What makes you think the bible is the word of God?

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

considering you BASED your guess of the date of the crucifixion on these celestial events…yes.

How convenient of you to leave out the other details, such as it was a Friday, it was under the reign of Pontius Pilate, it was Passover, and the moon was red - like an eclipse. It wasn’t a guess. It was educated research.

 

[EJTMJR]

If you want to treat the Bible as a historical document then you could read all the testimony of all the witnesses
Many of the people who could witness to the Bible became martyrs. I think just as in a trial the overwelming evidence would prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the Bible is the Word of God.
You must also remember that all the stories are not meant to be fact but are there to make a point.
I truly believe because of the thousands of years of history behind it otherwise it would have to be the greatest conspiracy known to man. And then there is FAITH. Faith is not needed if you can prove all things, but I believe you can prove the Bible is the word of God. AMEN?

 

[EJTMJR]

I really wasn’t asking for conversion stories, and sorry but I didn’t find his answer meaningful, I just didn’t want to be mean. Nothing personal to anyone but someone else having an “experience” means nothing to me. How can I know whether it’s true or not, let alone whether it was divine intervention. But it is interesting that faced with a similar experience as mine you ended up going back to Christianity. For me, when I realized (imo) that Christianity was wrong I had this great eureka feeling. It was like all the holes in the religion finally melted away when I could see the whole thing was wrong (again imo). The only negative feeling I had was at being (again imo) duped my whole life.

I just read your profile and you are 17? Hopfully you have a long way to go to research and pray before giving up on Christianity
I will keep you my prayers.

 

[EJTMJR]

ok, yes, i completely agree with all of this:

That’s my point exactly. There probably was some truth in the story, my argument isn’t over whether Jesus really rose from the dead or not. My point is that people claim the book was INSPIRED BY GOD. There should be absolutely no mistakes in it. That means one book can’t claim there were 2 angels in the tomb while another says one. God should know how many angels there were.

I didn’t mean they made the whole thing up. They probably did hear the story from the women, but 45 years later none of them could remember it exactly. My only point is that if this is the case, the book was not inspired by God.

Tell me. were you created by GOD? Have YOU ever made a mistake? Whose fault would that be, you or GOD?
Many people are inspired by GOD to be doctors or nurses or teachers or mininsters. Would expect that they would never make an error?

 

[EJTMJR]

Which is what I think is dumb. What’s better…blindly believe something and have a high chance of being wrong, or to investigate religions/belief systems objectively and determine which one, if any, is most likely to be right?

You have to realize that if you were born into a Muslim family, they would tell you to have faith in that too. And according to your Christian beliefs you would end up frying because of that faith.

TIGER, first off I dont appreciate you calling faith “dunb” Second
a sincere Muslim or anyone else who truly seaches for God and does His will can be saved ,thats GODS business, not mine and certainly not yours. He knows people hearts , we don’t.

I wish I could believe you are searching for truth wherever it takes you…even if that means the Catholic Church. Have you asked God to guide you?
I have been reading this post from the beginning and I feel you really need our prayers.

 

[terryobrien80]

Sorry if this is off topic, but can someone give me a citation for this quote:
“I would not believe the holy Gospels if it were not for the authority of the Holy Catholic Church”

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Sorry if this is off topic, but can someone give me a citation for this quote:
“I would not believe the holy Gospels if it were not for the authority of the Holy Catholic Church”

89 St. Augustine, Contra epistolam Manichaei, 5,6L 42,176.

Gleaned from:
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/119.htm

 

[tigers08]

The lambs blood is part of the prophecy. The people in the exodus were protected from the blood of the lamb. This is a sign from God that we are saved from sin by the blood of Jesus. That’s why the bible refers to Jesus as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

But, I suppose all this is nonsense if you wish to continue to deny the prophecy.

but it’s still not a “prophecy” because it didn’t predict anything. even if you think they are connected, in exodus it doesn’t say “sacrifice a lamb and i will save u, just like I will sacrifice my son in 1000 years” that would b a prophecy. it’s not a prophecy if you can only call it a prophecy after the fact.

 

[tigers08]

How convenient of you to leave out the other details, such as it was a Friday, it was under the reign of Pontius Pilate, it was Passover, and the moon was red - like an eclipse. It wasn’t a guess. It was educated research.

ok sorry, the date you believe it occurred on based on your research. a lunar eclipse doesn’t explain the 3 hrs of darkness. neither does a solar eclipse for that matter.

 

[tigers08]

Tell me. were you created by GOD? Have YOU ever made a mistake? Whose fault would that be, you or GOD?
Many people are inspired by GOD to be doctors or nurses or teachers or mininsters. Would expect that they would never make an error?

Well I define God as whatever created the universe, so I guess you could say that he/it created me. I think there is only one path that time can take, so anything I do was always going to happen, so while I may think something was a mistake, it wasn’t in the big scheme.

So you think the bible contains errors?

 

[tigers08]

I wish I could believe you are searching for truth wherever it takes you…even if that means the Catholic Church. Have you asked God to guide you?
I have been reading this post from the beginning and I feel you really need our prayers.

Yes I have asked God to guide me.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

but it’s still not a “prophecy” because it didn’t predict anything. even if you think they are connected, in exodus it doesn’t say “sacrifice a lamb and i will save u, just like I will sacrifice my son in 1000 years” that would b a prophecy. it’s not a prophecy if you can only call it a prophecy after the fact.

But Tig, that’s not what the word “prophesy” means!

Prophesy is simply “speaking from the knowing of God”, it is not “predicting the future” per se. It may eventually LOOK like predicting the future, because the future TENDS to flow from the laws of God (tends!?), but a “predictive” aspect for a prophecy is not required.

Since there is actually no way to know if a “prediction” is such until it is proved, the statement that “you can’t call a prophecy (using your definition of prophecy) a prophecy after the fact” is wrong, because you can ONLY do so after the fact.

But, that is not the issue with an actual prophecy, which is only incidentally a “prediction”, because a prophet “merely” (!?) states a truth of God and nothing more.

What that truth will engender is determined by the choices that people choose which relate to the prophecy.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Well I define God as whatever created the universe, so I guess you could say that he/it created me. I think there is only one path that time can take, so anything I do was always going to happen, so while I may think something was a mistake, it wasn’t in the big scheme.

Did you HAVE to make the “mistake” before the time when you DID make the “mistake”?

I’m not interested in whether you think that you had to make the “mistake” AFTER you made the “mistake”, but only whether you are COMPELLED to make “mistakes” in the “future” (relative to a chosen “present”).

In other words, do you ever have free will, or is what you do irrelevant “in the big picture” as it was utterly “fore-ordained” and couldn’t have been otherwise as seen from the “present”?

 

[tigers08]

But Tig, that’s not what the word “prophesy” means!

Prophesy is simply “speaking from the knowing of God”, it is not “predicting the future” per se. It may eventually LOOK like predicting the future, because the future TENDS to flow from the laws of God (tends!?), but a “predictive” aspect for a prophecy is not required.

“A prediction of the future, made under divine inspiration.”, that’s the second definition on answers.com, and the one that applies to what I’m talking about.

Since there is actually no way to know if a “prediction” is such until it is proved, the statement that “you can’t call a prophecy (using your definition of prophecy) a prophecy after the fact” is wrong, because you can ONLY do so after the fact.

Dang it you’re right, I definitely worded that wrong. I guess what I meant was at the time the prophecy is made, you should be able to recognize that it’s a prophecy. God killing Egyptians on passover isn’t a prediction, and at the time wouldn’t have been seen as a prophecy.

 

[tigers08]

Did you HAVE to make the “mistake” before the time when you DID make the “mistake”?

I’m not interested in whether you think that you had to make the “mistake” AFTER you made the “mistake”, but only whether you are COMPELLED to make “mistakes” in the “future” (relative to a chosen “present”).

In other words, do you ever have free will, or is what you do irrelevant “in the big picture” as it was utterly “fore-ordained” and couldn’t have been otherwise as seen from the “present”?

To “me”, free will exists. I choose to type this right now. But that choice was always going to be made. So yes I think everything is “fore-ordained” and couldn’t have been otherwise unless the universe began differently. And yes I think the rest of my life is already decided. Basically because at the smallest level, the movement of atoms could be predicted if one knew everything, so you can build that all the way up to people’s decisions and nature and everything.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalmDownWisWins
But Tig, that’s not what the word “prophesy” means!

Prophesy is simply “speaking from the knowing of God”, it is not “predicting the future” per se. It may eventually LOOK like predicting the future, because the future TENDS to flow from the laws of God (tends!?), but a “predictive” aspect for a prophecy is not required.

“A prediction of the future, made under divine inspiration.”, that’s the second definition on answers.com, and the one that applies to what I’m talking about.

That’s fine. I just thought you might want to know what prophesy means as it relates to Catholic thinking, as opposed to The Holy Dictionary.

 

[marietta]

Where can I find the Catholic Thinking Dictionary? Is it sold through this forum? Or a glossary of Exclusively Roman Catholic words and ideas? Even better: Catholic Thinkers’ Cliff’s Notes.
I have a high school edumacation, but even I know that “prophecy” (n.) and “prophesy” (v.t.) are two different words and are not interchangeable.

Part of the problem here is failure of clarity, terms being bandied about willy-nilly in an effort to score. It’s not just you posters involved here; lots of us are following this ball, and some of us would like some ground rules. So if there’s a source for an explanation of terms, let us in on it.

(This is the first site I’ve ever seen where the dictionary is snubbed as a second-rate reference.)

And it doesn’t seem to me that tigers08 is “giving up on Christianity” - it sounds to me as if he’s researched it more than your Sunday-go-to-meetin’ type of Christian and decided that there’s more to the universe than what’s offered in the churches.

Pray on for him, if you must; but don’t try to convince him that it will make any difference one way or the other.

marietta

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Where can I find the Catholic Thinking Dictionary? Is it sold through this forum? Or a glossary of Exclusively Roman Catholic words and ideas? Even better: Catholic Thinkers’ Cliff’s Notes.
I have a high school edumacation, but even I know that “prophecy” (n.) and “prophesy” (v.t.) are two different words and are not interchangeable.

As you are about to say (below), it’s about clarity, and what someone MEANS as opposed to “what the dictionary says”, in a particular context, are very often two very different things.

The problem is when people are “listening” to, as you are about to say, “score” instead of listening to actually understand.

Part of the problem here is failure of clarity, terms being bandied about willy-nilly in an effort to score. It’s not just you posters involved here; lots of us are following this ball, and some of us would like some ground rules. So if there’s a source for an explanation of terms, let us in on it.

Since each of us knows, to some extent at any rate, what we mean when we use the words we do, and those meanings are a key into only the minds of those actually using them, the only reference source for those words would be the people using them, so you’ll just have to deal with the situation like the rest of us, and ask questions that are aimed at clarifying what another means by what they say.

(This is the first site I’ve ever seen where the dictionary is snubbed as a second-rate reference.)

I love the dictionary, but I realize that the shades of meaning of words within a particular context and within a particular individual discussion are the important thing, and the “dictionary definition” is only a starting point for getting at those shades of meaning.

And it doesn’t seem to me that tigers08 is “giving up on Christianity” - it sounds to me as if he’s researched it more than your Sunday-go-to-meetin’ type of Christian and decided that there’s more to the universe than what’s offered in the churches.

What I’m trying to communicate to Tig is that the Church (Catholic) is a great “observation platform” from which to use all the methods of science to discover the endless riches of the creation.

So many posit this non-existent WAR between science and religion, especially Christianity for some very odd reason, and those spouting such absolute nonsense, if they simply did a bit of homework on the subject, would see what rubish that is. BUT, when there’s an “emotional investiture” in Christ-Bashing, the likelyhood of ripping a “religiously fervent Scientismist” (yet another of those made-up words!) away from his cult’s dogmas is rather difficult.

Pray on for him, if you must; but don’t try to convince him that it will make any difference one way or the other.

marietta

I personally don’t try to convince anyone of anything. I simply present my view of things, and my partner and I dance about trying to do whatever it is that we are trying to do. I’m trying to get them to agree to disagree with me about my axiomatic points, and find out about their axiomatic points, and my partner is often, but not always, trying to show me how stupid I am.

They always succeed in showing how “stupid” I am, because they define stupid such that even I have to agree that, using that definition, I am indeed stupid!

But at least we can agree to disagree about our respective definitions of “stupid” that way, which is actually a win for me, as well.

 

[marietta]

“Since each of us knows, to some extent at any rate, what we mean when we use the words we do, and those meanings are a key into only the minds of those actually using them, the only reference source for those words would be the people using them, so you’ll just have to deal with the situation like the rest of us, and ask questions that are aimed at clarifying what another means by what they say.”
SOUNDS LIKE:
“I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure that what you heard was not what I meant.”

Some of these posts are, grammatically speaking, so far beyond my comprehension that I despair of ever grasping the points. Frustrating, disappointing, sad.

marietta

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

“Since each of us knows, to some extent at any rate, what we mean when we use the words we do, and those meanings are a key into only the minds of those actually using them, the only reference source for those words would be the people using them, so you’ll just have to deal with the situation like the rest of us, and ask questions that are aimed at clarifying what another means by what they say.”

SOUNDS LIKE:
“I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure that what you heard was not what I meant.”

Some of these posts are, grammatically speaking, so far beyond my comprehension that I despair of ever grasping the points. Frustrating, disappointing, sad.

marietta

T o o – M u c h – A u g u s t i n e ! ! !

I think that’s my basic problem! I do indeed get a bit overly parenthetical, don’t I?

Let me translate the above:

Since we (probably) know what we mean, and only WE really know what we do mean and not what others mean, you’ll have to ask others what THEY mean by what they say.

So, you did a very good job with your translation!

Don’t be sad about your language skills! You just proved you’re **quite **capable of unwinding rather convoluted verbage (there I go again!), and you can always ask for clarification, which is what my comment was all about in the first place.

I like to be “thorough yet concise”, which effectively means cramming perhaps too many words into individual sentences, in hyper-parenthetical constructions, so that I form a “gestalt” (!!!) for the audience to deal with as a unit of thought.

That said, that can be quite annoying, which doesn’t particularly bother me under the underlying premise, “If they can’t take a joke, fnerp 'em!”

OK, that WAS a joke, but if people can’t figure out that only by asking questions is clarity EVER going to get anywhere near them, then I’m not bothered overly with not having them as conversation partners.