What message is Rome sending?

[TheDoctor]

A good father seeks reconciliation with his son when he (father) makes a mistake. That’s all that’s happening now, a father who swallows pride and does the right thing by his children no matter the cost.

I was thinking along the same lines, but just the opposite: A good father opens every door to reconciliation with his son when the son makes a mistake.

The OP asked about the Vatican being the first to blink. I think that is a natural idea since this issue is seen by many as “us vs. them” (at least if you read this forum).

Did the Pope blink? I don’t think he cares one way or the other if folks think he did or not. I don’t think he cares if folks agree or disagree with what he did. The Pope loves his people and desires to bring them all back into union with the Chruch. To love is a decision and often that decision involves being the one to take the first step or the second or the third…

I think the message the Pope is sending is “I’m in charge. This is what I think I need to do for my people. You don’t have to like or understand it. You have to accept it. And by the way, a couple of prayers wouldn’t hurt.”

 

[ErrorCMDR]

Does this mean that we are one step closer to having the Orthodox rejoin us Catholics? could the Schism be close to over?

 

[OnlyAmbrose]

Why do you say that the Christian/Jewish relationship was strained because of the SSPX situation?

It’s pretty evident:

dw-world.de/dw/article/0,3984016,00.html

…but it’s also irrelevant to the reason for their excommunication in the first place. In fact I don’t think you can be excommunicated for denying the holocaust, so there’s virtually no reason to keep someone excommunicated for denying the holocaust.

 

[latinmasslover]

I was thinking along the same lines, but just the opposite: A good father opens every door to reconciliation with his son when the son makes a mistake.

And for the most part you are right. In this matter, however, the “child” did not leave the home of the Father (or rather, Mother) and did nothing worthy of being cast out. The “child” is not being made to acknowledge his sin because he did nothing worthy of guilt.

 

[oldmass]

Bishop Williamson’s views on the Holocaust is an embarrassment to the Church, distorts the roles of bishop and historian and confuses the faithful, as well as many other people of faith throughout the world, as to what the correct view of the Church concerning Jews and their horrific sacrifice during the Second World War actually is

I’d be a little careful here. Bp. Williamson’s views on the Holocaust, viz. specifically his views on the ‘gas chambers,’ are, perhaps, an embarrassment to the Church post-Vatican II. I contend that Williamson’s views, (had the Holocaust occurred before V2, would not have embarrassed the pre-Vatican II Church that much, or at all. We celebrated the Mass of St. John Crysostom just two days ago (on the traditional calander). Read his eight homilies against the Jews, delivered in the year 387AD. Then tell me that the Church of his day would have been embarrassed by Williamson. I doubt it very seriously.
Present day attitudes towards the Jews are utterly at odds with the attitudes held and often expressed in the 1900 years preceding Vatican II. In his weekly Wed. address, Jan. 28, the Holy Father reiterated his “full and unquestionable solidarity with our brothers (the Jews), receivers of the First Covenant,…” Such a statement would never have been made by a pope prior to V2. The very notion of “unquestionable solidarity” with them was just plain unthinkable, and, truth be told, not even doctrinally sound. You can argue that the Church was wrong about the Jews for almost two milennia, then finally got it right after the Council. But that’s a slippery slope argument, and I certainly won’t go there.

 

[pnewton]

And for the most part you are right. In this matter, however, the “child” did not leave the home of the Father (or rather, Mother) and did nothing worthy of being cast out. The “child” is not being made to acknowledge his sin because he did nothing worthy of guilt.

That is an interesting opinion, but that reads into this action something that the Vatican has not said. The Pope has not said they did nothing worthy of being excommunicated. He could go against John Paul II Ecclesia Dei, but he has not done that.

 

[eelpis]

The father of the prodigal ran out to meet his son who was returning home…

 

[Freshman88]

The father of the prodigal ran out to meet his son who was returning home…

The mentality of the brother of the prodigal son also seems to be alive in the responses of many Catholics. [not referring at all to any posters]

 

[Ghosty]

I’d be a little careful here. Bp. Williamson’s views on the Holocaust, viz. specifically his views on the ‘gas chambers,’ are, perhaps, an embarrassment to the Church post-Vatican II. I contend that Williamson’s views, (had the Holocaust occurred before V2, would not have embarrassed the pre-Vatican II Church that much, or at all. We celebrated the Mass of St. John Crysostom just two days ago (on the traditional calander). Read his eight homilies against the Jews, delivered in the year 387AD. Then tell me that the Church of his day would have been embarrassed by Williamson. I doubt it very seriously.
Present day attitudes towards the Jews are utterly at odds with the attitudes held and often expressed in the 1900 years preceding Vatican II. In his weekly Wed. address, Jan. 28, the Holy Father reiterated his “full and unquestionable solidarity with our brothers (the Jews), receivers of the First Covenant,…” Such a statement would never have been made by a pope prior to V2. The very notion of “unquestionable solidarity” with them was just plain unthinkable, and, truth be told, not even doctrinally sound. You can argue that the Church was wrong about the Jews for almost two milennia, then finally got it right after the Council. But that’s a slippery slope argument, and I certainly won’t go there.

I think you’re sorely mistaken about the “pre-Vatican II” days of the Church. Remember, it was pre-Vatican II, and even pre-WWII that the theologian Henri de Lubac said that to be anti-Semite was to be anti-Christian, and Pope Pius XI said that we Catholics are “spiritual Semites”.

Additionally, the Church is well aware of what went on in Nazi concentration camps; we lost many of our own in that tragedy, including such martyrs as St. Maximilian Kolbe and the (ethnically Jewish, original name Edith Stein) St. Theresa Benedicta of the Cross. What’s more, the founder of SSPX’s own father was killed in a Nazi concentration camp, so the horrors are known all around. Bp. Williamson’s statements were embarassing, but to himself alone, and he’s been duly chastised by all sides.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Joe_5859]

To answer the question in the subject title, the message the Pope is sending is one of great love, mercy, and desire for unity. As in the Parable of the Prodigal Son, God doesn’t wait for us to get all the way home. As soon as we’re in His sights, He comes running to meet us.

 

[joandarc2008]

I think the hard part is this. We have Saints like Saint Maximillian Kolbe who were ready to die by starvation in a concentration camp to trade his life for the life of a Jewish man. Yet our Pope, as a child BEFORE ordination allowed himself to be forced into Hitler’s youth groups rather than deal with the punishment and consequences that diobedience whether civil or otherwise would have caused. Maybe the major issue is that we as the flock are not ready for him. We are not ready to do the very act that he has done for SSPX. That is that we are not willing to forgive. We want to look at the Pope as divine instead of human. He is human with apostolic succession from the Hands of Christ which are Divine. We must learn to seperate the man from the position. We must learn to forgive. Maybe that will be Pope Benedict’s greatest lesson to all of us.

God bless,

 

[pnewton]

Maybe the major issue is that we as the flock are not ready for him. We are not ready to do the very act that he has done for SSPX. That is that we are not willing to forgive.

I don’t know that anything is there to forgive. I know of no immoral action the Holy Father took while in that group. I know that Jews have more emotion attached to WWII than I do, but there are many that were caught up in the defense of Germany that never took part in the atrocities committed. But you are right, even those who were pressured into immoral actions deserve forgiveness. We must extend it or risk being denied forgiveness by God.

 

[WhollyRoamin]

Yet our Pope, as a child BEFORE ordination allowed himself to be forced into Hitler’s youth groups rather than deal with the punishment and consequences that diobedience whether civil or otherwise would have caused.

I’m not sure what you’re implying here, but I hope it’s not that His Holiness was an eager participant with the Nazis. He joined the Hitler Youth when he was 14 because he had to do so. The Hitler Youth in 1941 Germany isn’t like Boy Scouts in 21st Century America. There wasn’t much debate on the subject; every boy joined up.

 

[oldmass]

I think you’re sorely mistaken about the “pre-Vatican II” days of the Church. Remember, it was pre-Vatican II, and even pre-WWII that the theologian Henri de Lubac said that to be anti-Semite was to be anti-Christian, and Pope Pius XI said that we Catholics are “spiritual Semites”.

I think you do something of a disservice to yourself to and to the readers by answering in this way. I contended that during the Church’s first 1900 years of Her existence, the attitudes expressed towards jews were quite different than those exhibited now by the post-V2 Church. You attempt to derail my argument by a short quotation from a single pre-V2 theologian and an even shorter two-word phrase from a pre-V2 pope, the meaning of which can not really be understood outside the broader context of his remarks.

What’s more, the founder of SSPX’s own father was killed in a Nazi concentration camp, so the horrors are known all around. Bp. Williamson’s statements were embarassing, but to himself alone, and he’s been duly chastised by all sides

.
The Archbishop’s father did indeed lose his life during the war. I’m not sure it was in a “Nazi concentration camp,” however. Whatever the case, Lefebvre was, as one writer describes him, “an implacable foe of Judaism.” Read John Allen’s article in the Catholic Reporter Jan. 26, (I think) I don’t think, by the way that Williamson is overwhelmed by embarrassment. He’s been saying these kinds of things for 20 years.

 

[weepixie71]

i know a lot of you are probably not going to like what i have to say but here it goes.
i think the pope wants to make peace with the very people who love the mass that he cherishes as much as they do.
it also will not hurt in times of financial crisis for the catholic church to gain 150,000 members while the PPX gain assistance from rome.
also many of the bishops have not been as open to the tridentine mass as the pope would have liked. many bishops are allowing a tridentine mass in their diocese but in churches that are hard to get to and very early in the morning. now traditional catholics will have a mass to go to and not worry if we are being disobedient in some way.
i think PPX and the pope see win wins in more areas than they are seeing any loses.

 

[joandarc2008]

I’m not sure what you’re implying here, but I hope it’s not that His Holiness was an eager participant with the Nazis. He joined the Hitler Youth when he was 14 because he had to do so. The Hitler Youth in 1941 Germany isn’t like Boy Scouts in 21st Century America. There wasn’t much debate on the subject; every boy joined up.

I am not implying that he was an “eager participant” as you put it. However I am reminded that there are two kinds of mortal sin: sin of comission and sins of omission.

This is where only the Pope himself can know why he did what he did or failed to what he did. I wonder if during his time in those youth groups if he knew of the atrocities. If he knew of the atrocities did he himself consider becoming an agent of subversive forces that were out there. Yes, we are full aware of what the consequences would be. Many of our 20th century Saints came out of this horrible period of our history because they stood up to what they KNEW to be wrong. Every day when we stand by and do nothing when we know something to VERY VERY WRONG we committ a sin of omission. I am not even saying that he committed this sin. Maybe he knew nothing of the atrocities or did not truly believe them because they were so horrific. But yes, I believe that someone that stood by and did NOTHING because they were AFRAID to die and meet God committed a mortal sin of omission and those people are just as guilty as Hitler himself. “I was just a soldier” was not a credible defense at the Neuremberg trial nor should it have been.

Maybe this a second lesson we need to take from this - and I don’t know who said it so if someone can share I would appreciate it greatly:

For those that say I am only one person what can I do, I say look around great things have been accomplished by groups of single persons doing something.

And yes that was paraphrased. Thanks.Sorry if I offended I do love the Church and I am only saying that hypothetical actions would be wrong because I was not there to know what was in his heart at the time.

God bless,

 

[PaulJason]

I am not implying that he was an “eager participant” as you put it. However I am reminded that there are two kinds of mortal sin: sin of comission and sins of omission.

This is where only the Pope himself can know why he did what he did or failed to what he did. I wonder if during his time in those youth groups if he knew of the atrocities. If he knew of the atrocities did he himself consider becoming an agent of subversive forces that were out there. Yes, we are full aware of what the consequences would be. Many of our 20th century Saints came out of this horrible period of our history because they stood up to what they KNEW to be wrong. Every day when we stand by and do nothing when we know something to VERY VERY WRONG we committ a sin of omission. I am not even saying that he committed this sin. Maybe he knew nothing of the atrocities or did not truly believe them because they were so horrific. But yes, I believe that someone that stood by and did NOTHING because they were AFRAID to die and meet God committed a mortal sin of omission and those people are just as guilty as Hitler himself. “I was just a soldier” was not a credible defense at the Neuremberg trial nor should it have been.

Maybe this a second lesson we need to take from this - and I don’t know who said it so if someone can share I would appreciate it greatly:

For those that say I am only one person what can I do, I say look around great things have been accomplished by groups of single persons doing something.

And yes that was paraphrased. Thanks.Sorry if I offended I do love the Church and I am only saying that hypothetical actions would be wrong because I was not there to know what was in his heart at the time.

God bless,

What is truly sad is how proud you are to assume another has sinned.



Have you ever concidered that he may have confessed?

 

[latinmasslover]

That is an interesting opinion, but that reads into this action something that the Vatican has not said. The Pope has not said they did nothing worthy of being excommunicated. He could go against John Paul II Ecclesia Dei, but he has not done that.

He has not *said *it yet.

 

[Freshman88]

I am not implying that he was an “eager participant” as you put it. However I am reminded that there are two kinds of mortal sin: sin of comission and sins of omission.

This is where only the Pope himself can know why he did what he did or failed to what he did. I wonder if during his time in those youth groups if he knew of the atrocities. If he knew of the atrocities did he himself consider becoming an agent of subversive forces that were out there. Yes, we are full aware of what the consequences would be. Many of our 20th century Saints came out of this horrible period of our history because they stood up to what they KNEW to be wrong. Every day when we stand by and do nothing when we know something to VERY VERY WRONG we committ a sin of omission. I am not even saying that he committed this sin. Maybe he knew nothing of the atrocities or did not truly believe them because they were so horrific. But yes, I believe that someone that stood by and did NOTHING because they were AFRAID to die and meet God committed a mortal sin of omission and those people are just as guilty as Hitler himself. “I was just a soldier” was not a credible defense at the Neuremberg trial nor should it have been.

Maybe this a second lesson we need to take from this - and I don’t know who said it so if someone can share I would appreciate it greatly:

For those that say I am only one person what can I do, I say look around great things have been accomplished by groups of single persons doing something.

And yes that was paraphrased. Thanks.Sorry if I offended I do love the Church and I am only saying that hypothetical actions would be wrong because I was not there to know what was in his heart at the time.

God bless,

Are you suggesting that resitance [which could lead to martyrdom] was requried of drafted teenagers if they were aware of Nazi war crimes?

 

[joandarc2008]

What is truly sad is how proud you are to assume another has sinned.

Have you ever concidered that he may have confessed

?

I think it is a safe assumption that any human being regardless of their stature within the Church has sinned. Read the Bible. We as mere human beings are sinners. Yes, we have reconciliation. Yes it gives us grace. If you go back and read what I said I said that IF he were to have not acted in those circumstances as many did NOT than it would have been very clearly a sin. I did not make any such assumption that HE DID SIN. I simply said originally if you read it less defensively that for those who have made this assumption from the various press, etc. or IF this was the case than forgiveness would be a good lesson out of it.

Are you suggesting that resitance [which could lead to martyrdom] was requried of drafted teenagers if they were aware of Nazi war crimes?

I am not only suggesting it - I am saying that is what is required of any moral human being much less a Catholic in a State of Grace. However, sadly we often let our own fears guide us instead of making the right decisions. And before you start yes, I have been in war and yes I have had to make those tough decisions of what was morally right and what was wrong. I am not saying this would have been easy. There were also many that did this. For all we know he may have secretly been one of them. It has come to light in past years that Mother Church did much to stop the suffering of Jewish people when it could. However, none of us is Christ, we speak in ideals here on an anonymous internet forum. Most of us don’t really know what we would do if we were faced with certain situations. We hope and we pray that we would have the Faith and Courage in Him to do what is Right. These are my opinions but I have looked directly at what suffering on the basis of religious difference can do. It is not pretty. It is not something that is easily ignored, forgotten, or denied.

God Bless,