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grannymh
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Life could really be simple –
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AitchB
Guest
To not be harmed physically or mentally.
Personal property.
To not be lied to or lied about.
To attend or not attend any type of religious ceremony.
Personal property.
To not be lied to or lied about.
To attend or not attend any type of religious ceremony.
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JesusRocks765
Guest
they are not bound by any moral obligations, resulting in their support of abortion, desensitization towards rape and violence, and ignorance of Heaven and the true God.
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Reivax
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Nice non-sequitur. Just because ‘they’ are not bound by any moral obligations, it does not follow that ‘they’ support abortion, desensitize rape and violence. I don’t support abortion, don’t hold a desensitized interpretation of rape and violence.
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tonyrey
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What is the rational basis of your opinion?
They can be invented to suit oneself!
If you don’t have to prove anything you are in an invulnerable but irrational position! You are left with nothing but your beliefs and assumptions…
You are also assuming that reality is in principle visible even though your mind - without which you wouldn’t know anything - is invisible!
That is an act of faith in need of justification.
You are assuming mind=brain.
Knowledge of what is right does not imply the power to enforce what is right.
The ability to question doesn’t guarantee the truth of your opinions.
Morality isn’t a matter of convenience but of what is right!
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guestseeking
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Athiest
belief in no existance of any God
Athiest
Believes that all he has done that even we Christians agree is good, believes he deserves the credit if credit is due over a God he does believe in getting the credit for what he reasons and applies logic to in order to lift himself up and denies God his glory as is due.
Athiest
Believes all that mankind as humanity has even done that is good, that we christians will not say was not good, believes humanity deserves the credit for what they have done solely and not to a God they dont acknowledge or reason or use logic to give that God credit.
Athiest
Believes that individuals that have done things that all attest to as good that they were done, believes credit is due solely to them as well.
athiest therefore has set himself and mankind and all individuals appart from the belief in acknowledging they know a God to exist, thus making themselvs mankind, all individuals false gods, God help us all! no wonder why the bible says only a fool says there is no God, and thank God His Son Jesus said forgive them father they know not what they do, it seems an athiest doesnot know what a mess he is making on earth and how this God they dont know exists is so loving, cause that one act of Great Loving Kindness his Son did for us ALL, is for the athiest too, poor soul making idols he doesnt know he worships or makes everywhere he tells of something good. and all the while God gives him his time, and gives him love and mercy, cause even an athiest doesnt know himself enough to know when he will change his mind, and somehow that is like him saying i dont exist, yet God knows your name and loves you and shows it to you in Jesus Christ. ask about Jesus it will help you know God
belief in no existance of any God
Athiest
Believes that all he has done that even we Christians agree is good, believes he deserves the credit if credit is due over a God he does believe in getting the credit for what he reasons and applies logic to in order to lift himself up and denies God his glory as is due.
Athiest
Believes all that mankind as humanity has even done that is good, that we christians will not say was not good, believes humanity deserves the credit for what they have done solely and not to a God they dont acknowledge or reason or use logic to give that God credit.
Athiest
Believes that individuals that have done things that all attest to as good that they were done, believes credit is due solely to them as well.
athiest therefore has set himself and mankind and all individuals appart from the belief in acknowledging they know a God to exist, thus making themselvs mankind, all individuals false gods, God help us all! no wonder why the bible says only a fool says there is no God, and thank God His Son Jesus said forgive them father they know not what they do, it seems an athiest doesnot know what a mess he is making on earth and how this God they dont know exists is so loving, cause that one act of Great Loving Kindness his Son did for us ALL, is for the athiest too, poor soul making idols he doesnt know he worships or makes everywhere he tells of something good. and all the while God gives him his time, and gives him love and mercy, cause even an athiest doesnt know himself enough to know when he will change his mind, and somehow that is like him saying i dont exist, yet God knows your name and loves you and shows it to you in Jesus Christ. ask about Jesus it will help you know God
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grannymh
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Being “not bound by any moral obligations” has no bearing on the universal truth that the human person is worthy of profound respect. Morality and immorality describes the actions or treatment we *choose *in regard to other persons.
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JesusRocks765
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You are a minority of athiesm - when God is removed from your lives, there is nothing between you and brutal sins.
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Nate13
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What do you have to back that this is a universal truth?
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grannymh
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Genesis 1: 27-28
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 355-377 plus corresponding footnotes which cite Scripture, Ecumenical Church Councils, Encyclicals and other writings.
Apostolic Constitution Fidei Depositum on the Publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church Prepared Following the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council. This document presented the intention and purpose of the universal Catechism as highlighting the Church’s apostolic and pastoral mission by “making the **truth **of the Gospel shine forth to lead all people to seek and received Christ’s love which surpasses all knowledge (cf. Ephesians 3:19).” Emphasis mine. The truth (as read in CCC 355-377 and other paragraphs) is universal because it is meant for all people.
It is human nature, in itself, which possesses the dignity of a person who is not just something but someone. The human person, alone, is called to share by knowledge and love in God’s own life. This is the fundamental reason for our dignity and it is the fundamental reason why we are worthy of profound respect.
Because human dignity and eternal worth is also an objective truth, it does not depend on affirmation from any person. We depend on God; God does not depend on us.
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Nate13
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haha oops you didn’t have a religion marked so I was assuming you were arguing from the atheist point of view
I was curious to here an atheist explain why its a universal truth that the human person is worthy of profound respect 
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grannymh
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Just because a person makes a free choice not to believe in God, we should not assume that there is nothing between him or her and brutal sins. God and his love for all people never depends on someone’s belief.
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grannymh
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Actually, a non-theisthaha oops you didn’t have a religion marked so I was assuming you were arguing from the atheist point of view
could easily explain why “the human person is worthy of profound respect” is an universal truth.
In fact, when I first defended human nature on CAF, I stipulated that I would stop before declaring belief in God. I considered that point the province of philosophy.
That way I could remain in the material/physical domain of evolutionary science.
Even though I respect this ban, it did change things significantly. Personally, I consider this ban reasonable.
Sticky: Temporary Ban on Evolution/Atheism Threads (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/misc_khaki/multipage.gif 12)
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grannymh
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On CAF, one has to start with a very simple statement because there is a lot of misunderstanding as to what is objective, what is subjective, and what is both objective *and *subjective. The simple statement “the human person is worthy of profound respect” is a good way to demonstrate objective. It allows people to remove their religion or non-religion labels and to see themselves and others in terms of their humanness.haha oops you didn’t have a religion marked so I was assuming you were arguing from the atheist point of view
Because there are so many ways to use the words objective and subjective, I feel it is important to understand what the other person is meaning when using these words. One difficulty is that people take labels for granted without realizing that a real person is rarely a stereotype.
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Sair
Guest
The scariest thing about this statement is that it appears you actually believe it - that religious faith is the only thing that makes people treat each other decently; that we have no other sense of restraint, that all our inclinations are naturally violent.
Maybe you should take a long, hard look at yourself and question what you would do in the event that your faith failed you…
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Reivax
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I agree completely, I’m all for discussion with theists, as long as they don’t go into a discussion with such a conviction in their beliefs, that they state them as truth before such a discussion even starts. As I pointed out before, which I think JesusRocks765 chose to ignore, or simply did not understand, is that his statements are non-sequiturs.
“You are a minority of athiesm - when God is removed from your lives, there is nothing between you and brutal sins.”
While I certainly do not expect to change your beliefs, I think it is only fair to ask that you go into a discussion, with open-mindedness and basis for your beliefs, rather than just continually reiterate them, stating them in such a way that it would seem you think that each time you say them, it makes them even more self-evident and valid.
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grannymh
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I really wanted to answer you with my non-theist version of “The human person is worthy of profound respect.” But was concerned about the “ban”. So what happens early this AM? I start to answer post 27 on another thread “In a world where no one believes in moral truth, is rape and murder for personal pleasure more likely to occur?” in the Philosophy Forum and I find myself starting with the top of the food chain. ALotLessThumb had asked in his post: “Without revelation and grace, is human respect really known or a universal explainable?” Below is my answer inhaha oops you didn’t have a religion marked so I was assuming you were arguing from the atheist point of view
post 31 of that thread.
Profound respect for the human person can come from a simple idea such as human beings are the top of the food chain. In other words, we can sense the need for respecting humanity by looking at its status which is peerless in creation. However, as my Irish grandmother would say, “comparisons are odorous.” But, because of our own intellective abilities, we can see the “whole” of a person instead of just comparing running abilities with a cheetah.
I did not imply that the human person automatically “gets” profound respect. I said that the human person is “worthy” of profound respect. Worthy because of who we are. This “worthiness” becomes an universal because the human population is still one unit despite the various “races or ethnic groups” within it. As someone famous once said – we all put on our pants one leg at a time.
This kind of knowledge (observation of both others and self) regarding respect for humans can be known without divine revelation and grace. Humans are an objective reality simply because they exist and not because of what they believe. Deducing that the human person is worthy of profound respect can be relatively easy.
It is also conceivable that one can deduce by observation that there is something immaterial about human nature as in the phrase – human nature is both spirit and matter. This does not imply immediate knowledge of the concept of a spiritual eternal soul directly created by a transcendent, personal, pure spirit known as God. But simple observation can lead one to the perception of God.
What revelation and grace do is to answer our deep questions about human life. What are we? Where did we come from? Where are we going? How do we get there? What is our relationship to the Supreme Creator? Does God really love us? and so on.
While respect for the human person can be known on a natural basis, it is far better to understand that the worth of a human being comes from God.
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grannymh
Guest
May I respectfully suggest that the point of this topic should not be to win a battle at any cost on or off this thread.
Personally, I see humanity according to its description found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 355 - 421. Please note that there are not separate sections written for Catholics and other sections written for those who do not wear the Catholic label.
The argument for moral treatment of human beings does not depend on one’s religion or non-religion label. Moral treatment is based on the universal truth that all human beings, as created by God, are worthy of profound respect. It is sad for me that I have to point out that the existence of human nature, as an universal objective fact, does not depend on one’s personal belief in God.
Blessings,
granny
The search for truth is worthy of the adventures of the journey.
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MindOverMatter2
Guest
That’s good granny. But may I respectfully point out to you that we are debating about a certain non-theist existential state of being, a state of being of which most atheists believe themselves to be apart; and given that belief I am asking what moral rights do they have. The answer is ZERO.
You seem to assume that statements about moral values and rights would be true regardless of whether or not God exists. Apart from not being a Catholic idea; there are some intelligent atheists on here that will tell you that their lives have no true value or rights given their world view; but rather they behave as if they do and tell other people to think that they do because it supports their survival.
I cannot afford for people to think that it is okay to be an atheist and believe in objective moral values at the same time. I don’t want them to think that they have moral rights and existential values regardless of Gods existence. I want atheists to be honest about the existential consequences of their atheism; that a life with out God means more than just a life without a divine overlord. A life without the existence of God also means a life without any true moral value, substance, or meaning. This is very important especially in these times where the tide of moral-atheism/humanism is causing damage to peoples faith in a moral God. It is not acceptable for an atheist to think that they have the moral upper-hand in any true objective sense of the word when it comes to judging the moral value of God. It is very important for people to understand the important connection between the existence of moral truth and Gods existence if faith is to thrive in to the next generation. Many people treat the concept of God in a careless manner, as if the concept does not matter; and this has to change.
I don’t believe that many atheists look at the consequences of their atheism honestly. Many people take their atheism for granted and never consider what it really implies about the value of their existence. That’s why there are many atheists who irrationally believe they have moral rights; and they are prepared to disbelieve in God so long as they go on believing that they do have moral rights. Many well known atheists have converted to Christianity precisely because they became aware of the necessity of Gods existence in relation to the moral truths they held dear to their hearts. If I leave them deluded, then I fear that I am guilty of their delusion, for their atheism keeps them away from God.
If atheism is true then the catechism is worthless. This is not a game; its a war for peoples souls; its a war for faith.
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guestseeking
Guest
i dont understand if you have a fact to explain why the prepoderous of words and elequence of the types of words, i can see some value in your interest in empathy, but isnt it Jesus that i hurt if i hurt another even the lowest basest person if i deny them compassion am i not Hurting Jesus himself, the Son of God? and then if they hurt me, are they not also hurting Jesus Christ? isnt it a little simpler than all you guys put it, if i also like you could use few words they would be, rather than the world of non believers needs to see Jesus’s compassion to those who dont deserve it, so that as many as can can repent and be baptised and believe in the Messiah, and the arugement for us become that all believers require that they seek ways to show Jesus Christ’s mercy, and if i have doubt God help me, Jesus take away my unbelief, that i may be with you eternally in your promise and in your Faith. and the person who can say THIS in the least words i would like to hear.
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