What musical instruments are permitted at Mass?

[rondirect]

Sounds like an interesting mix!! Can’t imagine the sound, but it does state in Scriptures to “make a joyful NOISE unto the Lord”.

Trust me, I think you would love the mix. It is not overpowering or loud. The choirs can be heard and lead the congregation beautifully. They seem to love the blended style of musical styles. The pews wouldn’t be filled otherwise when they have choices of 2 other Catholic churches within a 5 mile radius.

 

[Brendan_64]

The Mass is not a repeat of Calvary. Even the consecration of the Eucharist (only part of the Mass) is not a repeat of Calvary. Jesus offered Himself as a sacrifice once for all. This sacrifice will never be repeated. It is a representation of this sacrifice.

Yes it is Calvary. It is not a representation. It is the real, actual, body of Christ, broken for us at the altar. It is the real presence, the real body of Christ broken in front of us and for us. It is not a representation. Calvary happens at every Mass.

 

[Brendan_64]

I personally am rather concerned when I see you condemn “praising the Lord” in the Mass. That’s pretty hard. How can we help but praise the Lord for all that He has done and is doing for us? And what better place or time to praise Him than the Holy Mass?

When have I condemned praising the Lord? You don’t need electric guitars, drum-kits, clapping and hands to the sky to praise the Lord. The Lord is praised at every Mass I attend through hymns from the hymnal, accompanied by a choir and usually an organ. Our Lord is our Lord and Master and ought to be praised with the reverence owed to him.

 

[pnewton]

Yes it is Calvary. It is not a representation. It is the real, actual, body of Christ, broken for us at the altar. It is the real presence, the real body of Christ broken in front of us and for us. It is not a representation. Calvary happens at every Mass.

. The Church never says Calvary is* repeated*. I said the Eucharist is not a* repeat* of Calvary. The Church uses the word representation

The words of the Apostle Paul bring us back to the dramatic setting in which the Eucharist was born. The Eucharist is indelibly marked by the event of the Lord’s passion and death, of which it is not only a reminder but the sacramental re-presentation. (Ecclesia de Eucharista) - JPII

Yes, it is Calvary, but not just Calvary. Unlike John at the foot of the cross, we celebrate the Holy Sacrament also as a banquet. It is both. It is much more. From the Catechism:

a memorial of his death and resurrection: a sacrament of love, a sign of unity, a bond of charity, a Paschal banquet

We celebrate Mass on Sunday as the holy day, not Friday. We are not a people of death and sacrifice, but of life. Jesus has died. Once. For all. We do not have to mourn His death again. Ever. We celebrate His resurrection at Mass on Sunday, a perpetual Easter, not on Friday, as the perpetual John at the foot of the cross. When we celebrate Mass, we do join with Calvary, and with Holy Thursday, and with the banquet that is the wedding feast forever.

I simply can not find it in me to be glum enough for some people on Sunday. It is a day of joy. We sing the Gloria as a people of the resurrection. That is the Mass. If this is not what is seen in the traditional mindset (and I think that may be more myth than reality), the I see the real wisdom in the strides the Church has made through the last decades to remind us of the joy we have in this celebration.

There is plenty of space in Mass for both joy, happiness and solemn gratitude. We can even squeeze in some time for offering and announcements.

 

[pnewton]

When have I condemned praising the Lord? You don’t need electric guitars, drum-kits, clapping and hands to the sky to praise the Lord

Absolutely. I was reminded of this very thing this week. While planning for Christmas, I talked the priest into letting me add Puer Natus (Gregorian version) for a children’s song. It is quite a spirit of joy and I think will go very well with kids.

 

[Brendan_64]

I’m guessing that if you and Brendan 64 and any other person were to make an appointment with your bishop and ask point-blank, “Is it OK for our parishes to use instruments other than the organ during the Mass?” he would probably say, “Of course. Why did you think it wasn’t OK?” although, out of charity, he might not ask that question.

Please don’t make false assumptions. I have NEVER said that the only instrument suitable for mass is the organ. Indeed in an earlier post I said that one of the most reverently played instruments I have ever heard at a Mass was an Irish fiddle played at a Mass in Belfast. You seen to assume (quite falsely) that because I would not be happy with electric guitars and drums that I am opposed to any instrument other than the organ. that is simply not the case, so please refrain from portraying me as such. I would have no problem with a reverently played acoustic guitar, a fiddle, or a flute played in an appropriate manner.

And Sacrosanctum Concilium does not state that all instruments are allowable. Instruments that are profane in nature are not allowed. It is therefore the Church’s position that at least some instruments are not allowable. I would suggest that electric guitars and modern drum kits are not related to the sacred, they are associated primarily with ‘rock and pop’ music’ and therefore they are profane instruments.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

And Sacrosanctum Concilium does not state that all instruments are allowable. Instruments that are profane in nature are not allowed. It is therefore the Church’s position that at least some instruments are not allowable. I would suggest that electric guitars and modern drum kits are not related to the sacred, they are associated primarily with ‘rock and pop’ music’ and therefore they are profane instruments.

I am posting this quote from Br. Jay that was posted in the Traditional forum. I think it applies here as it talk about the role and rights of a Bishop, something that we need to keep in mind when talking about liturgy.

This is not Brother’s position. This has been Catholic tradition since the Church was first divided into dioceses. The bishop is the local Church. Only the Patriarch has jurisdiction over the bishop, which in the case of the Latin Church, we no longer have a patriarch; however, the Bishop of Rome has universal jurisdiction. If what the bishop approves is sustained by the Bishop of Rome, none of us has the authority to overrule it.

It is equally important that in expressing our opinions in matters pertaining to Canon Law and the rights of bishops and major superiors that one always preface one’s statement by saying, "I believe . . . " or "I it is my opinion that . . . " so that any other person who is reading what we are saying knows that this is not an authoritative statement, but a personal opinion. When necessary one should conclude by telling his reader the authoritative rule or custom. I can say, “I believe that there ecumenical services should not be held in a church and that only Catholic liturgy should be held there. However, Canon Law gives the local bishop the authority to make use of the cathedral for any purpose that he deems is pastorally necessary and for any function that he believes does not take away from the dignity of the church building.” A statement made this way still represents us, but does not mislead the reader by appearing to be authoritative or legislative.

We can certainly express as many opinions against it as we want. But we must accept that our opinions against something like this will be like ashes in the wind. The authority of the local bishop and that of the pope overrule our opinions. It is the Church who defines what is holy and sacred, not us.

Brandon64 you are free to believe what you want. What you can’t do is say that the use of musical instruments you don’t like is wrong. That’s not your call to make. If you want to know what the “music policy” is for your diocese, contact them. Get to know your music director in your parish and get involved in helping to bring what you consider more appropriate music into your parish. And if you can’t/won’t do that, please stop telling the people who are stepping up to the plate that their are “doing it wrong”.

 

[rondirect]

I am posting this quote from Br. Jay that was posted in the Traditional forum. I think it applies here as it talk about the role and rights of a Bishop, something that we need to keep in mind when talking about liturgy.

Brandon64 you are free to believe what you want. What you can’t do is say that the use of musical instruments you don’t like is wrong. That’s not your call to make. If you want to know what the “music policy” is for your diocese, contact them. Get to know your music director in your parish and get involved in helping to bring what you consider more appropriate music into your parish. And if you can’t/won’t do that, please stop telling the people who are stepping up to the plate that their are “doing it wrong”.

I agree Oneofthewomen. Brandon64 better not wander to far, especially to remote Catholic churches in Africa and even Hawaii. They use instruments to praise God that are hand made and names of some we never heard of. It’s not the instrument itself, or a group of them, but how they play respectfully and together to support the congregation. How can we judge and call people who use a God given talent in the instrument they master profane? Please name those that you KNOW the church forbids.

 

[Brendan_64]

Brandon64 you are free to believe what you want. What you can’t do is say that the use of musical instruments you don’t like is wrong. That’s not your call to make.

Hang on a minute. I have simply expressed my opinion, as I am entitled to do so.

Get to know your music director in your parish and get involved in helping to bring what you consider more appropriate music into your parish. And if you can’t/won’t do that, please stop telling the people who are stepping up to the plate that their are “doing it wrong”.

You have absolutely no idea what my involvement in my parish is. And there is no ‘music director’ in our parish (we don’t do fancy titles in our parish) but I know the lady who organises most of the music very well. You really have no idea at all what my involvement in my parish is, so please refrain from making false assumptions.

All I have done is express my opinion that electric guitars and drum-kits are not appropriate instruments to have within the liturgy, and are profane in nature. I am perfectly entitled to hold that opinion and to express it.

I really don’t understand why you choose to adopt such an aggressive tone towards people who hold a difference of opinion to you on such issues.

 

[Cat]

Please don’t make false assumptions. I have NEVER said that the only instrument suitable for mass is the organ. Indeed in an earlier post I said that one of the most reverently played instruments I have ever heard at a Mass was an Irish fiddle played at a Mass in Belfast. You seen to assume (quite falsely) that because I would not be happy with electric guitars and drums that I am opposed to any instrument other than the organ. that is simply not the case, so please refrain from portraying me as such. I would have no problem with a reverently played acoustic guitar, a fiddle, or a flute played in an appropriate manner.

And Sacrosanctum Concilium does not state that all instruments are allowable. Instruments that are profane in nature are not allowed. It is therefore the Church’s position that at least some instruments are not allowable. I would suggest that electric guitars and modern drum kits are not related to the sacred, they are associated primarily with ‘rock and pop’ music’ and therefore they are profane instruments.

Forgive me for lumping you in with those who condemn all instruments. You’re right, I forgot about your reference to the Irish fiddle (which I agree would be achingly beautiful to hear at Mass).

It’s still up to the bishop (territorial authority) to determine what is profane and what is sacred. There is no “Official List of Profane Instruments.” And it is very likely that what is profane in one area of the world/U.S. will be sacred in other parts of the world/U.S.

In our diocese, we occasionally hear electric guitars and drum sets in the Masses. The Family Mass at our parish used to include a drummer, but he dropped out of playing for the Mass (very young teenager, probably too much going on in his life, or couldn’t get a ride, or couldn’t keep bringing his drum set to church, etc.).

It’s not our call. You may not like that, and you have the option of attending another Mass or another parish if you had personal problems with the instruments utilized. But it’s not your call or my call. It’s the bishop’s call, and we have to accept his authority in the Church and respect his call.

If the bishop calls our parish priest and says, “No more drum sets in the Mass, and no more keyboard drums in the Mass” I would accept and respect that, and not rail against it. I personally don’t mind drums in the Mass, but it’s not my call.

This is one of the reasons, BTW, that my husband and I converted to the Catholic Church. The lines of authority are clear. We know who’s in charge: Jesus Christ, and He appoints men to carry out His directives. These men have charisms that qualify them to lead the Church on this earth.

Some Catholics seem to desire more personal authority–the ability to challenge the pope, bishops, and priests. Brendan 64, I am not necessarily referring to you, although I suggest that you examine your heart. It’s really easy to fall into the trap that many Protestants endure throughout their lives–constantly questioning decisions that their authorities make.

In Protestantland, there is no true authority. Protestants voluntarily submit to the authority of their pastors or their denominational heads, but if those authorities make decisions that they disagree with, Protestant will leave and go to another church or fellowship.

This is so unsettling to the soul.

Perhaps these comments help you, Brendan 64, and others to understand why I am so adamant that we Catholics should be very careful about challenging the authority of our bishops, or trying to usurp his authority. When I see any hint of this happening, I have flashbacks to the time when my husband and I struggled with “who’s in charge here, anyway?” in our churches, and eventually ended up getting kicked out our Evangelical Protestant church because we failed to correctly determine who the authority figure was in our church.

A lot of Catholics insist that we do have the freedom to think for ourselves and discern whether the bishop is in error or not. Well, certainly we Catholics are not required to park our brains out in the parking lot! But I also think we all need to remember the difference between our education and life experience compared to the education and life experience of most priests/bishops.

Our bishop has a doctoral degree, training in Rome, and years of pastoral experience in parishes. We have secular degrees (Bachelors and Masters), and years of being laymen in Protestant churches. I would not want to go on “Catholic Jeopardy” against our bishop, because I think the score would be "Bishop +$175,000, Cat -$450,000! We just simply don’t have his education, knowledge, wisdom, and charisms.

I’ve stated it a few times in this thread, but I’ll say it again. I think it does us no good to fret over issues like instruments in the Mass, dress codes in the Mass, people who use water bottles in the Mass, etc. Thinking about these things clutters our brain and crowds out more noble thoughts about Our Lord, His Church, and our hope of heaven. Harboring thoughts about the minor issues that have already been decided by our bishop (even if he hasn’t actually issued a written statement) can embitter our souls, harden our hearts, and make us depressed, gloomy, and despondent. It also makes us appear to be unfriendly and uncharitable to other Catholics and non-Catholics. In other words, we become fertile ground for Satan and his evil spirits. We need to obey the words of Philippians 4: 8 & 9.

I hope this post is helpful and thought-provoking.

 

[pnewton]

In reference to “profane”, I would not that Sacrosanctum Concilium avoids the use of this word, so I would not put a lot of stock in that line of reasoning. Rather a more interpretative term of “suitable” is used. If the Church decides to loosen the definition to allow more leeway for the bishops and priest to decide what is best, then we need to accept that. In the context of the liturgy and choosing what is suitable, absurd exaggeration is not a valid argument. For example, no priest is using kazoos or AC/DC music for Mass. Priests are doing almost across the board something that is reasonable, that is, the have valid reasons for their choice, even if we do not agree.

So I will go back to the profane and the holy. When the concept was first introduced in Scripture, it is seen in the Mosaic Law. All the boring stuff about the building of the Tabernacle and the Ark of the Covenant is there to show us that God wanted us do understand the line between the holy and the profane, so much that death was the penalty for crossing that line. Yet the raw material used was itself profane, if we are to take the definition given by those arguing against musical instruments of common usage. After all, gold was used for pagan worship, never, prior to this, for God’s holy place. So much was this common, that even Aaron used gold to make the calf that served as their pagan idol. If there was anything that could be seen as profane and secular, it was gold.

So, while I understand there is specific secular musical pieces that is by its use and history not suitable for Church, the fact of previous use and history does not disqualify any instrument or genre.

 

[pnewton]

This is one of the reasons, BTW, that my husband and I converted to the Catholic Church. The lines of authority are clear. We know who’s in charge: Jesus Christ, and He appoints men to carry out His directives. These men have charisms that qualify them to lead the Church on this earth.

I am with him on this! I know we all have our opinions, but simply relaxing and letting those in charge be in charge is tremendously liberating, if we will let it be.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

Personally I don’t have an objection to an acoustic guitar at a folk mass, but an electric guitar does cross the line in my book and I would consider it a ‘profane’ instrument not suitable for a place inside the liturgy. But in the end, as there are no real rules on this, that is just my opinion.

Incidentally one of the most beautiful instruments I ever heard played during the hymns at Mass was an Irish fiddle at a Mass in Belfast a few years ago. Some people might object to a fiddle in Mass, but it was played with such reverence and beauty.

I disagree. It’s what you play one the instrument that matters. Plus, with the advancement in technology, you can make that guitar sound like anything you want; an acoustic guitar, an organ, or even an Irish fiddle. I’ve done some recordings where a friend of mine used a guitar synth to all the string and horn sections.

With regard to drums mentioned in another post, I could see why people would object to them, because they are more rhythmic than melodic in nature. Use of drums fundamentally changes the nature of the music we typically hear in Church. However, drums are acceptable and used in some cultures.

 

[Cricket2]

We’re not talking about the minor deviations from the rubrics that we sometimes see today, or the occasional ‘Folk Mass’ (which I actually quite like on occasion). Pope John Paul II really did put an end to it, and there is still some hankering resentment in some quarters that he did.

No, we are not talking about “minor deviations.” I still hold that the issue is the manner of presentation and reverence. There are certainly certain songs and types of music that are not appropriate for Mass.

What must not happen, is the Choir or musicians becoming so self important, or the peoples musical preferences becoming so dominating, that all any of them are there for is the music. The Choirs should not be there to entertain, and the Parishioners to be entertained.

There must be a deliberate attempt to present music and song that the worshipers can participate with so that it is part of their worship of God. The songs need to be of the nature that they refer to and adore God. On that note, I am really sick of the words being changed in an original piece of work so it “becomes more inclusive.” I view this as a form of vandalism and disrespect to the original author. For example: Changing the word “mankind” to “human kind.” If you understand languages well enough you know that Mankind does not exclude women and there is no need to become so wishy washy.

 

[clem456]

Why not just let your bishop do his job of being “the competent territorial authority” in charge of these decisions, and cheerfully and confidentally obey whatever he decides about instruments in his diocescan parishes?

This should be a sticky at the top of the forum.
Why can’t modern Catholics wrap their heads around obedience (ob-audiere, “to listen”)? Obedience is not merely to a GIRM or cannon, but to the living magisterium. Why can’t modern Catholics wrap their heads around that? Honest question, I’m curious if anyone has answers for that.

We have a Mass with a drum kit and acoustic guitars. I do not like it, but for someone to say they would leave the parish and even the diocese…that’s an indication of who the center of their faith is.

 

[Jaberwocky]

This should be a sticky at the top of the forum.
Why can’t modern Catholics wrap their heads around obedience (ob-audiere, “to listen”)? Obedience is not merely to a GIRM or cannon, but to the living magisterium. Why can’t modern Catholics wrap their heads around that? Honest question, I’m curious if anyone has answers for that.

We have a Mass with a drum kit and acoustic guitars. I do not like it, but for someone to say they would leave the parish and even the diocese…that’s an indication of who the center of their faith is.

Could it be for the simple reason that there has been a widespread presence of Bishops who have dissented against the Catholic Church on not just liturgical matters but also on doctrinal matters like contraception and same sex marriage?

Surely, when such things exist, the faithful cannot just “accept” a Bishop’s authority when there is evidence clearly to suggest that what he has approved is ill conceived?

 

[clem456]

Could it be for the simple reason that there has been a widespread presence of Bishops who have dissented against the Catholic Church on not just liturgical matters but also on doctrinal matters like contraception and same sex marriage?

Surely, when such things exist, the faithful cannot just “accept” a Bishop’s authority when there is evidence clearly to suggest that what he has approved is ill conceived?

Now you are baiting people.

No one said anything about contraception and same sex marriage. But as long as you brought the accusation up, why don’t you name specifics?
Which bishops do you propose we do not accept authority from?
Specifically.

 

[Elizium23]

The lines of authority are not so clear, Cat, because if they were then we would be enjoying Gregorian chant, organ, and Latin having pride of place in the liturgies, with sacred polyphony and noble instruments also given honor, while profane instruments and music being forbidden. We would be hearing proper antiphons chanted most of the time in place of hymns. This is what the universal Roman Rite documents call for, and none of this is what the bishops and pastors around the world have decreed for local parishes. So we have to ask if Rome’s liturgical legislation is really all that effective when it is more honored in the breach. Most of us believe that Rome has supreme authority over local bishops in those liturgical matters which she has not delegated to them. There are certainly myriad options and choices to be made by the ordinary, and it is possible that they all consider Rome’s clear preferences to be mere options to be freely ignored. That is the paradox I wonder about today. If the Church were an oligarchy and the priests and bishops all had a say in drawing up these documents, they would look quite different. But even “Sing to the Lord”, a USCCB document which does not have recognitio or the force of law, liberally quotes Church documents in regard to those forms of music and instruments which are to be accorded pride of place.

So honestly I see a disconnect here in what the Church is willing to put down on paper vs. what she allows and encourages in practice worldwide.

 

[Brendan_64]

For example, no priest is using kazoos or AC/DC music for Mass. Priests are doing almost across the board something that is reasonable, that is, the have valid reasons for their choice, even if we do not agree.

So, while I understand there is specific secular musical pieces that is by its use and history not suitable for Church, the fact of previous use and history does not disqualify any instrument or genre.

Not even kazoos?

Kazoos have not been.listed as a ‘profane instrument’, so why not use them? Electric guitars, drum-kits, synthesisers… why not kazoos? Maybe we could also have granny play the spoons at Mass? Or a didgeridoo? Or perhaps a ‘wobble-board’? Or even have one of the parish ‘yoof’ do the human beat-box? That might draw in the ‘kids’.

After all, none of the above is actually listed as being prohibited.

 

[Havard]

I’m sorry if this is too much of a tangent, but even if rock music isn’t deemed profane, I think the whole “rock music to attract young people” thing is a short-sided tactic.

Now I’m 36, so in most circles I probably don’t count as a “young” adult anymore. But either I still do, marginally, or it wasn’t that long ago. Regardless, no one I know who was into those “rock Masses” 10-20 years ago are active in the local parishes now. I realize anecdotal evidence is hardly ironclad proof, and I will confess that more likely than music, the biggest problem was that the most hotbutton issues among young people were avoided (gay marriage, contraception). But either way you have all these maturing Catholics who associate reverent worship with “archaic judgmentalism” and it seems they are driven to Protestant churches because our YA outreaches are (at least in my experience) poorly executed.