What makes you think the bible is the word of God?

  • Thread starter Thread starter tigers08
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
OK, I’ll pick one at random off the list. Were the angel(s) inside or outside the tomb when the women went to anoint Jesus?
skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/inside.html
Mathew 28.2 speaks about an angel opening the tomb. Surely, the angel was outside as said angel rolled back the stone. On entering the tomb, in Mark 16:2, they saw a young man sitting on the right side and they were amazed. Surely, at his point, the young man was inside the sepulchre. But there is no reason to suppose that said young man was also the angel who rolled back the stone.
While the two Mary’s were perplexed, in Luke 24:3-4, two men stood by them in dazzling garments. At this point, the two “angels” standing by them were still outside because the two Mary’s were not yet inside. In John 20:11-12, the other Mary stooped down to look into the tomb, and she saw two angels in white, sitting, one at the head and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had been laid. These two angels sitting were surely inside the tomb.

Where is the contradiction there?
 
Mathew 28.2 speaks about an angel opening the tomb. Surely, the angel was outside as said angel rolled back the stone.
According to Matt: one angel sitting on stone, women know he rolled it back because of an earthquake, no mention of anyone inside.
On entering the tomb, in Mark 16:2, they saw a young man sitting on the right side and they were amazed. Surely, at his point, the young man was inside the sepulchre. But there is no reason to suppose that said young man was also the angel who rolled back the stone.
According to Mark: No mention of anyone on the outside, women don’t know how the stone was moved, and there’s one young man in the tomb.
While the two Mary’s were perplexed, in Luke 24:3-4, two men stood by them in dazzling garments. At this point, the two “angels” standing by them were still outside because the two Mary’s were not yet inside.
Luke 24:3 “but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus”. The 2 Mary’s were definitely on the inside, so the 2 men must have been, too.
According to Luke: No mention of anyone on the outside, women don’t know how the stone was moved, and there are 2 men inside the tomb.
In John 20:11-12, the other Mary stooped down to look into the tomb, and she saw two angels in white, sitting, one at the head and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had been laid. These two angels sitting were surely inside the tomb.
According to John: No mention of anyone on the outside, women don’t know how the stone was moved, 2 men appear inside the tomb after Paul had left (the fact that Paul and the other disciple weren’t mentioned by the other gospels is also a pretty big discrepancy)

Those are pretty different stories for divinely inspired writing.
 
No missing link? Please show us how the fossils satisfactorily and completely establish the theory that man evolved from “apes”.
Here’s a pretty good page on human evolution: talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html
It even has creationist articles if you want to read their responses.

But I don’t know why you focus on human evolution. There are more complete fossil records for other species, and if one species is shown to have gone through evolution, then obviously they all have.

On a side note, doesn’t evolution make God MORE powerful. People always fight it because they think it means God didn’t create mankind or something. To me, it gives God foresight. He knew that if he created the universe, with the right amount of matter, with gravity and electromagnetic and strong and weak nuclear forces all having certain properties, then eventually planets would form, water would be on those planets, chemicals in the ocean would assemble into proteins and DNA, and life would evolve from there.
 
According to Mark: No mention of anyone on the outside, women don’t know how the stone was moved, and there’s one young man in the tomb.
No, Mark did not say that the women did not know how the stone was moved. Mark did not mention how it was done. He was silent as to whether or not the women knew how it was done.Also, Mark did not say that the man was inside the tomb.
 
But I don’t know why you focus on human evolution. There are more complete fossil records for other species, and if one species is shown to have gone through evolution, then obviously they all have.
Because, of all creatures, only upon man’s nose did God breath the “breath of life”. He never did this to the animals. It is not correct to make a conclusion that man must have evolved from apes based on “findings” that other animal species went through evolution.
 
On a side note, doesn’t evolution make God MORE powerful. People always fight it because they think it means God didn’t create mankind or something. To me, it gives God foresight. He knew that if he created the universe, with the right amount of matter, with gravity and electromagnetic and strong and weak nuclear forces all having certain properties, then eventually planets would form, water would be on those planets, chemicals in the ocean would assemble into proteins and DNA, and life would evolve from there.
That is a dangerous side note. Nothing, not even evolution, could make God MORE powerful. For God is already ALL-POWERFUL. And nothing can give God foresight. He is already ALL-KNOWING.
 
Those are pretty different stories for divinely inspired writing.
Probably because there are different authors. 😃

Think of it this way: look at the story of, say, Cinderella. There are probably dozens of versions of the story of Cinderella out there, and each of them has a different take on the story. But the **message **of the story remains the same – a young girl forced into servitude by her family eventually finds happiness with her Prince Charming. The details are different in each story, but there’s the same basic message.

It’s the same thing with the Bible. Each Biblical writer had a different style of writing as well as a different audience. Matthew, for example, was primarily concerned with Jewish law and his Jewish audience. Luke, the physician, focused on the miracles of Jesus and his acts of healing. Mark was a disciple of Peter and focused primarily on recording the things he had heard from Peter as accurately as possible.

From here:
THE tradition of the early Church is unanimous in attributing the second Gospel to Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter the apostle. The historian Eusebius quotes Papias, a disciple of John, as stating this in writing around the year 125:
“Mark, having been the interpreter of Peter, wrote accurately, though not in order, all that he remembered of the things said or done by the Lord. For he had neither heard the Lord nor been his follower, but afterward, as I said, he was the follower of Peter, who gave his instructions as circumstances demanded, but not as one giving an orderly account of the words of the Lord. So that Mark was not at fault in writing certain things as he remembered them. For he was concerned with only one thing, not to omit anything of the things he had heard, and not to record any untruth in regard to them.”
(bolding mine)

It’s the same with Genesis. We don’t know the author of Genesis, but Tradition tells us that the author did not mean to give a minute-by-minute, hour-by-hour account of creation. You can’t read Genesis the same way you would read a biology textbook. The author was intending to transmit the message of the story of creation – namely, that we were created by God and in His image, and we have dominion over the plants and animals of the Earth. That’s why there are two creation accounts in Genesis – they’re not two conflicting accounts, but rather two different ways of telling the same story, but with different emphases.

As to the alleged “list of inaccuracies” that you posted from infidels.org and Skeptic’s Annotated Bible – both were written by people who frankly don’t know how to read the Bible in its proper context. They’re focusing on the silly mundane details that don’t affect** the message of the book as intended by the author**.

Would you read, for example, a letter from your grandmother in the same way you’d read a volume of Emily Dickinson? Of course not. In the same vein, you can’t read Song of Solomon, a book of poetry, in the same way you’d read Romans, a letter to a Christian community.

And if you were reading writing in your journal and wrote the phrase, “It was raining cats and dogs,” would you want your reader to believe that cats and dogs were literally falling from the sky? No, because you know that that particular phrase is just a metaphor that means “it was raining really hard.”

You know that because you live in this particular time and place, but what if, 2000 years from now, an archeologist finds your personal journal and decides that you meant that dogs and cats were literally falling from the sky. That would be an incorrect interpretation of your journal because the interpreter failed to take into account what metaphors were commonly used in the 20th and 21st century, and thus failed to take into account* what your message was * (i.e., that it was raining really hard) as opposed to what your words literally said. In the same way, you can’t read the Bible and interpret it without at least having a working knowledge of the society, customs, etc. of the time and place when that particular book was written. So in 2000 years, the “Skeptic’s Annotated Writings of Tiger08” could say, “Tiger08 clearly wasn’t a real person, because she recorded that cats and dogs fell from the sky as precipitation, an event we know from historical sources was physically and biologically impossible.”

The Catechism states: “According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral, and anagogical senses” (CCC 115). (emphasis mine). The mistake of the sites you have cited is that they are only taking into account the literal sense and completely missing the other three.
 
Luke 24:3 “but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus”. The 2 Mary’s were definitely on the inside, so the 2 men must have been, too.
According to Luke: No mention of anyone on the outside, women don’t know how the stone was moved, and there are 2 men inside the tomb.
“when they entered” is translated in the Douay version as “on entering”. It does not necessarily mean that they were inside the tomb when two men stood by them. This is confirmed in John 20:11-12, Mary was standing outside, and she wept, she stooped down and look into the tomb. She just stooped down and looked into the tomb, and she saw two angels sitting near the place where Jesus was laid. It is clear, there were two different occurrences: One, two angels stood by them while they were outside the tomb. Second, when they stooped to look inside the tomb, they saw two angels sitting near the place where Jesus was laid.
According to John: No mention of anyone on the outside, women don’t know how the stone was moved, 2 men appear inside the tomb after Paul had left (the fact that Paul and the other disciple weren’t mentioned by the other gospels is also a pretty big discrepancy)

Those are pretty different stories for divinely inspired writing.
Who is the Paul you are referring to? Paul was not one of the twelve apostles! Why should he be included there?
No, it is not true that in John there was no mention of anyone outside. Here, "But Mary was standing outside weeping at the tomb." (John 20:11)
Clearly, the four stories do not contradict each other. On the contrary, they complement and “nourish” each other.
 
I care. If I am to believe that a book is inspired by God, it can have no errors. Period. I disagree with the whole “only the meaning is inerrant”. There is no way to know whether the meaning was inspired by God if we can’t judge the book based on its literal words.
Hi again tigers08,

If you think God’s plan was to give us a completely free unambiguous foolproof book for all languages and for all times, then you have totally and utterly misunderstood the mission of Christ. You have no idea what God’s plan of redemption entails. And you have no idea how God can communicate to us.

There may be hope for you. But right now, we are living in different worlds. You are living in a material world. Good luck to you, and I’ll see you around in other threads. Bye for now. 👋
 
Because of the effect it had on me.
That is it! Each one has his own unique experience in relation to the word of God. And that experience cannot be questioned by another who has not experienced it, except if the experience clearly contradicts the basic teachings of the Church, the pillar and mainstay of the truth.
 
You’re really going to risk eternal damnation (if the Muslims or some other religion is right) on the trustworthiness of some individual?
Yep.
 
That is a dangerous side note. Nothing, not even evolution, could make God MORE powerful. For God is already ALL-POWERFUL. And nothing can give God foresight. He is already ALL-KNOWING.
I meant the idea of evolution would make God seem more powerful than it seems with creationism. Obviously if one book says God can make it rain but not snow, and another book says God can do both, then the God from the 2nd book is more powerful. I agree he is all powerful and all knowing, which is why I disagree with the bible. Check Judges 1:19.
 
Hi again tigers08,

If you think God’s plan was to give us a completely free unambiguous foolproof book for all languages and for all times, then you have totally and utterly misunderstood the mission of Christ. You have no idea what God’s plan of redemption entails. And you have no idea how God can communicate to us.

There may be hope for you. But right now, we are living in different worlds. You are living in a material world. Good luck to you, and I’ll see you around in other threads. Bye for now. 👋
I don’t. I don’t believe God would intervene in the world if He knew from the beginning exactly what would happen when he created it. If he wanted it different, he would have set it up correctly to begin with.
 
I don’t. I don’t believe God would intervene in the world if He knew from the beginning exactly what would happen when he created it. If he wanted it different, he would have set it up correctly to begin with.
Hello again tigers08 👋
You’ve changed the subject in an interesting way, so I thought I’d come back to the thread.

The way the world is today is exactly what God imagined at creation. At creation, he told us he would intervene. Let me explain…

God finished creating the world on a Friday, and rested on a Saturday. God finished his redemption work (ie, dying on the Cross) on a Friday, and was laid to rest on a Saturday.

Also, Eve is the bride of Adam and was born from his ribs when he was in deep sleep. The Church is new Eve, with Christ as the new Adam (Eph 5:32, Lk 3:38), and the Church was born from the ribs of Christ when the blood and water that founded the Church was spilled when he was speared in his side when he was in his deep sleep (ie, death) upon the Cross (Eph 5:25-27,32; Ac 20:28; Jn 19:34).

Anyway, do you realise what you’re doing? You’re wanting God to give you a perfect book, and you’re wanting God to give you a perfect world… perfect to your definitions. You’re acting like a master and wanting God to be your servant. That’s wrong on many levels.
 
The way the world is today is exactly what God imagined at creation. At creation, he told us he would intervene. Let me explain…

God finished creating the world on a Friday, and rested on a Saturday. God finished his redemption work (ie, dying on the Cross) on a Friday, and was laid to rest on a Saturday.

Also, Eve is the bride of Adam and was born from his ribs when he was in deep sleep. The Church is new Eve, with Christ as the new Adam (Eph 5:32, Lk 3:38), and the Church was born from the ribs of Christ when the blood and water that founded the Church was spilled when he was speared in his side when he was in his deep sleep (ie, death) upon the Cross (Eph 5:25-27,32; Ac 20:28; Jn 19:34).
Not really sure what this has to do with anything. You can find symbols in anything, they’re meaningless.
Anyway, do you realise what you’re doing? You’re wanting God to give you a perfect book, and you’re wanting God to give you a perfect world… perfect to your definitions. You’re acting like a master and wanting God to be your servant. That’s wrong on many levels.
I don’t think God would give us a book. Other than realizing that after humans had evolved enough they would start to question the world, and consequently would make up stories to explain the world. And I think he did give us a perfect world. How could God create anything that is less than perfect? I’m not asking God to serve me in any way.

Here’s the problem I see. If God is all-knowing, then he would know the future of the universe when he created it. So he would know that men would become “sinners” in this world. He obviously wanted it to be this way, otherwise he would have created a world without “sin”. I know you’re all gonna say “but he had to give us free will”. Is it really free will if he already knows exactly what we’re going to do? So there really is no way in my mind an omniscient God could step in and change the world, whether through miracles or revelation, because that would mean the world wasn’t right to begin with and he had to fix it.
 
“when they entered” is translated in the Douay version as “on entering”. It does not necessarily mean that they were inside the tomb when two men stood by them. This is confirmed in John 20:11-12, Mary was standing outside, and she wept, she stooped down and look into the tomb. She just stooped down and looked into the tomb, and she saw two angels sitting near the place where Jesus was laid. It is clear, there were two different occurrences: One, two angels stood by them while they were outside the tomb. Second, when they stooped to look inside the tomb, they saw two angels sitting near the place where Jesus was laid.
“On entering” means the same thing. And the point of this was it is a contradiction, you can’t use one book to prove what another meant. What’s clear that the 4 writers had no idea so they made stuff up as they went. It’s not just whether she
Who is the Paul you are referring to? Paul was not one of the twelve apostles! Why should he be included there?
No, it is not true that in John there was no mention of anyone outside. Here, "But Mary was standing outside weeping at the tomb." (John 20:11)
Clearly, the four stories do not contradict each other. On the contrary, they complement and “nourish” each other.
Whoops, my bad. I meant Simon Peter. Wow, lol. Anyways, and I meant angels in John. There’s 2 angels inside the tomb in that book.
 
No, Mark did not say that the women did not know how the stone was moved. Mark did not mention how it was done. He was silent as to whether or not the women knew how it was done.Also, Mark did not say that the man was inside the tomb.
It says they wondered how the stone was going to be moved, but when they got there it was already moved. Sounds like they didn’t know how it moved to me. Even if they did, there was no angel sitting on top of the stone when they got there.
16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side
Yes, right there it says the man was inside the tomb.
 
Not really sure what this has to do with anything. You can find symbols in anything, they’re meaningless.

I don’t think God would give us a book. Other than realizing that after humans had evolved enough they would start to question the world, and consequently would make up stories to explain the world. And I think he did give us a perfect world. How could God create anything that is less than perfect? I’m not asking God to serve me in any way.

Here’s the problem I see. If God is all-knowing, then he would know the future of the universe when he created it. So he would know that men would become “sinners” in this world. He obviously wanted it to be this way, otherwise he would have created a world without “sin”. I know you’re all gonna say “but he had to give us free will”. Is it really free will if he already knows exactly what we’re going to do? So there really is no way in my mind an omniscient God could step in and change the world, whether through miracles or revelation, because that would mean the world wasn’t right to begin with and he had to fix it.
Your mistake here is thinking that God is constrained to a human timeline. God exists outside of time. He doesn’t know the future; he is IN the future. He’s also in the past and present.

C.S. Lewis, in Mere Christianity, described it like writing a short story. If you write the sentence, “Mary heard a knock on the door and rose from her chair,” you could then get up from your desk and go out for a sandwich. When you come back three hours later, Mary is still suspended in that one moment. She hasn’t left it. That’s how God works. C.S. Lewis explains it better, so I highly recommend reading (or listening) to Mere Christianity if you haven’t already.

Moreover, the scenario you described completely negates free will. 🤷 God gave Adam and Eve a CHOICE to love him or reject him, as he gives all of us a choice. God did make a perfect world without sin, but humans screwed it up – not God. And God sent Jesus to make it right. (Again, C.S. Lewis describes it better than I can in Mere Christianity.)
 
What’s clear that the 4 writers had no idea so they made stuff up as they went.
:confused: More like there were 4 different writers, writing at different times (estimated to be at least 45-50+ years after the events occured), and possible combining with oral traditions.

Consider this:

If the Gospel writers were “making stuff up”, why would they use women for witnesses? If they wanted to make something up that was believable, they’d not have used any woman’s testimony in the Gospels. They’d have made up evidence more credible than having a woman testify to the evidence of the resurrection. First century women were not considered valid witnesses in that society.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top