What message is Rome sending?

[Truthlives]

I think Pope Benedict is trying to save these men’s eternal souls by his olive branch and his fatherly protection. I do wonder about their humility however. I think they have come back to the Church because they got what they wanted: permission to say the Latin Mass. It is a question of obedience and faith. They left and disobeyed because they did not trust that the Holy Spirit was leading the Church. That is the problem I see. Isn’t that nothing more than Protestantism? There is great beauty in the Latin Mass Liturgy. And, oh yes, there have been abuses galor in the Novus Ordo. But sometimes God asks us to trust and believe He is leading us…and that sometimes means giving up our own preferences and having to suffer because Christ asks us to obey the authority of the Church. That is what makes us Catholic: obedience to the authority of the Magisterium. The Novus Ordo was the will of Christ through the Church.

Perhaps Pope Benedict, in his great love for unity in Christ has great hope that these Bishops will see that now and realize that what God desires is their filial obedience not their approval.

 

[I_Believe]

Re: the post above – Wow. No evidence of gas chambers? Faulty statistics saying that the Jewish population had declined by only a few hundred thousand – as if there were no babies born in the interim? Calling Bishop Williamson a “man who has faithfully adhered to the teachings of the Church whole and entire” while his very ordination as a bishop was in grave disobedience to the successor of Peter? Wow.

So, the excommunication has been lifted and the decree declared null.

Now without a decree, you are going to keep clinging to unjust stigma ?

Anyone who can’t see that this whole fiasco is about anti-Catholicism is blind. It’s not at all about anti-Jewish sentiment.

Bishop Williamson pulls no punches and he knows the Devil uses the media to attack the Church. And he knew that reporter was looking for drama, so the Bishop gave it to him.

Imprudent ? Yes, but another story will come along and it will blow over. Just like the comments by the radical Islamic leader of Iran, who not only denied the Holocaust, but declared Israel be wiped from the face of the planet !

And how many Catholics died in WWII fighting Nazi Germany ? How many Catholics risked imprisonment by hiding Jews in their homes during the war ? Ha, the Catholics didn’t put Hitler in power, the Protestants did. Hitler got overwhelming support in Protestant areas, while in Catholic areas he did not.

Let the Pope and the SSPX deal with Bishop Williamson as they see fit. And let’s dump the tired “disobedience” cliche while we’re at it.

 

[Tsuwano]

To Surritter andTsuwano,
Wow? Seriously folks is that all I get is a wow? Let me pose to you a question. Have you looked into this matter on your own and made up your own judgement on the matter? If you haven’t, then uttering a harmless expletive hardly qualifies as a informed and logical refutation. You refer to faulty stastitics. Look, the so called “faulty” stastistics can be found in the jewish encyclopedia, not in Nazi journals. Obviously there were babies that were born in the interim, but think about it; do you honestly think that there were nigh unto 6 million babies that were born in a period of several years? That is a biological impossibility. Those were the baby boomer years indeed, but they weren’t that booming. As to Bishop Williamson, let us not confuse his illicit inordination, an event that happened some years ago, with his character. And his character has been shown to be irreproachable. Can anyone accuse him of sowing heresies in the Church as the Novus Ordo Bishops are so inclined to do? Can anyone accuse him of abberrant and dangerous behaviour? But there are many priests running around these days who are defiling childrens bodies and poisoning the minds of their parishoners with teachings that are dangerous to souls. Why not direct your ire and wrath against them? Why instead are you on a rampage against a man who was ordained in good faith(and I say this because Lefebre was going according to canon law in ordaining Bishops in times of crisis) a man who according to the best of his abilities is seeking to help restore all things in Christ? Again I say, do not judge according to appearance. Things are not what they seem in this time of great deceit. Peace.

I have made up my mind concerning the issue of whether 6 million Jews were murdered by the Nazis and others during the Second World War. I have chosen to believe the historical record on the subject, supported by a majority of trained historians across the globe, as well as eye witness accounts of those Jews and others who survived the camps. The evidence seems to suggest that more than 6 million Jews were actually murdered in Europe.
As for Bishop Williamson, his character is not beyond reproach at all. His comments concerning the Holocaust are dangerous in my opinion. I’ve also heard of other comments made by the Bishop, including that the September 11th attack on the World Trade Center was actually a conspiracy of the U.S. Government and that God does not desire women to wear trousers or enter into universities. I have to admit that I don’t know whether Williamson has actually made these comments or not, but it bothers me that no one has refuted the charge that he has said them or offered evidence that he did not say them. Granted, these comments should not prevent the excommunication of Bishop Williamson from being lifted, but I do think these comments, if true, reveal a dangerous personality which, in my opinion, would have kept him from being ordained as a bishop if he had been ordained through licit channels. I do not believe he was ordained by Archbishop Lefebre in good faith at all, but as a means of poking a stick in the eye of the Vatican. The Church was not, and is not, in a time of crisis that would allow anyone to assume the mantle of authority over and against a pope chosen in the ancient traditions of the Church and through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
As for those priests and others who have been involved in the abuse of children, I agree that our anger should be directed against them and those who allowed them to continue to prey upon children even when they knew better. To hide these statistics under the rug, as some in the Church would have us do, is to play the same game and tell the same lie that Bishop Williamson does in regards to those Jews who were murdered in Europe during the war.
I also wish you peace. I also continue to pray for the Holy Father, the Church, and Bishop Williamson. I believe the Holy Spirit guides the Church and will continue to guide us through this difficulty as well.

 

[I_Believe]

I think Pope Benedict is trying to save these men’s eternal souls by his olive branch and his fatherly protection. I do wonder about their humility however. I think they have come back to the Church because they got what they wanted: permission to say the Latin Mass. It is a question of obedience and faith. They left and disobeyed because they did not trust that the Holy Spirit was leading the Church. That is the problem I see. Isn’t that nothing more than Protestantism? There is great beauty in the Latin Mass Liturgy. And, oh yes, there have been abuses galor in the Novus Ordo. But sometimes God asks us to trust and believe He is leading us…and that sometimes means giving up our own preferences and having to suffer because Christ asks us to obey the authority of the Church. That is what makes us Catholic: obedience to the authority of the Magisterium. The Novus Ordo was the will of Christ through the Church.

Perhaps Pope Benedict, in his great love for unity in Christ has great hope that these Bishops will see that now and realize that what God desires is their filial obedience not their approval.

Hi, and welcome to the TC forum.

Everything is God’s will. And we all have opinions. I believe all that has happened since VII is a test of our Faith.

But, please, don’t get hung up on the “disobedience” stigma. The decree concerning this has been declared null after an examination of the situation as it pertains to Canon Law. It’s no longer an issue.

 

[bobzills]

Ha, the Catholics didn’t put Hitler in power, the Protestants did. Hitler got overwhelming support in Protestant areas, while in Catholic areas he did not.

How do you then explain the fact that in 1937, in Vienna, Catholic Bishop Alois Hudal published a book entitled The Foundations of National Socialism, with an imprimatur from Catholic Archbishop Innitzer, which was an enthusiastic endorsement of Hitler? And . did not the Catholic authorities, such as Fr. Krunoslav Draganovic and Bishop Alois Luigi Hudal, smuggle wanted Nazi war criminals out of Europe via the ratlines?

 

[bobzills]

.
As for Bishop Williamson, his character is not beyond reproach at all. His comments concerning the Holocaust are dangerous in my opinion. I’ve also heard of other comments made by the Bishop, including that the September 11th attack on the World Trade Center was actually a conspiracy of the U.S. Government …

This seems to be an outrageous charge, that the U.,S. government conspired to attack the World Trade Center and kill all those innocent people? How does bishop Williamson explain the motives of the hijackers of the planes? Were they all conspiring with the US government to commit suicide for American interests? Bishop Williamson’s claims about 9/11 do not add up. What proof does he have for this and BTW, what does all this have to do with the SSPX and restoring the traditional latin Mass? What is he trying to teach us about Catholic tradition with these conspiracy theories of his? Maybe he should reconsider his vocation and go into the field of investigating conspiracy theories.

 

[I_Believe]

How do you then explain the fact that in 1937, in Vienna, Catholic Bishop Alois Hudal published a book entitled The Foundations of National Socialism, with an imprimatur from Catholic Archbishop Innitzer, which was an enthusiastic endorsement of Hitler? And . did not the Catholic authorities, such as Fr. Krunoslav Draganovic and Bishop Alois Luigi Hudal, smuggle wanted Nazi war criminals out of Europe via the ratlines?

How many copies did the book sell ?

 

[pnewton]

How do you then explain the fact that in 1937, in Vienna, Catholic Bishop Alois Hudal published a book entitled The Foundations of National Socialism, with an imprimatur from Catholic Archbishop Innitzer, which was an enthusiastic endorsement of Hitler?

Simple. Writing a book is no evidence that there is over-whelming support. If Bush writes his memoirs, does it change his approval ratings this last year? An imprimateur is evidence only that a book is free from *doctrinal *error. This is not difficult in the area of politics.

 

[bobzills]

How many copies did the book sell ?

2000 copies.

 

[malphono]

2000 copies.

Not exactly a best seller, was it?

 

[Truthlives]

Hi, and welcome to the TC forum.

Everything is God’s will. And we all have opinions. I believe all that has happened since VII is a test of our Faith.

But, please, don’t get hung up on the “disobedience” stigma. The decree concerning this has been declared null after an examination of the situation as it pertains to Canon Law. It’s no longer an issue.

Who has decreed it null? Could you point to a document I could read about that? I haven’t heard any declaration concerning this issue.
Thanks,
Truthlives

 

[bobzills]

Not exactly a best seller, was it?

I think it was restricted by the Nazis.
But there was some Catholic support for the Nazi regime, at least in the beginning. And there was some Catholic support for the ratlines, according to which Nazi war criminals were given excape routes to avoid prosecution/

 

[joandarc2008]

Bishop Williamson pulls no punches and he knows the Devil uses the media to attack the Church. And he knew that reporter was looking for drama, so the Bishop gave it to him

If he is that altruistic in his motives and actions and “pulls no punches” why would he have felt the need to apologize to the Pope for his comments and the scandal it has caused. So either he is learning he can be wrong or he lied to Rome to get what he wants politically. The former sounds like the makings of someone with the POTENTIAL to become a good priest. The latter sounds like someone who doesn’t belong a cleric at all.

God Bless,

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

I think it was restricted by the Nazis.
But there was some Catholic support for the Nazi regime, at least in the beginning. And there was some Catholic support for the ratlines, according to which Nazi war criminals were given excape routes to avoid prosecution/

There is also support for homosexual marriage and abortion among “Catholics”, in opposition to AUTHORITATIVE TEACHING. This teaching is here for a reason. Conforming to the Church is conforming to God who instituted the Church. “He who listens to you, listens to Me”. The teaching seems to be more important that what clergy not in conformity to it do.

 

[joandarc2008]

To the above poster - thank you. I think the issue here is that many people seem to have confused the teachings of the Church with the teachings of individuals within the Church.

God bless,

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

I think it was restricted by the Nazis.
But there was some Catholic support for the Nazi regime, at least in the beginning. And there was some Catholic support for the ratlines, according to which Nazi war criminals were given excape routes to avoid prosecution/

So it turns out that Catholics are not immune from sin - stop the presses!

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

There is also support for homosexual marriage and abortion among “Catholics”, in opposition to AUTHORITATIVE TEACHING. This teaching is here for a reason. Conforming to the Church is conforming to God who instituted the Church. “He who listens to you, listens to Me”. The teaching seems to be more important that what clergy not in conformity to it do.

Hear, hear. (And, yes, this is as basic as it gets.)

 

[I_Believe]

Who has decreed it null? Could you point to a document I could read about that? I haven’t heard any declaration concerning this issue.
Thanks,
Truthlives

Based on the faculties expressly granted to me by the Holy Father Benedict XVI, in virtue of the present Decree, I remit from Bishops Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson, and Alfonso de Galarreta the censure of latae sententiae excommunication declared by this Congregation on July 1, 1988, while I declare deprived of any juridical effect, from the present date, the Decree emanated at that time.
rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2009/01/document-repealing-excommunications_24.html