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erichard
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I am extremely aware of what the Mormon scriptures teach, including the Bible.
What some Mormons say is not the same as what Mormon scriptures teach. The revelations to Joseph Smith say this:
How can the FINITE, BEGOTTEN Jesus of Nazareth be “infinite” and uncreated (eternal)?
In the Mormon faith Jesus is in perfect unity with His Father, thus they are not two different gods, but are ONE God.
If you can trust that, then you can trust that the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father before him, with which He is ONE with. And so on. Does not like beget like?
As you say, there is a lineage of exalted Christs and Joint-heirs from previous earths in the Mormon faith. What you have not understood is that this lineage is in perfect unity, so they are united as ONE God.
The infinite Union of these exalted beings has always existed, so it is **uncreated **and eternal.
There is one United States Senate. Right? But there are 100 Senators. Is it wrong to say there is “one” United States Senate when I know there are 100 Senators? I do not think so.
There is ONE God in the Mormon faith. But that ONE God is not one personage, but an infinite family union of personages from previous earths. Jesus, and those who become joint-heirs with him will inherit what?
The Greek philosophers who developed the creeds developed the idea that God cannot have “parts” or He is not ONE. But if the creeds are false, then the Bible can still be true, and the Mormon faith can also still be true.
Please do not try to argue with me. I am not even a member of the LDS church, and this is my faith, so if you try to tell me what my faith is, that is like me trying to tell me what your faith is.
Thanks!
Richard
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erichard
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erichard
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Hi Paul,
Not total apostasy. They clearly have lost the gift among them to receive and write the Word of the Lord. And most other spiritual gifts. So they must be doing many things wrong. But who isn’t?
Still, I have faith that the Lord will cleanse His Gentile church eventually, and it will be set in order again.
Read the Parable of the Pear Tree.
It was given by a Mormon prophet who was cast out of the church because the present leaders are seeking the glory of the world. It predicts this eventual setting in order of the church.
Richard
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PaulDupre
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Richard,
What is the name of this prophet to whom the Second Book of Commandments was revealed? Try as I did, I was unable to find his name in the many revelations and articles published on that sight. Is his identity a secret?
Paul
What is the name of this prophet to whom the Second Book of Commandments was revealed? Try as I did, I was unable to find his name in the many revelations and articles published on that sight. Is his identity a secret?
Paul
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PaulDupre
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I was a very active and well-read adult LDS convert (including a full-time foreign mission) for 11 years and I never read or heard of this idea that billions of gods are really one God. That must be a very recent LDS innovation. The rapidity of LDS doctrinal change never ceases to amaze me.
Paul
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erichard
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If the revelations are truly from God, then they belong to you just as much as to anyone else. Right?
His name, however, is Robert Crossfield. He was born in Canada in 1929, and converted to the Mormon faith in 1951, and was given the Melchizedek Priesthood. His first revelation came unexpectedly in 1961, and has continued from time to time right up to the present. He was cast out of the LDS church in 1972, and has never tried to start up another church.
Richard
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PaulDupre
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In reading Crossfield’s “revelations”, I was amused at the really bad Book-of-Mormon-style pseudo-King James English with all the thee’s and thou’s and the -eth’s on the ends of the words.
Why is the Mormon god linguistically stuck in the 1600’s?
It sounds like a phony attempt to sound “scriptural” - like Sidney Rigdon did when he wrote the Book of Mormon.
Paul
Why is the Mormon god linguistically stuck in the 1600’s?
It sounds like a phony attempt to sound “scriptural” - like Sidney Rigdon did when he wrote the Book of Mormon.
Paul
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Chris-WA
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One of Mormonism’s base criticisms about early Christianity is their idea that Greek philosophy influenced, and therefore corrupted, the correct understanding of God in the early church. This story is often told at LDS General Conferences by Mormon Apostles as they try to explain to the membership why they are right and the rest of the Christian world is wrong about God.
Has any Mormon ever considered the possibility that God, in His wisdom and providence, actually intended for Greek philosophy to contribute towards a better understanding of Him? Is it just coincidence that many of the earliest converts were from the ancient Greek world? Is it possible that Greek ways of thought, when combined with the truths of early Christianity, actually enhance our understanding of God rather than corrupt it? After all, God does have a history of transforming pagan ritual and symbols, and then redeeming and consecrating them for Himself. Baptism is such an example. Similar ritual washings were part of ancient pagan religious ceremonies among the Egyptians, Babylonians, Persians, and other cultures. In Stephen Ray’s book, Crossing the Tiber, he writes:The Roman mystery religions, before and during the time of Christ, worshiped the gods of the Isis mysteries, an oath of which is preserved on papyrus. "Before initiation, a confession of sins was expected. The candidate told…the story of the faults of his life up to the point of his baptism…It was believed the rite of baptism would wash away all the candidate’s sins, and from that point on, his life would be changed for the better, because he had enrolled himself in the service of the savior god."I think Mormons need to take a deeper look at how Greek philosophy influenced Christianity, and whether or not this was really a good thing instead of bad. After all, God gave us faith and reason. Perhaps Greek thinking helped enhance the reason side of the equation so we could all gain a better understanding of God. I would submit that God intended for Greek philosophy to contribute to the Christian religion. I don’t think it was any accident that many of the earliest converts were from that part of the world. God can and does use pagan ways of doing things by elevating them, transforming them, and consecrating them for His purposes.
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sanblasboy13
Guest
Since I was never taught them, it is easy for me as a Mormon to reject the medieval “creeds”, and the metaphysical doctrines built up on these creeds, such as the Trinity.
Richard
Hi Erichard,
The Trinity is not a " Medieval" thing. The earliest church fathers taught it too. The Nicene Creed is not “medieval.” In fact, the Book of Mormon teaches it too ( Alma 18:5, 27-28. 22:8-11, Mosiah 15: 3-5). Don’t forget the bible!
Answer back please…if you want,lol.
Richard
Hi Erichard,
The Trinity is not a " Medieval" thing. The earliest church fathers taught it too. The Nicene Creed is not “medieval.” In fact, the Book of Mormon teaches it too ( Alma 18:5, 27-28. 22:8-11, Mosiah 15: 3-5). Don’t forget the bible!
Answer back please…if you want,lol.
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erichard
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OK, that is a valid consideration. No doubt the Holy Ghost has inspired many, many men through the ages.
I certainly believe that we need more than what is in the Bible to correctly understand God. And in fact, Jesus is recorded as promising such:
So here, Jesus the evening before his final day as a mortal, promises that the Holy Ghost will eventually bring “All Truth” to his disciples.
2 Peter 1:21 teaches that the Holy Ghost was the source of the scriptures that we have now-- so it sounds like more scripture will be given by the Holy Ghost.
So, whatever other things the Lord inspires men to understand and write, can we not also hope for a time when the Word of the Lord is again given to the true people of Christ until they have “all truth”?
Richard
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Dia_Jen_Feng
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Please help me know if I have this straight as far as God, the Father.
The Father is a spirit without body, parts or passions. The Father is incomprehensible, eternal, invisible, incapable of being acted upon, unbounded, being without dimensions, not having a limit, who is known only by understanding and reason, who is encompassed by light and beauty and spirit and indescribable power He is all mind, all spirit, all thought, all intelligence, all reason . . . all light. He is simple.
Gen1:26-27 is explained by the fact that the image of God we bear involves our soul that separates us from plants and animals. (Earth, Plants, animals have no soul). Also the Bible talks about God’s strong right arm, his eyes, the pure in heart shall see God, Stephen saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God, Jesus sat down on the right hand of the majesty on high, Moses spoke to God face to face, Moses saw his back parts, Council of Constantinople (381) which is recited at Mass “seated on the right hand of the Father” all these are figures of speech.
The Father is a spirit without body, parts or passions. The Father is incomprehensible, eternal, invisible, incapable of being acted upon, unbounded, being without dimensions, not having a limit, who is known only by understanding and reason, who is encompassed by light and beauty and spirit and indescribable power He is all mind, all spirit, all thought, all intelligence, all reason . . . all light. He is simple.
Gen1:26-27 is explained by the fact that the image of God we bear involves our soul that separates us from plants and animals. (Earth, Plants, animals have no soul). Also the Bible talks about God’s strong right arm, his eyes, the pure in heart shall see God, Stephen saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God, Jesus sat down on the right hand of the majesty on high, Moses spoke to God face to face, Moses saw his back parts, Council of Constantinople (381) which is recited at Mass “seated on the right hand of the Father” all these are figures of speech.
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erichard
Guest
The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the Godhead. There is no direct reason from the Bible or Book or Mormon to think they are not separate personages, united as one in heart and mind, but not in person.…
Hi Erichard,
The Trinity is not a " Medieval" thing. The earliest church fathers taught it too. The Nicene Creed is not “medieval.” In fact, the Book of Mormon teaches it too ( Alma 18:5, 27-28. 22:8-11, Mosiah 15: 3-5). Don’t forget the bible!
This is my explanation of the fourth century trinity doctrine:
(see the wikipedia Trinity article for a different explanation:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity )
I cannot see the above Trinity in the Bible. Maybe the Bible does not outly reject it, but it does not really teach it either. The Book or Mormon certainly does not teach it. I am not knowledgeable enough about the church fathers to know when they started teaching it.
I will admit that medieval is the wrong description, as the fourth century is undoubtedly considered pre-medieval. So you win a few points on that one!
Richard
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sanblasboy13
Guest
So God has wings?? He will overshadow thee with his shoulders: and under his** WINGS** thou shalt trust. He must be fire too
“Because the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, a jealous God,” (Deu 4:24). Read John 4:24. Numbers 23:19, Hosea 11:9.
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PaulDupre
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That is a complete non-sequitur. Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would be with His Church to lead them to all truth (NOT to bring more truth to them). Why do Mormons always mis-quote and distort scripture when trying to advance their non-scriptural teachings? It says nothing about scripture. The Holy Spirit does many things to lead people to truth, not just inspire scripture.
There will be no new scripture and no new public revelation of new doctrines. Jesus is the complete and final revelation of the Father. Nothing more is needed.
Heck, most people don’t read, study or comprehend the scripture we have (the bible). More scripture that people don’t read is not the answer.
God love you,
Paul
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erichard
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Does the Bible really teach what you are saying?
In the Mormon faith, which does not consider the Creeds, The Father has a Spirit Body of great glory, and a physical, resurrected body as a tabernacle for His spirit. Christ, by His resurrection, like any “Son” has now become like His Father.
The Father is one with an INFINITE family union of beings like Himself that are the One unchanging God of the infinite, eternal universe.
This** One Infinite God** has always existed, has power over all powers in the universe, has all knowledge, truth, intelligence, etc. Only those who become one with Christ and his disciples, as taught in John 17, will obtain to this glory as Joint-heirs with Christ.
Richard
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RebeccaJ
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truthsilence
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Amen, Rebecca.
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ryanoneil
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sanblasboy13
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At least your honest,lol.
The bible is not just gonna say Trinity…it doesnt even say bible,lol. Three are God the creator: (Father)Genesis 2:7, (Son) John 1:3, (Holy Ghost) Job 33:4. The 3 are Lord: (Father) Romans 10:12, (Son) Luke 2:11, (Holy Ghost) 2 Cor 3:17. The three are eternal: (Father) Psa 90:2, (Son) Rev 1:8, (Holy Ghost) Heb 9:14. The Three persons are true: (Father) John 7:28, (Son) Rev 3:7, (Holy Ghost) 1 John 5:6. They are Holy: (Father) Rev 15:4, (Son) 6:69, (Holy Ghost) Psa 51:11. …All present: (Father) Jer 23: 23-34, (Holy Ghost) Psa 139:7. …All knowing: (Father) 1 Kgs 8:39, (Son) Col 2:2-3, (Holy Ghost) Jhn 14:26…All Powerful: (Father) Job 42:2, (Son) Col 2:9-10, (Holy Ghost) 1 Cor 12:7,11.
If you read the Book of Mormon title page: And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL God, manifesting himself unto all nations.
Read John 1:1-5,14.
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