What Muslims are taught in their mosques - unbiased

[Grace_Seeker]

And third, as even you agreed with me, there is value in making connections.

In 2001 I knew next to nothing about Islam. Today I have Muslim friends and family. I am in regular conversation with an Islamic community where we seek to understand each other. I have seen Muslims speaking strongly to other Muslims who suggested any sort of militant or even unlawful behavior in response to perceived insults to Islam. They have declared such views to NOT be part of Islam. They refute the positions of those who cherry pick lines from the Qur’an and hadiths to justify acts of aggression in the name of Islam.

And from me they have learned that the west is not a monolithic entity that many had thought it was. Having learned some of the language of the culture (I don’t mean Arabic, I mean the way of thinking that perceives the importance of jihad as a struggle for righteousness), I was able to communicate that this is not something unique to Islam, that indeed Christian around the globe share this concern (we call it by other names than they do like righteousness, which is my term not theirs, and sanctification). Muslims in many places have a very narrowly defined view of Christianity and of the west as a whole.

(When I used the phrase “islam as a whole”, you objected to it rightly stating that their is no Islam as a whole. But I had not intended such an understanding, I was referring to the whole of your approach toward Islam. That while it may not be wrong in every respect, that taken as a whole, I think your approach to Islam is greatly misguided. But, now when I use the phrase “the west as a whole”, I do indeed mean that many Muslims especially those who have become radicalized, tend to view “the west” as a monolithic entity.)

Making contact with Muslims from some of these hotspots of the world and developing relations with them, helps to reshape their perception of reality. Now, if they were to read my writings and your writings, which one of us do you think they will feel more inclined to continue being in conversation with and which one of us more inclined to just attempt to reject and treat as hostile to their overall purpose in life?

I have and do stand up for myself with some of these radicalize Muslims I have interacted with. (And I don’t mean to imply that those Muslims I am acquainted with are all radicalized, in fact few of them are even in agreement with the concepts of radical Islam. And none of those that I have come to have a personal kinship with.) I don’t condone any of their ideology, and I would move to stop them from putting it to action if I were to become aware of it. But, at the same time, they have confessed that they have learned from me that not everything is as they once perceived it to be. So, we debate, and we chat endlessly, and we reconsider and review, and it is a marathon discussion that most frequently seems to go nowhere. And then I remember. It is going nowhere. These few radicalized Muslims that I have contact with have elected to debate with me rather than act out their ideology. We are talking, and no one (at least to the best of my knowledge) is building bombs. And as long as that remains true, I feel that maybe I am winning. In fact, maybe we both are.

 

[Montalban]

Please point to the post where I have done so, or retract this accusation.

Edwin

You’ve argued Jihad as war, is not central to Islam. In point of fact you seem to believe you know what is and isn’t Islamic, and you berrate others who make the same claims.

You said, for instance…

Certainly the Islamic concept of “honor” and their willingness to respond violently to a perceived attack (even a purely rhetorical one) is one of the most potent sources of violence in the world today.

So, you know about the “Islamic concept…” Those who oppose you can not. Thank you for teaching us

 

[Montalban]

No one was born with a desire to kill me. This was a learned ideology, and it can be unlearned.

Although I agree with you, it’s an odd point that Moslems believe that they’re all, we’re all, in fact, born Moslem - and that those that aren’t Moslem are taught to be different from this.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

You’ve argued Jihad as war, is not central to Islam

Jihad as war is NOT central to Islam. War might be one aspect of Jihad in Islam, but it is centrally not central to Islam. Not even the radicals teach that, they merely try to convince that war is the appropriate response to the current struggle. An idea rejected throughout most of Islam.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Although I agree with you, it’s an odd point that Moslems believe that they’re all, we’re all, in fact, born Moslem - and that those that aren’t Moslem are taught to be different from this.

Yeah, I agree that it is an interesting teaching. Of course, I call that “teaching” the doctrine of inherited depravity which they reject.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif

Absolutely…! How does one “actively love” someone who’s ONLY goal is to kill you such that he lives and you live and you both love each other?

Please DO try to make that happen.

No one was born with a desire to kill me. This was a learned ideology, and it can be unlearned.

That’s quite true. And I agree with your “tactics” below as to how to do that. All I’m saying is that sometimes we run into utter intransigence, and that needs to be dealt with in a way which convinces the evil doer to stop doing evil behavior.

Sometimes that way is physical.

To do that requires several things;

1. A willingness to begin with one’s self. Ask the difficult questions, “In what ways have I contributed to the present problem?” Is there anything I can change that might alievate that part of the problem which I have been party to? Am I willing to make such changes? If not, am I willing to live with the consequences?
2. Seek to understand the other person. How is it that he perceives me? Is it a valid perception? Is it one I want him to have? If not, what can I do to re-educate him regarding that point of view?
3. What motivates his ill will toward me? Does he have goals that can be met that don’t require we be in conflict? If it is not intrinsic that we be in conflict, how can I help him meet those goals and avoid conflict? Can I learn another way to deal with him? Can I teach him another way to deal with me?

Yes, these things require risk. But all of life requires risks, including an aggressive defense.

We have asked over 3000 of our country’s finest young men and women to lay down their lives for a cause that will not bring us eithe peace or security.

The “cause” is to try to convince evil doers to not do evil, and stop them from doing evil if they insist on doing it.

What “cause” are you talking about?

While the rest of us blithely go about our routine daily lives. Wouldn’t it be better to have forestalled the need for war by taking the risk of pursuing peace.

Your “solution” doesn’t take into consideration the intransigent islamist (jihadi). It also doesn’t take into consideration the intransigent “bad secular moslem”, like Saddam.

I agree with you that mutual understanding and “good example” are laudible tactics when dealing with those amenable to them, but your blanket assertion that “war is never the answer” is extremely naive, to say the least.

But as I said, you get me wrong if you think that I am a pacificist. I think that the President had no other choice than the one he took in pursuing Al-Qeeda in Afghanistan and wherever else bin Laden and other terrorist might have gone. But I think you do wrong to speak as if this justifiies all that you have said here with regard to Islam. /

What I’ve said as regards islam is my opinion as to the “validity” of islam as a “good thing” and it as a religion at all, in practice.

I do not condone any general oppression of “moderate moslems” and only taking action in response to the behavior of any evildoer, be he moslem or otherwise.

I am allowed my opinion that “moderate moslems” do not know their “religion” (islam), which allows them the ability to act contrary to the dictates of islam (non-“external”-jihad).

I also believe that true followers of islam are by definition jihadis (“external variety”) and need to be identified and closely monitored as a general threat to mankind.

You say you are only concerned with the radical Islamists. That is as much sticking one’s head in the sand as any other solution. It is just a different bucket of sand.

You’ll have to explain how you come to that conclusion to me in more detail. It will be very interesting to hear.

…continued below:

 

[Keikiolu]

…continued from above:

The reality of Islam is different than what you write about.

That is your considered opinion, I’m sure, and you are welcome to it. May your opinion of islam work for you to make this a better world.

You do scare me. You scare me because your rhetoric will agitate those who do not think clearly to react to all Muslims as if they were all terrorists.

My opinion if islam calls for conclusions to be made regarding how to deal with the “problem” of islam. Since you don’t see the “problems” as I see them, you will come to different conclusions than I will.

You scare me in my perception of your views as much as I scare you, I’m sure. But if you truly believe in your views, then you’ll have to deal with me in the same manner you deal with “islamists” to make me see the truth.

Best of luck with that.

You scare me because your rhetoric will agitate those Muslims who are not terrorists to fear that they must become such to protect their way of life and their ideology.

Your fears are unfounded. I’ll probably not convince you of that, but I’m not overly concerned with convincing you of that.

My concern is to treat good behaving people in a Christian way, and evil behaving people in a Christian way,… and sometimes that means “tough love”.

You scare me because you ratchet up the tension that leads to conflict and do nothing to solve it. And you scare me because you paint with such a broad brush that it is almost as if I am hearing a paraphrase of the words of a 150 years ago when people thought the only good Indian was a dead Indian.

Then yu hear me wrong. There’s nothing I can do about that.

And again, you scare me because you do not understand the issue and yet you speak to it. You ask: “How does one ‘actively love’ someone who’s ONLY goal is to kill you such that he lives and you live and you both love each other?” This presupposes that such a person exists. I do not believe that description even fits the likes of those terrorists who have attacked and killed people. They had other goals. The killing that they have done was a means to an end, it was not the end in itself. Hence it was not their ONLY goal.

Evil exists. Some men are utterly captivated by it. To not accept that as reality is supreme naivete.

I salute you for your naivete, as that is the breeding ground of martyrdom, which is a marvelous way of highlighting the difference between the evil doer and the saint.

Not all are called to martyrdom, as those times in history when battlelines were righteously drawn against islamic aggression prove.

Now, how does one “actively love” people who use violence as a means to an end? First, as I indicated above, I think we try to reach them BEFORE things are so bad that people begin to consider violence as an option.

That’s lovely, but what if you get there 15 minutes late, and that bus has left the station?

Even as we must defend ourselves when actually under attack, and I never suggested otherwise, that doesn’t mean that we have to become attackers ourselves.

I absolutely agree…! Stopping evil is ALWAYS a reaction, but it may very well be a reaction to the THREAT of evildoing.

Second, how did Jesus respond to the violence that he experienced in his life? Sometimes the result may be that we die for peace, I do not think we should be so afraid of this. What value does terrorism have if it is is not something that terrorizes us?

I agree, we should not be afraid of death, as we know what comes after it.

Terrorism should not “terrify” anyone, but it should “motivate” us to do what is right to minimize the evil in the world, of which “terrorism” is both an example and a symptom.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Montalban]

Jihad as war is NOT central to Islam.

That’s not the immediate point. The point here is that one person’s saying to others they can’t say what’s ‘Islamic’ then is happily telling everyone else what is, and isn’t Islamic, themselves

War might be one aspect of Jihad in Islam, but it is centrally not central to Islam.

Jihad is central to Islam

Jihad through war is seen as legitimate by all major Islamic schools, througout their history (see Bostom’s Legacy of Jihad)

 

[atlien]

Several of my closest friends in Atlanta, both male and female, are Muslims and I have in the past seriously considered becoming a Muslim.

However, very simply, i did not do so because altho Islam honors Jesus greatly as a prophet, i really believe that Jesus is God become human who dies to save us and who rose from the dead, – and so i am a Christian. Further I believe that Jesus is really present in the Eucharist so i guess that makes me at least a small c catholic Christian (tho some might disagree with that definition i guess).

But i digress,

Anyway, i’ve just started browsing the Catholic Answers forum, and having an interest in Islam I took a gander at this thread. To be honest, i must sadly say that i am not at all surprised by the tone of some of the posts – not because it’s a Catholic board but because it’s a Chrstian one in North America. By that i mean that i expected opinions to be expressed that reflect i lack of knowledge about Islam. Sadly that’s the rule in the US and not the exception and i dont blame people for it too much, because the media, especially some of the more hyper-jingoistic elements of the media, aren’t exactly a force for truth or even fairness and balance.

It’s not really my intention to get involved with this thread after this post, because, believe me, i’ve heard all the arguments, charges, claims, and counter-claims over and over, in many other places, and it’s always the same old arguments, the same taking chunks of scripture verses out of context (be it the Bible or the Qur’an), the same lack of effort to try to get the bigger picture before jumping to conclusions. (I am most definitely NOT singling this board out on this, please let me make clear!)

But a little very basic study would at least enable the discusion to be raised to a level wherein the exchange of opinions from all sides would be based on more knowledge.

First, as has been stated, but which some still refuse to really believe, is that Islam is a huge religion, like Christianity, with all kinds of folks, and many different strands, etc.

Also, the lay-clerical dichotomy has no meaning in Islam except for some sects maybe. (The minority Shi’a Islam has its system of ayatollahs but whether that is analagous to Christian clericalism i’m not sure as i am not very knowledgeable at all about Shi’a Islam.) Sure there is leadership, local congregations have imams, but they are not considered ordained or set apart, they are just recognised community leaders. But even tho Shi’a Islam has many millions of adherents, it is very much a minority within Islam as a whole, something like 9%, much more a minority vis-a-vis the Sunni’s overwhelming majority, than the 3 major branches of Christianity (Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Protestantism) are to each other.

And, for the umpteenth time, there is NO central binding authoritative body or personage, no vatican, no central conference, or whatever. Consensus, over time, is the way things are arrived at. Any Tom, **** or Harry can call himself an authority and declare a fatwa (religious ruling or judgement). A fatwa is only as good as the reputable-ness (is that a word ) level of the person or body issuing it It can be at times a messy way to do things i guess, but that sometimes can be the case with non-centralized systems.

To equate extremist sects with Islam as a whole is the same as if one used Jim Jones or that oh so Christ-like Rev. Fred Phelps who shows up with his little congregation at funerals to scream anti-gay invective at the mourners.

And to be real, the fact that there are few caucasian Muslims in this country tends to add to the marginalisation.

As noted above, several of my closest friends are Muslim, with one exception native-born in the u.s.a. working/middle-class folks.who i’ve known over the years and had many conversations on all kinds of things, including occasionally religion. They are normal everyday folk – if there is any difference they tend to be a lcommitted to practicing their religion – but that is an overly general statement on m part.

While i have familiarity with Islam i am certainly no scholar. But if one wishes, one can find the broader picture. I recommend Karen Armstrong’s books, for example, as well as what i consider a pretty great website www.muslimwakeup.com – you will definitely get a diversity of viewpoints there – ,very liberal to very conservative, and also ijncluding Christian, Jewish, and other non-Muslim viewpoints.

Sorry if i got long-winded.

 

[atlien]

Typo in above post:

I typed:
i really believe that Jesus is God become human who dies to save us

I meant to type:
i really believe that Jesus is God become human who died to save us

 

[atlien]

Groan, another typo:
As noted above, several of my closest friends are Muslim, with one exception native-born in the u.s.a. working/middle-class folks.who i’ve known over the years and had many conversations on all kinds of things, including occasionally religion. They are normal everyday folk – if there is any difference they tend to be a lcommitted to practicing their religion – but that is an overly general statement on m part.

should be
As noted above, several of my closest friends are Muslim, with one exception, they are native born-in-the-u.s.a. working/middle-class folks.who i’ve known over the years and had many conversations on all kinds of things, including, on occasion, religion. They are normal everyday folk – if there is any difference they tend to be a little more committed to practicing their religion – but that could be an overly general statement on my part.

I’m not going to look for any more typos.

 

[Montalban]

Several of my closest friends in Atlanta, both male and female, are Muslims and I have in the past seriously considered becoming a Muslim.

Moslems aren’t supposed to have close non-Moslem friends!
It is not permissible for a Muslim man or woman to take a male or female friend who is not a Muslim, because Allaah has forbidden us to love the kuffaar or take them as close friends and companions

islamqa.com/index.php?ref=69876&ln=eng
This opinion is based on the Koranic verse…

Koran 5:51

O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliya’ (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliya’ to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliya’, then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust).

However, very simply, i did not do so because altho Islam honors Jesus greatly as a prophet, i really believe that Jesus is God become human who dies to save us and who rose from the dead, – and so i am a Christian. Further I believe that Jesus is really present in the Eucharist so i guess that makes me at least a small c catholic Christian (tho some might disagree with that definition i guess).

Islam does not honour Jesus as we do. They claim Jesus was a man, who was a Moslem. They think we lied about the message of Jesus - distorting it from the message that he came to give.

Anyway, i’ve just started browsing the Catholic Answers forum, and having an interest in Islam I took a gander at this thread. To be honest, i must sadly say that i am not at all surprised by the tone of some of the posts – not because it’s a Catholic board but because it’s a Christian one in North America. By that i mean that i expected opinions to be expressed that reflect i lack of knowledge about Islam. Sadly that’s the rule in the US and not the exception and i dont blame people for it too much, because the media, especially some of the more hyper-jingoistic elements of the media, aren’t exactly a force for truth or even fairness and balance.

So my opinion’s okay, 'cause I’m not from North America?

But a little very basic study would at least enable the discusion to be raised to a level wherein the exchange of opinions from all sides would be based on more knowledge.

Earlier you based your opinion on your friends, now you want ‘study’.

First, as has been stated, but which some still refuse to really believe, is that Islam is a huge religion, like Christianity, with all kinds of folks, and many different strands, etc.

Islam’s also got a component of commonality, else it’d not be called by the one name.

And, for the umpteenth time, there is NO central binding authoritative body or personage, no vatican, no central conference, or whatever. Consensus, over time, is the way things are arrived at. Any Tom, **** or Harry can call himself an authority and declare a fatwa (religious ruling or judgement). A fatwa is only as good as the reputable-ness (is that a word ) level of the person or body issuing it It can be at times a messy way to do things i guess, but that sometimes can be the case with non-centralized systems.

This is a nonsense rebuttal. There is ‘opinion’ that is in consensus as to the nature of Jihad that goes back centuries and across all the major schools of thought; see Bostom’s book “The Legacy of Jihad” where he collects this.

If Any tom, *** or harry could do this, then where’s the great ground-swell of opinion condeming 9/11 ?

Your argument is based on knowledge of your friends. Then you refer to ‘study’ that others are lacking - but you offer none. Then you refer again to your friends. In other words your personal experience leads you to think others haven’t studied Islam. This is reinforced by… wait for it… your personal experience!

You are confused as to how Islam honours Jesus. Imagine you have an idea of your mother being a great woman. You here from a group of criminals that they ‘respect’ her as a major player in the underworld. They honour her, you honour her. They do not honour her as you do, and are in fact totally wrong about her. It’s not therefore the same thing.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

It’s the old, “I only know Islam from talking to my friends but I know enough to know that you don’t know anything about it at all.”

and the old, “I only know Islam from talking to my friends but you are generalizing Islam from a few extremists.”

and the old, “you don’t live in Muslim countries so you don’t know Islam but I do because I talk to my Muslim friends.”

Thanks.

 

[Montalban]

It’s the old, “I only know Islam from talking to my friends but I know enough to know that you don’t know anything about it at all.”

and the old, “I only know Islam from talking to my friends but you are generalizing Islam from a few extremists.”

and the old, “you don’t live in Muslim countries so you don’t know Islam but I do because I talk to my Muslim friends.”

Thanks.

I often wondered how my ‘generalisations’ are wrong and theirs are right !

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Jihad is central to Islam

Jihad through war is seen as legitimate by all major Islamic schools, througout their history (see Bostom’s Legacy of Jihad)

Please read again what I said.

I know that Jihad is indeed central to Islam. Whether or not the term Jihad is used, you will hear Islam speaking of life as a test. Islam is a struggle to live a righteous life in the eyes of Allah, to be found worthy in the end by having done more good than bad.

And you are also correct that every single school of Islam believes in war as one of the acceptable forms of Jihad when they perceive a threat to Islam, or even a threat to the honor of Allah or their prophet

What I said was

War might be one aspect of Jihad in Islam, but it is centrally not central to Islam.

That is that while Jihad is central to Islam and war is permitted, war was not central to Jihad in Islam.

Many Christians believe in a theory of just war, though the textual support will very (Bible verses versus Quranic verses and hadiths), the philosophy of war looks to the same principal justifications in both Christianity and Islam. One is not intrinsically more warlike than the other.

I will hasten to add, by way of commentary, that my personal view is that Islam is to war what African honeybees are to agressiveness – more easily provoked to action than are others, but their motive (defense of their hive/lifestyle) remains the same as others have.

 

[Montalban]

Please read again what I said.

I understood what you said. I disagree.
Jihad as war is central to Islam. What is deemed to be a ‘threat’ to Islam can be anything as little as my standing up for Christianity.

The very fact we’re Christians is a threat to Islam. That’s why Bostom’s able to source hundreds of opinions on this and we see the destruction of Christian communities by Moslems throughout the centuries.

Many Christians believe in a theory of just war, though the textual support will very (Bible verses versus Quranic verses and hadiths), the philosophy of war looks to the same principal justifications in both Christianity and Islam. One is not intrinsically more warlike than the other.

That’s simply false. Muhammed is the example for Moslems and he lead forces into battle, and whether he enacted ‘war’ or merely murder it was still seen as a legitimate form of Jihad.

Thus if Jihad is central to Islam and war is central to Jihad, then war is central to Islam.

Here’s just one modern opinion site…
Question:
Can we really participate in Jihaad when we don’t have any khalifa to organise us, or we don’t have the strength to fight them? Do we behave like the Prophet (SM) did having patience and trust in Allah (S) before gaining the strength to fight the kuffar?

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

Jihaad for the sake of Allaah is the pinnacle of Islam, and is one of the principles of the religion. It does not depend on there being an imaam (khaleefah or ruler)… But obviously jihaad requires preparation and organization, and the existence of a leader of the army who can weigh up the pros and cons. This strikes the balance between those who are reckless and pay no attention to the regulations of sharee’ah, and those who neglect this duty and ignore it completely.

It is obligatory to follow the example of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) in all his affairs, which includes preparation and equipping oneself.

Note Jihad is the pinnacle of Islam, and the context is an army. The distinction is so fine as to be non-existent. You think there’s a difference. I’ve seen no evidence of this.

I also note your attempts at tu quoque without showing any causal link between Christ’s teachings and the actions of Christians.

 

[Palladio]

Can’t help but think that the true test of “What Muslims are taught in their mosques”–if ever we could back to the op–is easily seen in Islamic societies themselves and their universal persecution of (where they have not completely eradicated) other religions, especially Christianity: see the Barnabas Fund website for an accurate and comprehensive map of persecution: www.barnabasfund.org. I’ll add the fund is Protestant, not Catholic. This is not the first time I have referred to this site, but nobody, especially those wearing the rose-colored glasses, seems to have visited the site for a look or comment.

 

[Montalban]

Can’t help but think that the true test of “What Muslims are taught in their mosques”–if ever we could back to the op–is easily seen in Islamic societies themselves and their universal persecution of (where they have not completely eradicated) other religions, especially Christianity: see the Barnabas Fund website for an accurate and comprehensive map of persecution: www.barnabasfund.org. I’ll add the fund is Protestant, not Catholic. This is not the first time I have referred to this site, but nobody, especially those wearing the rose-colored glasses, seems to have visited the site for a look or comment.

I’ve book-marked their site now. Thanks

A site for those on the board in Oz can be found at Voice of the Martyrs - but it’s a Protestant site

 

[Palladio]

The Barnabas Fund website seems to be revamped, and I don’t see the map they had posted, but it is still a useful resource on “the persecuted Church.”

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Thus if Jihad is central to Islam and war is central to Jihad, then war is central to Islam.

This is where you go askew. War is NOT central to Jihad. War is ACCEPTABLE, it indeed may be a MEANS, but it simply is not CENTRAL. That distinction is not fine; it is roughly cut into Islam. If you fail to see the distinction, then you simply do not properly understand Islam yet.