… some are more traditional and like to dance like David in front of the ark, and play ón harbs and make a lot of noise like in the really old days…

So anyway, what I wanted to ask is: Traditional compared to what age, what continent and whom? 🙂

Shalom and good day
 
Bookcat said:
I find the name “traditional Catholic” as it often gets used — to be rather a misnomer.

All Catholics are to receive and hand on “Tradition” as part of being Catholic (thus be “traditional” ).

I know the term is used by some…often to denote a preference for the a particular period in Church history but I would love if they found a different one.
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This implies that we picked the term by ourselves. I’m pretty sure it grew out of mutual usage by both sides during and after the council. But by all means we could always go back to Pope John XXIII’s “prophets of gloom”. I wouldn’t mind that. “I’m a prophet of gloom, son, bring it!” has a nice ring to it.
 
thewanderer said:
What is it that makes someone a “Traditional Catholic”. Please don’t give the answer that it is just someone who follows the ancient traditions of the Church. …
I am inclined to think that the differences stem from a different spirituality, and so a slightly different preference in the actual traditions followed… does anyone else have any (name removed by moderator)ut on this?
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Are you perhaps thinking of “traditionalists?”

The ancient traditions are the crux of the difference. The traditionalist believes the ancient traditions are right morally and doctrinally and that the new methods are wrong morally and doctrinally. They don’t view the traditions as a matter of preference.

Though they would probably deny it, traditionalists are analogous with Orthodox. We would not say a Greek “prefers” to hear the liturgy in Greek, or that a Russian “prefers” not to say the filioque. The way they worship follows their understanding of doctrine.

To your next question, “what is the difference in spirituality?” the answer may lie in their concept of grace. Traditionalists believe grace comes more or less exclusively through the Church -if one is not a member of the Church, then one does not and cannot obtain saving grace. The membership, moreover, must be public - which is to say that the praxis must follow the adhesion to the Church. The degree of one’s grace cannot exceed the degree of one’s devotion. The methods to demonstrate one’s membership (the ancient traditions you mentioned) were established over 1000 years ago, hence do and should not change materially.

You raise hard questions, because most traditionalist writing does not distinguish itself from mainstream Catholicism on the issue of grace. Churchill made a famous statement about Americans and English being “divided by a common language,” and that is true here, too.
 
James924 said:
This implies that we picked the term by ourselves.
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Tis still a misnomer…no matter who picked it or when…(and I think that many did pick it themselves)

Should be set aside in an old file cabinet somewhere.
 
Meh. No matter what the name for it is, somebody is going to be mad.
 
Bookcat said:
Should be set aside in an old file cabinet somewhere.
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Along with communion in the hand standing, versus populum, protestant hymns, women altar boys, this-worldliness, irreverence, sacrilege, “gay Masses” and other “theme” Masses, etc etc etc ad infinitum. Once the madness stops, there won’t be any need for the word traditionalist and we can safely chuck it in the filing cabinet of history and hope that it doesn’t have to come up again!
 
There is nothing more traditionals than love for and devotion to our Blessed Mother.

-Tim-
 
NewsTheMan said:
Along with communion in the hand standing, versus populum, protestant hymns, women altar boys, this-worldliness, irreverence, sacrilege, “gay Masses” and other “theme” Masses, etc etc etc ad infinitum. Once the madness stops, there won’t be any need for the word traditionalist and we can safely chuck it in the filing cabinet of history and hope that it doesn’t have to come up again!
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Some things noted —yes for they are sinful and evil…and thus forbidden by the Church…

other things are either “permitted” …

…or even from ancient times.
 
thewanderer said:
What is it that makes someone a “Traditional Catholic”. Please don’t give the answer that it is just someone who follows the ancient traditions of the Church. There are many people who follow ancient traditions of the Church and still attend the OF mass, they just don’t follow all of the traditions followed by “Traditional” Catholics. “Traditional” Catholics prefer the EF of the mass. What else seperates “Traditional” Catholics from from other Catholics?

I am inclined to think that the differences stem from a different spirituality, and so a slightly different preference in the actual traditions followed… does anyone else have any (name removed by moderator)ut on this?
Click to expand...
We are all unified in doctrine, so how are any of us separated? If you follow the doctrines of the Catholic Faith then you are a Traditional Catholic. Using the term to describe anything other than that would be a misuse of the word Traditional and will only lead to divison and not unity. I would no more considered a Eastern Rite Catholic as being seperated from a Roman Rite Catholic than I would consider an EF attending Catholic to be seperated from an OF attending Catholic. Both are 100% Catholic through and through.
 
Bookcat said:
…or even from ancient times.
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Nothing I mentioned was ancient despite the popular myths. The versus populum myth is dealt with at length in Mons. Gamber’s book; and the communion in the hand myth is quickly understood when certain passages taken out of context are put back into context. The idea that the ancients thought communion in the hand/versus populum was awesome/totally licit and that they frequently did it and understood it in the same way that we now understand it is a modern myth and a product of the false antiquarism which has been condemned by Pope Pius XII.
 
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