What makes you think the bible is the word of God?

[tigers08]

Your mistake here is thinking that God is constrained to a human timeline. God exists outside of time. He doesn’t know the future; he is IN the future. He’s also in the past and present.

Wow, thank you. This is what I always tell people I believe but they never seem to understand me.

Moreover, the scenario you described completely negates free will. God gave Adam and Eve a CHOICE to love him or reject him, as he gives all of us a choice. God did make a perfect world without sin, but humans screwed it up – not God. And God sent Jesus to make it right. (Again, C.S. Lewis describes it better than I can in Mere Christianity.)

This is the only part I disagree with. Thoughts and choices are nothing more than chemical reactions in our brains. These reactions take place based on previous reactions, and the structure of your brain based on genetics. (nature and nurture) Obviously extremely complicated, but there is still nothing random, everything is controlled by the laws of physics. So all of your “choices” were decided based on your parents and your environment, and your environment is based on the “choices” of your parents, all the way up your ancestry. So while we believe we’re making choices, I believe God made these choices for us when he created the universe.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Not really sure what this has to do with anything.

You wondered earlier in post # 74 about whether or not God “knew from the beginning exactly what would happen when he created [the world].” I was merely suggesting to you that he did indeed know from the beginning exactly what would happen when he created the world.

You can find symbols in anything, they’re meaningless.

It’s not symbols. It’s prophecy!

Maybe this time I’ll be saying “bye” to thread for good. You and I cannot connect on common ground.

 

[tigers08]

ok, yes, i completely agree with all of this:

More like there were 4 different writers, writing at different times (estimated to be at least 45-50+ years after the events occured), and possible combining with oral traditions.

That’s my point exactly. There probably was some truth in the story, my argument isn’t over whether Jesus really rose from the dead or not. My point is that people claim the book was INSPIRED BY GOD. There should be absolutely no mistakes in it. That means one book can’t claim there were 2 angels in the tomb while another says one. God should know how many angels there were.

Consider this:
If the Gospel writers were “making stuff up”, why would they use women for witnesses? If they wanted to make something up that was believable, they’d not have used any woman’s testimony in the Gospels. They’d have made up evidence more credible than having a woman testify to the evidence of the resurrection. First century women were not considered valid witnesses in that society.

I didn’t mean they made the whole thing up. They probably did hear the story from the women, but 45 years later none of them could remember it exactly. My only point is that if this is the case, the book was not inspired by God.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

…

This is the only part I disagree with. Thoughts and choices are nothing more than chemical reactions in our brains. These reactions take place based on previous reactions, and the structure of your brain based on genetics. (nature and nurture) Obviously extremely complicated, but there is still nothing random, everything is controlled by the laws of physics. So all of your “choices” were decided based on your parents and your environment, and your environment is based on the “choices” of your parents, all the way up your ancestry. So while we believe we’re making choices, I believe God made these choices for us when he created the universe.

Tiger, you start with the premise that the universe is a (rather large) machine, which is utterly deterministic, and then seem to actually entertain some concept of God who is the “maker” but not an interferer in his machine.

Can you see how your proposition leads to an utterly meaningless universe which “runs” simply to “run”.

You probably will claim that this macro-“machine” is some recursive “matrix like” series of embedded machines whose “God’s” are themselves part of the machine in which THEY are imbedded.

How does living in such a thing affect how you act?

Why do you do good things?

To your original posting, I shall say this: The bible is the word of God because it’s the only writing based on a God who is Love and who is our Father, Friend and Helper.

You may start with whatever premise you wish to describe your god.

I choose to start with the premise that God is the Most Good, Most Loving, Most Wise, Utterly Omnipotent Being possible, such that ONLY He is worth worshipping as God, and “above” whom no other being exists.

Your god will lead to into his infinitely complexifying chaos filled mechanism, and mine will lead me into the loving arms of our Father.

May you become as happy and wise with the “help” of your god as is good for you, and may I have the same priviledge.

 

[agangbern]

My point is that people claim the book was INSPIRED BY GOD. There should be absolutely no mistakes in it. That means one book can’t claim there were 2 angels in the tomb while another says one. God should know how many angels there were.

So now what you think a mistake is no longer whether the angels were inside or outside. It is now whether there were two or one angel inside. You have read it in John that there were only two angels inside sitting near the place were Jesus was laid. Which book says that there was only one angel inside? Mark? Mark did not say that the one angel seen by the two Mary’s were inside. That angel was just there by their right side. The two Mary’s did not get inside the tomb. They were just by the entrance and looked inside. That angel was simply there near the entrance, by the right side. Therefore, combining the gospels, we are informed that there were two “angels” inside" and there was one “angel” sitting by the right side of the entrance, not inside. That speaks of three “angels”.

 

[agangbern]

I meant the idea of evolution would make God seem more powerful than it seems with creationism. Obviously if one book says God can make it rain but not snow, and another book says God can do both, then the God from the 2nd book is more powerful. I agree he is all powerful and all knowing, which is why I disagree with the bible. Check Judges 1:19.

I can’t see how God would seem more powerful in evolution than in creationism. On the contrary, He would seem more powerful in creationism than in evolution.

 

[agangbern]

God finished creating the world on a Friday, and rested on a Saturday. God finished his redemption work (ie, dying on the Cross) on a Friday, and was laid to rest on a Saturday.

Oh! I did not know that God rested on a Saturday! This is a new teaching. May I know what is your basis for saying this? When did the days of the week begin to be called Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday?

 

[Newbie2]

That’s my point exactly. There probably was some truth in the story, my argument isn’t over whether Jesus really rose from the dead or not. My point is that people claim the book was INSPIRED BY GOD. There should be absolutely no mistakes in it. That means one book can’t claim there were 2 angels in the tomb while another says one. God should know how many angels there were.

I didn’t mean they made the whole thing up. They probably did hear the story from the women, but 45 years later none of them could remember it exactly. My only point is that if this is the case, the book was not inspired by God.

That scripture is inspired by God doesn’t equate to it being flawless in terms of historicity, grammar, or any other literary standard. No theologian nor the Church has ever claimed this, so why are you holding “inspiration” to a different standard than the Church? It is only flawless in it’s relation to salvation.

That seems to be the difficulty; you don’t seem to accept the same definition of scriptural inspiration that everyone else does.

 

[agangbern]

It says they wondered how the stone was going to be moved, but when they got there it was already moved. Sounds like they didn’t know how it moved to me. Even if they did, there was no angel sitting on top of the stone when they got there.

Before they got there, they were wondering how the stone would be moved. But when they arrived there, then they learned how it was moved.

16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side
Yes, right there it says the man was inside the tomb.

“entering” is in the progressive form. It does not mean that they in fact got inside. For all we know, they did not proceed inside. While still by the entrance, they just “stooped and looked into the tomb”.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I care. If I am to believe that a book is inspired by God, it can have no errors. Period. I disagree with the whole “only the meaning is inerrant”. There is no way to know whether the meaning was inspired by God if we can’t judge the book based on its literal words.

But inerrancy is a matter of meaning.​

Besides, it’s utterly irrelevant to the meaning of the texts as gospels - the Good News is, not that angels were here or there, but the Resurrection of Christ from death & His conquest of it.

In any case, angels don’t occupy space - so the entire issue of where the angels where is hugely unimportant; the meaning is what counts, & only that. To stop at the words, & go no further, is to turn the Good News into something deadly & murderous. Who cares about angels or men , when Christ is Risen ? That, is the Gospel - the words are not the Gospel.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Oh! I did not know that God rested on a Saturday! This is a new teaching. May I know what is your basis for saying this? When did the days of the week begin to be called Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday?

God rested on the seventh day. At the risk of diverting this thread, do you have a problem with that?

(P.S. Maybe you should look into why the Jewish sabbath is Saturday. And then study the history to find out why Christians changed it to Sunday.)

 

[wanner47]

This is the only part I disagree with. Thoughts and choices are nothing more than chemical reactions in our brains. These reactions take place based on previous reactions, and the structure of your brain based on genetics. (nature and nurture) Obviously extremely complicated, but there is still nothing random, everything is controlled by the laws of physics. So all of your “choices” were decided based on your parents and your environment, and your environment is based on the “choices” of your parents, all the way up your ancestry. So while we believe we’re making choices, I believe God made these choices for us when he created the universe.

Using your logic, no one in life is responsible for the choices they make. What, then, is the point of having a legal system that holds people accountable for their actions, or having any sort of moral code, if all of our “choices” aren’t ours to make in the first place?

How did you come to this belief? It doesn’t make much sense.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Using your logic, no one in life is responsible for the choices they make. What, then, is the point of having a legal system that holds people accountable for their actions, or having any sort of moral code, if all of our “choices” aren’t ours to make in the first place?

How did you come to this belief? It doesn’t make much sense.

His “logic” makes perfect sense. He is using the logic of the mechanical man.

The universe is a big clock. All is programmed. There is no choice. We think we choose, but it’s just the machine. I’m not a murderer because it’s inconvenient for me to be a murderer, today.

 

[tigers08]

So now what you think a mistake is no longer whether the angels were inside or outside. It is now whether there were two or one angel inside. You have read it in John that there were only two angels inside sitting near the place were Jesus was laid. Which book says that there was only one angel inside? Mark? Mark did not say that the one angel seen by the two Mary’s were inside. That angel was just there by their right side. The two Mary’s did not get inside the tomb. They were just by the entrance and looked inside. That angel was simply there near the entrance, by the right side. Therefore, combining the gospels, we are informed that there were two “angels” inside" and there was one “angel” sitting by the right side of the entrance, not inside. That speaks of three “angels”.

Both inside/outside and number of angels are different. I really don’t want to go over what each gospel said again, but I don’t think God would inspire 4 different people to write 4 different stories about his “sons” resurrection. Why would he inspire one person to leave out the part about an earthquake moving the stone? You can say all you want about him giving the authors freedom of expression, but when it comes down to it, the 4 stories are different. I cannot believe that a loving God would reveal himself to us in a way that would only cause people to question his revelation.

 

[tigers08]

Using your logic, no one in life is responsible for the choices they make. What, then, is the point of having a legal system that holds people accountable for their actions, or having any sort of moral code, if all of our “choices” aren’t ours to make in the first place?

How did you come to this belief? It doesn’t make much sense.

The legal system deters people from committing crimes. Your knowledge that what you do has consequences affects your “choices”, even if they aren’t really choices at all.

I’m not sure exactly when I realized the connection between brain chemistry and thought. I’m in psychology right now so that may have something to do with it. I do know I was talking to this girl about free will, and she said she was confused as to how God can know what we will do in life, and thus whether we will go to heaven or hell (according to her beliefs), but we still have free will and the choice of where we go is up to us. That’s when it dawned on me that we don’t have free will.

 

[tigers08]

His “logic” makes perfect sense. He is using the logic of the mechanical man.

The universe is a big clock. All is programmed. There is no choice. We think we choose, but it’s just the machine. I’m not a murderer because it’s inconvenient for me to be a murderer, today.

lol, that sounded a bit sarcastic.

 

[tigers08]

God rested on the seventh day. At the risk of diverting this thread, do you have a problem with that?

(P.S. Maybe you should look into why the Jewish sabbath is Saturday. And then study the history to find out why Christians changed it to Sunday.)

Ya I do. Why would God need rest?

 

[tigers08]

That scripture is inspired by God doesn’t equate to it being flawless in terms of historicity, grammar, or any other literary standard. No theologian nor the Church has ever claimed this, so why are you holding “inspiration” to a different standard than the Church? It is only flawless in it’s relation to salvation.

That seems to be the difficulty; you don’t seem to accept the same definition of scriptural inspiration that everyone else does.

You’re right, I don’t. The reason I believe you can’t just say the “message” is the only part inspired is because if this is true, there would be know way to know which book is right. You cannot test the message, you can only test historicity, contradictions, etc. If the message is the only part that was inspired, then no one could search for a religion. There would be no way of knowing which religion is right, so going to heaven or hell would be almost entirely based on which family you were born into.

 

[tigers08]

But inerrancy is a matter of meaning.​

Besides, it’s utterly irrelevant to the meaning of the texts as gospels - the Good News is, not that angels were here or there, but the Resurrection of Christ from death & His conquest of it.

In any case, angels don’t occupy space - so the entire issue of where the angels where is hugely unimportant; the meaning is what counts, & only that. To stop at the words, & go no further, is to turn the Good News into something deadly & murderous. Who cares about angels or men , when Christ is Risen ? That, is the Gospel - the words are not the Gospel.

It may be irrelevant to the meaning of the texts, but it is relevant to determine whether or not the text is trustworthy. The point of this thread is how can you determine whether a book is inspired by God?

 

[Meximo]

Out of curiosity have you spoken with you parents about the Bible? You mentioned you are forced to go to church, correct? Again I am just curious. I have a child that is a few years younger than you and would like him to ask me first I really thought the Bible is the Word of God.