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1neophyte
Guest
Really? Jesus taught the Immaculate Conception?
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tgGodsway
Guest
I did not say that. I only agree that true Catholic teaching is founded on Jesus Christ and the apostolic Church. Nothing more, nothing less.
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1neophyte
Guest
Sorry. I’m just easily confused.
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Brendan_64
Guest
John 21:25 “But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.”
If the Church, has been granted authority be Christ has taught the Immaculate Conception, then that teaching comes from God.
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tgGodsway
Guest
No worries. It’s all good.
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Brendan_64
Guest
John 21:25 “But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.”
If the Church, has been granted authority by Christ has taught the Immaculate Conception, then that teaching comes from God. Jesus may well have taught it.
The angel Gabriel greeting Mary with, “Hail, full of grace”, may not be proof, but it is a very strong indication.
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tgGodsway
Guest
the immaculate conception was instituted by pope Pius IX in 1854. It reads as follows: We declare pronounce and define that the most blessed virgin Mary at the first instant of her conception was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin by the singular grace and privilege of the Omnipotent God in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of mankind, and the this doctrine was revealed by God and therefore must be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful" (From the papal bull, ineffabilus Deus, quoted in the Tablet, December 12, 1953.
The problem I have with it is that Mary herself (from holy scripture) did not believe in it. She cried out in her famous praise of adoration after finding out she was pregnant with our Savior, said these words in St. Luke 1:46 "My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my savior.
What was Mary talking about when she called God her savior? Savior from what? Why did she and her husband offer the traditional Jewish sin offerings at Passover. Scripture records the fact that they offered two offerings prescribed in the law, one, a burnt offering (symbolizing compete surrender of the will of God) and the other was a sin-offering (a sacrifice acknowledging sin.) Luke 2:22-24; Leviticus 12:6-8.
St. Augustine, who died in 430 A.D. and who was admittedly the greatest theologian of the ancient Church contradicts the idea of immaculate conception for he expressly declares that Mary’s flesh was “flesh of sin.” (De Peccatorum Meritis ii c. 24)
All of this should matter to the student of Catholic Christianity.
The problem I have with it is that Mary herself (from holy scripture) did not believe in it. She cried out in her famous praise of adoration after finding out she was pregnant with our Savior, said these words in St. Luke 1:46 "My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my savior.
What was Mary talking about when she called God her savior? Savior from what? Why did she and her husband offer the traditional Jewish sin offerings at Passover. Scripture records the fact that they offered two offerings prescribed in the law, one, a burnt offering (symbolizing compete surrender of the will of God) and the other was a sin-offering (a sacrifice acknowledging sin.) Luke 2:22-24; Leviticus 12:6-8.
St. Augustine, who died in 430 A.D. and who was admittedly the greatest theologian of the ancient Church contradicts the idea of immaculate conception for he expressly declares that Mary’s flesh was “flesh of sin.” (De Peccatorum Meritis ii c. 24)
All of this should matter to the student of Catholic Christianity.
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steve_b
Guest
Re: the Mass
While this following scripture from Hebrews, doesn’t mention
• Mass
• Sunday
• Eucharist
• Mortal sin for deliberately missing Mass
*Anybody can see what is being described and what they are doing when they meet, and what Day it is that they meet, and that there is disastrous consequences for that person if they deliberately fail to meet on “the Day” once they become knowledgeable of the truth. *
IOW based on the consequences mentioned for deliberately missing mass on Sunday, it’s already a mortal sin to not follow this command
Heb 10: (all emphasis mine)
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment,and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
(all links are operational)
Unpacking that
The sanctuary = the place the sacrifice of the mass takes place.
deliberate Failure to meet on the Day, is already a sin with huge consequences
“the Day” = the LORD’S DAY / Sunday/ the Day Our Lord Resurrected. Jesus celebrated the Eucharist the Day (Sunday) that He resurrected [Luke 24:35 ]](Luke 24:35 RSVCE - Then they told what had happened on the - Bible Gateway)
“sacrifice for sin”, & “blood of the covenant” = the words Our Lord spoke instituting the Eucharist Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24] i.e. They are celebrating the Mass
THAT’s why those who deliberately fail to celebrate Mass (the Eucharist) on Sunday after being given the knowledge of truth,
◦ there no longer remains for Them, a sacrifice for sin
◦ They Spurn the Son of God
◦ They outrage the spirit of grace
◦ a fearful prospect of judgement awaits Them
◦ and a fury of fire will consume these adversaries
Does that sound like it’s only a suggestion to attend Mass on Sunday, or a command?
Does it sound like a venial sin to deliberately miss Mass on Sunday or a mortal sin?
One only has to look at those consequences mentioned. Those consequences DESCRIBE HELL for one who dies in mortal sin
From the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church)
2178 This practice of the Christian assembly dates from the beginnings of the apostolic age. The Letter to the Hebrews reminds the faithful “not to neglect to meet together, as is the habit of some, but to encourage one another.”
Tradition preserves the memory of an ever-timely exhortation: Come to Church early, approach the Lord, and confess your sins, repent in prayer. . . . Be present at the sacred and divine liturgy, conclude its prayer and do not leave before the dismissal. . . . We have often said: “This day is given to you for prayer and rest. This is the day that the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it.”
2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own
pastor. Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.
BTW: Grave sin = mortal sin, they are synonymous.
exactly
Do what you recommended above. Love God first. Jesus qualified that. It’s not an intellectual saying one loves God. Rather it’s John 14:15
As Mary said, “do what ever He tells you to do” John 2:5
Everything follows after that.
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1neophyte
Guest
A good Catholic would not listen to any of that.
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Sy_Noe
Guest
No I’m pretty sure truth is truth. And we’re all on the path towards it based on our understandings and faiths. I’m just not sure we can believe and think we know what it is for sure without a heavy dose of faith.
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tgGodsway
Guest
Wow that was scary! Hi … I wanted to chime in here if you will indulge me.
I think you have read-into the passage ideas not actually there. For instance. you said The sanctuary= the place the sacrifice of the mass takes place. This idea did not come from Hebrews 10. The sanctuary the Hebrew writer had in mind here was the literal one in heaven. This was the authors obvious intent. There is no mention of the mass or the theology of the mass in this passage. You also said: “sacrifice for sin”, & “blood of the covenant” = the words Our Lord spoke instituting the Eucharist Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24] i.e. They are celebrating the Mass.
Actually, the Hebrew writer was not talking about anything but Christ blood on the cross, literally. Symbolism is not present here in the wording, neither is a ritualistic interpretation.
You went on to say: THAT’s why those who deliberately fail to celebrate Mass (the Eucharist) on Sunday after being given the knowledge of truth,
◦ there no longer remains for Them, a sacrifice for sin
◦ They Spurn the Son of God
◦ They outrage the spirit of grace
◦ a fearful prospect of judgment awaits Them
◦ and a fury of fire will consume these adversaries
The actual context had to do with Jewish converts who, because of persecution, decided to return to the rituals of Judaism. By doing so, they made themselves safe from persecution because the law was on their side. But the Hebrew writer encouraged them to come back to (what was then a sect, or a cultish group that had no legal protection-) Christianity.
They returned to many Jewish practices including the practice of Passover, (a symbolic expression) of the finished work of the cross. This ritual was only a pattern, type, and shadow, of the true reality found in Christ. Why insult God by returning to something God was finished with. The point is: the old way of teaching his people was no longer workable. Jesus Christ is the new WAY.
Certainly God will judge HIS PEOPLE when they stand at the judgment seat of Christ for their unfaithful choices to return to Judaism. These sanctified (v29) believers will have to answer for thinking they could find safety and comfort in the shadows of God’s old ways.
I think you have read-into the passage ideas not actually there. For instance. you said The sanctuary= the place the sacrifice of the mass takes place. This idea did not come from Hebrews 10. The sanctuary the Hebrew writer had in mind here was the literal one in heaven. This was the authors obvious intent. There is no mention of the mass or the theology of the mass in this passage. You also said: “sacrifice for sin”, & “blood of the covenant” = the words Our Lord spoke instituting the Eucharist Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24] i.e. They are celebrating the Mass.
Actually, the Hebrew writer was not talking about anything but Christ blood on the cross, literally. Symbolism is not present here in the wording, neither is a ritualistic interpretation.
You went on to say: THAT’s why those who deliberately fail to celebrate Mass (the Eucharist) on Sunday after being given the knowledge of truth,
◦ there no longer remains for Them, a sacrifice for sin
◦ They Spurn the Son of God
◦ They outrage the spirit of grace
◦ a fearful prospect of judgment awaits Them
◦ and a fury of fire will consume these adversaries
The actual context had to do with Jewish converts who, because of persecution, decided to return to the rituals of Judaism. By doing so, they made themselves safe from persecution because the law was on their side. But the Hebrew writer encouraged them to come back to (what was then a sect, or a cultish group that had no legal protection-) Christianity.
They returned to many Jewish practices including the practice of Passover, (a symbolic expression) of the finished work of the cross. This ritual was only a pattern, type, and shadow, of the true reality found in Christ. Why insult God by returning to something God was finished with. The point is: the old way of teaching his people was no longer workable. Jesus Christ is the new WAY.
Certainly God will judge HIS PEOPLE when they stand at the judgment seat of Christ for their unfaithful choices to return to Judaism. These sanctified (v29) believers will have to answer for thinking they could find safety and comfort in the shadows of God’s old ways.
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tgGodsway
Guest
I’ve been a Catholic for many years and have come to love God’s word. I am not afraid of verifiable and historical facts. I am also not afraid to reason with/over those facts. There is one thing I won’t do. I won’t put my fingers in my ears and refuse to hear what God’s word says. I won’t encourage others to do the same. I won’t allow fear to control my hunger for God.
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steve_b
Guest
Really?
What about the sanctuary in the JEWISH temple? Ya know what was there? An altar where sacrifices took place.
The Eucharist is a sacrifice. Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24]
And where it is celebrated by validly ordained priests, becomes an altar for the sacrifice.
I said you won’t find the words mass, Sunday, etc etc. but one can see what they are doing in that passage from Hebrews.#48
What I said is true. Bare with me and we can start covering miles of road in future posts
The actual context had to do with Jewish converts who, because of persecution, decided to return to the rituals of Judaism. By doing so, they made themselves safe from persecution because the law was on their side. But the Hebrew writer encouraged them to come back to (what was then a sect, or a cultish group that had no legal protection-) Christianity.
Everything mentioned there, will fall on the person who deliberately misses the Eucharist, (Mass) on Sunday. They will face those consequences mentioned,
Also
OT Jewish priests, couldn’t do ANYTHING with regards to forgiving sins. Not a darn thing. The Eucharist OTOH, is explained in Our Lord’s words of institution of that sacrament. ** Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24] **
The bread and wine becomes what He said they are.
The Eucharist , is real, and what Jesus instituted at the last supper was to continue.
Unless a person receives the Eucharist faithfully they have no life in them. Not my words, they come from Jesus [John 6:53 ]](John 6:53 RSVCE - So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, - Bible Gateway)
in addition
Links are operational
Lk 22:
17 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves; 18 for I tell you that from now on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” 19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this ποιεῖτε ] in remembrance of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after supper, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.c
ποιεῖτε, ] = make, manufacture, construct, (b) do, act, cause.
They (the apostles) are to Do exactly what JESUS DID here. That is to actually Change bread and wine into His body and blood. Not a symbol, but the actual body and blood of Jesus. And in this action and those words, Jesus ordained His apostles to do what He did. And it is to continue.
Hang around. There’s way more to say than can fit on a single post
In addition, speaking of division/leaving the Church Jesus established, take a look at a condensed history of divisions those who left the Church catholic.com/tract/the-great-heresies
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GLam8833
Guest
Why look only to the Last Supper account in the
Gospels(Matt. 26:28;Mark 14:24)? It seems that
the Early Church ALREADY has a tradition of
celebrating the Eucharist(Acts 20:7;1 Cor. 10:16;
1 Cor. 11:24)!!
As for the Question of the OP, I consider myself
a god-fearing man(out of respect for God) then
a Christian( a follower of Christ) and then lastly
a Catholic(follow the Teachings of the Church,
the Magisterium).
Those who are Catholic and fall into grave sin
run the risk(more than other denominations)
of being singled out as typical “good catholics”
b/c the world and the devil are always wanting
to discredit the Church, which is what Christ
predicted will happen(Matt. 16:18; Jn. 15:19)
They forget those heroes of the Catholic Church
who carry on the tradition of bravery in face of
persecution, suffering and even martyrdom given
in Heb. 11, they are also part of the “Cloud of
Witnesses” that are our shining example, who
shouts out words of advice cheers us on and
intercedes for us. Heb. 12:1
Gospels(Matt. 26:28;Mark 14:24)? It seems that
the Early Church ALREADY has a tradition of
celebrating the Eucharist(Acts 20:7;1 Cor. 10:16;
1 Cor. 11:24)!!
As for the Question of the OP, I consider myself
a god-fearing man(out of respect for God) then
a Christian( a follower of Christ) and then lastly
a Catholic(follow the Teachings of the Church,
the Magisterium).
Those who are Catholic and fall into grave sin
run the risk(more than other denominations)
of being singled out as typical “good catholics”
b/c the world and the devil are always wanting
to discredit the Church, which is what Christ
predicted will happen(Matt. 16:18; Jn. 15:19)
They forget those heroes of the Catholic Church
who carry on the tradition of bravery in face of
persecution, suffering and even martyrdom given
in Heb. 11, they are also part of the “Cloud of
Witnesses” that are our shining example, who
shouts out words of advice cheers us on and
intercedes for us. Heb. 12:1
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Rahn
Guest
I see you have taken offence to my statement under Religion above. I had wished you would have focused on what I said in the thread.
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Rahn
Guest
Not sure where you are seeing that, are you referring to my response to Religion?
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Rahn
Guest
So, you are agreeing that Sunday Mass and the Sacraments are it? So, those mobsters that killed on Saturday but attended Mass and received Holy Communion on Sunday were ok?
And I know you will say “be in the state of grace”, but, let’s take for example the “good Catholic” woman who does Sunday Mass and the Sacraments, but guilts her friends into buying overpriced things from her, then laughs at them behind their backs, “more money than sense”, is she in a state of grace?
Don’t you need to LIVE your faith? Isn’t being Catholic something that you have to do outside of the church?
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Rahn
Guest
Thanks for that. You don’t even know me, and you have branded me a bad Catholic. I seem to recall our Lord and Saviour saying “Judge not, lest you be judged”.
When you actually have a thoughtful answer to what I have asked, please feel free to respond again. Until then, God bless you.
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Rahn
Guest
Do you? Really?
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Rahn
Guest
Because a good Catholic checks his mind at the door?
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