What Muslims are taught in their mosques - unbiased

[Palladio]

Mirdath’s argument was not a logical fallacy. If Osama bin Laden were to claim that his behavior was correct because some Christians had done this sort of thing in the past, that would be the tu quoque fallacy. Obviously Mirdath was not saying this. His argument was rather a form of reductio ad absurdum.

Booklover argued as follows:

1. Muslims claim that their religion is a religion of peace
2. But some Muslims (enough to appear regularly on the news) act in a way that contradicts this
3. Therefore Islam is not a religion of peace.

From this one can generate the following generalization:

If a significant number of the members of any religion act in a way that contradicts moral principle X, then moral principle X is not characteristic of that religion.

Now we test this generalization (and hence Booklover’s argument) by applying it to Christianity:

1. Christianity claims to be a religion of love
2. A significant number of Christians (enough to appear regularly in the news) act in an unloving manner
3. Therefore, Christianity is not a religion of love

Mirdath’s argument rests on the assumption that Booklover would agree that proposition 3 is absurd. Of course if Booklover is willing to admit that Christianity is not a religion of love, *then *Mirdath’s argument fails.

Myself, I think that any characterization of a religion as a “religion of this” or “religion of that” is pointless, at least for the purposes of outsiders to the religion.

Edwin

The evidence for Muslims spewing hatred out of the mouths of their Imams is obvious, as is the silence of Muslims at Islamo-Facist terror, but rather than succumb to fatalism or indifference, why not a commonsense approach to understanding Islam?

Read the Koran, look into the life of Mohammed–who, hate the spoil the fun for you, FOUNDED A POLITICAL RELIGION, with submission to Islam a central tenet (submission).

If you are then convinced that Islam poses no threat to Catholics, Christians, or liberal democracy, start a new thread here singing the praises of Allah and his prophet, or move to the Middle East (where Islam is legion) to study it all up close, but please no more warm and fuzzy politically-correct gestures.

If Islam is an enemy, Christ enjoins us to love.

But let’s see if it is an enemy lest we mistake it for a friend.

 

[Booklover]

Mirdath’s argument was not a logical fallacy. If Osama bin Laden were to claim that his behavior was correct because some Christians had done this sort of thing in the past, that would be the tu quoque fallacy. Obviously Mirdath was not saying this. His argument was rather a form of reductio ad absurdum.

Booklover argued as follows:

1. Muslims claim that their religion is a religion of peace
2. But some Muslims (enough to appear regularly on the news) act in a way that contradicts this
3. Therefore Islam is not a religion of peace.

From this one can generate the following generalization:

If a significant number of the members of any religion act in a way that contradicts moral principle X, then moral principle X is not characteristic of that religion.

Now we test this generalization (and hence Booklover’s argument) by applying it to Christianity:

1. Christianity claims to be a religion of love
2. A significant number of Christians (enough to appear regularly in the news) act in an unloving manner
3. Therefore, Christianity is not a religion of love

Mirdath’s argument rests on the assumption that Booklover would agree that proposition 3 is absurd. Of course if Booklover is willing to admit that Christianity is not a religion of love, *then *Mirdath’s argument fails.

Myself, I think that any characterization of a religion as a “religion of this” or “religion of that” is pointless, at least for the purposes of outsiders to the religion.

Edwin

Show us where Christ taught anything like this. I’ve never stated that Christians have not done bad things, we are sinners like everyone else, but our religion does not teach intolerant things like those. Islam does and that’s the difference.

Vickie

 

[An_Agnostic]

It makes me very sad to read some of these posts.

There will never be peace within humanity given such egos. Trying to rationalize their intolerance in support of their belief… that goes beyond me.

 

[Contarini]

Show us where Christ taught anything like this. I’ve never stated that Christians have not done bad things, we are sinners like everyone else, but our religion does not teach intolerant things like those.

You are shifting the ground. You said originally that Muslims are in the news committing atrocities, and therefore Islam can’t be a religion of peace. Now you are making a completely different comparison.

You will get no argument out of me on the proposition that the character and teaching of Christ are immeasurably superior to that of Muhammad!

Edwin

 

[fatma]

You are shifting the ground. You said originally that Muslims are in the news committing atrocities, and therefore Islam can’t be a religion of peace. Now you are making a completely different comparison.

You will get no argument out of me on the proposition that the character and teaching of Christ are immeasurably superior to that of Muhammad!

Edwin

but why aren’t all muslims committing atrocities? - either they are bad muslims or the criminal ones are not following islam.
I know hundreds of muslims and they are no better or worse than anyone else. I also know many who take their religion seriously and live the islamic moral code and are really admirable in the way they conduct themselves. On that basis I believe what i see, that islam guides these people to be decent and honourable human beings. I am appalled at the vilification of muslims by the media.

 

[Montalban]

but why aren’t all muslims committing atrocities? - either they are bad muslims or the criminal ones are not following islam.

Or, the good ones are not following Islam!

I know hundreds of muslims and they are no better or worse than anyone else.

I’m sure not everyone in the Nazi Party, let alone Nazi Germany killed Jews.

In fact, one of them, Oskar Schindler, saved hundreds. By your logic, none of the Nazis killed them because one saved them!

 

[Montalban]

Yes two bigots from australia how embarassing for a fellow aussie

Let’s not say anything about the oppression by North Korea, or we’ll be cast as bigots!

 

[Palladio]

but why aren’t all muslims committing atrocities? - either they are bad muslims or the criminal ones are not following islam.
I know hundreds of muslims and they are no better or worse than anyone else. I also know many who take their religion seriously and live the islamic moral code and are really admirable in the way they conduct themselves. On that basis I believe what i see, that islam guides these people to be decent and honourable human beings. I am appalled at the vilification of muslims by the media.

All Muslims?

The question is what the situation is politically and ethically where Islam holds sway. The answer, in the Middle East, is extremely poor: persecution of Christianity, anti-semiticism, homophobia, misogyny, genital mutilation, tribalism, Islamo-terrorism, Islamo-facism, …

 

[jedi]

i agree with dolphinlove & vickie…

please read Ibn Warraq’s book…very inspired book…

I AM THE LORD THY GOD THOU SHALL HAVE NO STRANGE GODS BEFORE ME…

 

[fatma]

Or, the good ones are not following Islam!

I’m sure not everyone in the Nazi Party, let alone Nazi Germany killed Jews.

In fact, one of them, Oskar Schindler, saved hundreds. By your logic, none of the Nazis killed them because one saved them!

and so because the IRA were catholics, all catholics are terrorists? and how obscene, comparing islam to the nazis, how low will u go? u wouldn’t be from cronulla would u?

All Muslims?

The question is what the situation is politically and ethically where Islam holds sway. The answer, in the Middle East, is extremely poor: persecution of Christianity, anti-semiticism, homophobia, misogyny, genital mutilation, tribalism, Islamo-terrorism, Islamo-facism, …

the biggest islamic country is indonesia actually, much of what u claim is islam is cultural, genital mutilation is a cultural practise that can be found amongst jewish and christian communities in northern africa, stop believing everything u read. none of things u mention are characteristic of australian muslims. maybe u need to understand cultural differences and influences before condemning a 5th of the world’s population

 

[Palladio]

and so because the IRA were catholics, all catholics are terrorists? and how obscene, comparing islam to the nazis, how low will u go? u wouldn’t be from cronulla would u?

the biggest islamic country is indonesia actually, much of what u claim is islam is cultural, genital mutilation is a cultural practise that can be found amongst jewish and christian communities in northern africa, stop believing everything u read. none of things u mention are characteristic of australian muslims. maybe u need to understand cultural differences and influences before condemning a 5th of the world’s population

Condemn? You are jumping to conclusions. I pity Muslims and pray for their conversion.

If Australian Muslims are better off than in the Middle East, that is because Australia is a democracy.

Sharia law and democracy are incompatible: the former must submit to the latter in the West, or go back to where it came.

 

[fatma]

Koran ‘no match for violent Bible’
The Australian ^ | November 29, 2005 | Samantha Maiden

Posted on 11/28/2005 12:52:12 PM PST by nickcarraway

MUSLIM extremists may use the Koran to justify their terror attacks, “but when it comes to good old-fashioned violence, the Judaeo-Christian God is hard to beat”.

NSW Labor MP Julia Irwin – considered a serial offender on religious issues by her own party – ignited a new controversy yesterday as she described devout Christians as “happy clappers” and said the Bible was more bloodthirsty than the Koran.

Attacking what she claims is a culture of fear faced by Muslims living in Australia, Ms Irwin, a Catholic convert, hit out at the violence of the Old Testament.

Her outburst sparked an immediate rebuke last night from Kim Beazley – but Ms Irwin refused to back down, arguing she was “speaking the truth”.

“Those who refer to Muslim fundamentalists may choose to quote from the Holy Koran and there are passages that might be taken to show a vengeful God,” Ms Irwin told federal parliament.

"But when it comes to good old-fashioned violence, the Judaeo-Christian God is hard to beat.

“If I was to take those verses as written, I could easily associate any Christian fundamentalist with a dangerous and extreme mindset. But we are more likely to associate the term Christian fundamentalist with psalm singers and happy clappers.”

Quoting from the Old Testament in the Bible, she drew attention to passages from referring to murders, massacres and God ordering Moses to “loot from their houses all their silver and clothing”.

“And if that is not enough, the story continues as Moses … is urged to hack women and children to death, rip unborn babies from their mother’s womb and level the cities,” she told parliament. “The virgins are taken at God’s command for the pleasure of his holy warriors.”

Mr Beazley told The Australian Ms Irwin was “trying to take a stand against extremists, which is important”.

“That could have been made clearer in the speech,” he said. “It is important that we do not lose sight of the positive messages in both religious books – of respect for one another.”

Her speech drew an angry reponse from other Labor MPs although foreign affairs spokesman Kevin Rudd, a committed Christian, said he would not add to Mr Beazley’s comments.

Speaking to The Australian last night, Ms Irwin admitted her “happy clapper” gibe might offend some Christians. “I think some would find that offensive but I would encourage them to read my speech,” she said.

“Not all Christians are happy clappers but there are a few. I am a Catholic convert. But I have got questions. I have tried a number of religions. As a child, we were Seventh Day Adventists but my mother had to give that away when I was rather young because she was told she couldn’t wear make-up.”

It is not the first time Ms Irwin has sparked religious controversy. Earlier this year, following the Gaza pullout, she told parliament: “Gaza is now a Palestinian ghetto; a prison for its one million people.”

 

[Palladio]

Koran ‘no match for violent Bible’
The Australian ^ | November 29, 2005 | Samantha Maiden

Posted on 11/28/2005 12:52:12 PM PST by nickcarraway

MUSLIM extremists may use the Koran to justify their terror attacks, “but when it comes to good old-fashioned violence, the Judaeo-Christian God is hard to beat”.

NSW Labor MP Julia Irwin – considered a serial offender on religious issues by her own party – ignited a new controversy yesterday as she described devout Christians as “happy clappers” and said the Bible was more bloodthirsty than the Koran.

Attacking what she claims is a culture of fear faced by Muslims living in Australia, Ms Irwin, a Catholic convert, hit out at the violence of the Old Testament.

Her outburst sparked an immediate rebuke last night from Kim Beazley – but Ms Irwin refused to back down, arguing she was “speaking the truth”.

“Those who refer to Muslim fundamentalists may choose to quote from the Holy Koran and there are passages that might be taken to show a vengeful God,” Ms Irwin told federal parliament.

"But when it comes to good old-fashioned violence, the Judaeo-Christian God is hard to beat.

“If I was to take those verses as written, I could easily associate any Christian fundamentalist with a dangerous and extreme mindset. But we are more likely to associate the term Christian fundamentalist with psalm singers and happy clappers.”

Quoting from the Old Testament in the Bible, she drew attention to passages from referring to murders, massacres and God ordering Moses to “loot from their houses all their silver and clothing”.

“And if that is not enough, the story continues as Moses … is urged to hack women and children to death, rip unborn babies from their mother’s womb and level the cities,” she told parliament. “The virgins are taken at God’s command for the pleasure of his holy warriors.”

Mr Beazley told The Australian Ms Irwin was “trying to take a stand against extremists, which is important”.

“That could have been made clearer in the speech,” he said. “It is important that we do not lose sight of the positive messages in both religious books – of respect for one another.”

Her speech drew an angry reponse from other Labor MPs although foreign affairs spokesman Kevin Rudd, a committed Christian, said he would not add to Mr Beazley’s comments.

Speaking to The Australian last night, Ms Irwin admitted her “happy clapper” gibe might offend some Christians. “I think some would find that offensive but I would encourage them to read my speech,” she said.

“Not all Christians are happy clappers but there are a few. I am a Catholic convert. But I have got questions. I have tried a number of religions. As a child, we were Seventh Day Adventists but my mother had to give that away when I was rather young because she was told she couldn’t wear make-up.”

It is not the first time Ms Irwin has sparked religious controversy. Earlier this year, following the Gaza pullout, she told parliament: “Gaza is now a Palestinian ghetto; a prison for its one million people.”

Stop believing everything you read, especially if the evidence relies upon one very idiotic person.

If you are unhappy with the Bible, you can always go to where you won’t find one enjoying much influence: Indonesia and the Middle East.

 

[fatma]

Condemn? You are jumping to conclusions. I pity Muslims and pray for their conversion.

If Australian Muslims are better off than in the Middle East, that is because Australia is a democracy.

Sharia law and democracy are incompatible: the former must submit to the latter in the West, or go back to where it came.

not all muslims want sharia law, they support democracy and the australian way of life. they also find much of the middle eastern practises reprehensible.

 

[Palladio]

not all muslims want sharia law, they support democracy and the australian way of life. they also find much of the middle eastern practises reprehensible.

Australia is very fortunate.

That just leaves the rest of us.

Me, for instance: a Muslim colleague placidly explaining that his faith allows for wife beating.

 

[fatma]

“When the LORD your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you. And when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them. (Deutronomy 7:1-2)

“When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you… Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes (Deuteronomy 20:10-17)

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-18)

Even in the New Testament we read the following statements attributed to Jesus saying to his disciples:

“I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence. (Luke 19:26-27)

“Do not think that I have come to send peace on earth. I did not come to send peace, but a sword. I am sent to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law” (Matthew 10:34-35)

Muslims believe in all Prophets sent by Allah, and so do not misuse or misinterpret the religious texts of other faiths in order to defame them. Even in recent times, Muslims have and are facing genocidal campaigns in Bosnia, Kosova, Chechnia, Kashmir, and Palestine - but they have not questioned Judaism and Christianity. Such spirit needs to be reciprocated.

 

[fatma]

Australia is very fortunate.

That just leaves the rest of us.

Me, for instance: a Muslim colleague placidly explaining that his faith allows for wife beating.

well he’s wrong actually

 

[Palladio]

“When the LORD your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you. And when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them. (Deutronomy 7:1-2)

“When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you… Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes (Deuteronomy 20:10-17)

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-18)

Even in the New Testament we read the following statements attributed to Jesus saying to his disciples:

“I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence. (Luke 19:26-27)

“Do not think that I have come to send peace on earth. I did not come to send peace, but a sword. I am sent to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law” (Matthew 10:34-35)

Muslims believe in all Prophets sent by Allah, and so do not misuse or misinterpret the religious texts of other faiths in order to defame them. Even in recent times, Muslims have and are facing genocidal campaigns in Bosnia, Kosova, Chechnia, Kashmir, and Palestine - but they have not questioned Judaism and Christianity. Such spirit needs to be reciprocated.

Then I am very sorry to telly you that you have just misused and misinterpreted both the Old and the New Testament in order to defame Catholics and Christians.

I cannot bring you out of the depths of your ignorance about the Bible, but I can ask you never to quote it to Catholics on this website again: I do not go on Muslim websites to pick a fight, and I expect no special credit for behaving in a decent way.

You, I am sorry to say, are behaving in an indecent way that brings shame on you and can only raise doubts about Islam.

Since you are in a democratic country founded and run by Christians, perhaps in time you will come to see the error of your ways.

Meanwhile, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, I wish you all heavenly blessings.

 

[fatma]

i put that there because that is exactly what the people on this forum are doing to islam. i am a catholic BTW, not a muslim but i believe in showing muslims respect and not vilifying them. everyone on here is quoting out-of-context from the koran to vilify islam so shame on them. I cannot bring u out ofyour ignorance about islam. I tell u i know hundreds of muslims and understand the vilification in the media however u r convinced that u know what you are talking about.
salam and god forgive u for being so unfair.

 

[Palladio]

i put that there because that is exactly what the people on this forum are doing to islam. i am a catholic BTW, not a muslim but i believe in showing muslims respect and not vilifying them. everyone on here is quoting out-of-context from the koran to vilify islam so shame on them. I cannot bring u out ofyour ignorance about islam. I tell u i know hundreds of muslims and understand the vilification in the media however u r convinced that u know what you are talking about.
salam and god forgive u for being so unfair.

Your profile says that you are a Catholic Muslim.

You deny what a Muslim says about wife beating.

You then claim you are a Catholic.

I am the Queen of Romania.

God knows who of us needs forgiveness.

And who good manners.