What Muslims are taught in their mosques - unbiased

[Montalban]

and so because the IRA were catholics, all catholics are terrorists? and how obscene, comparing islam to the nazis, how low will u go? u wouldn’t be from cronulla would u?

The IRA were Marxists. But you miss the point of the analogy. The point is you argue that you can’t judge Islam by the exceptions of Moslems within it. Therefore you can’t judge Nazism (or any other ideology) also, because of the exceptions.

So your apology for Islam does not make sense.

the biggest islamic country is indonesia actually,

So what? Let’s just ask some Christians on Ambon how they fare.

much of what u claim is islam is cultural,

Really? So Moslems claim that what they believe is not from their god, but from culture?

genital mutilation is a cultural practise that can be found amongst jewish and christian communities in northern africa,

So what? Muhammed said that when you cut, don’t do it too severely. Show me the Christian teaching that supports it.

stop believing everything u read.

Thanks for that gem. I’m sure he never thought of it before!

none of things u mention are characteristic of australian muslims.

So when the Mufti of Australia’s biggest mosque compared women to meat, who was he representing?

maybe u need to understand cultural differences and influences before condemning a 5th of the world’s population

Maybe you need to realise the illogical apology you’re proposing.

 

[Montalban]

well he’s wrong actually

So you say, but you’ve offered only emotive appeals, insults and illogical condemnations of ‘judging’ as retorts. Even the fact you call yourself a “Catholic Muslim” is novel.

Muhammed applauded the execution of people. He encouraged people to tell untruths.

Let’s look at what Muslims believe Muhammed said, shall we…?

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

Allah’s Apostle said, “Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,” Muhammad bin Maslama said,** "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, “You may say it.” T**hen Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, “That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you.” On that, Kab said, “By Allah, you will get tired of him!” Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food.” (Some difference between narrators about a camel load or two.) Kab said, “Yes, (I will lend you), but you should mortgage something to me.” Muhammad bin Mas-lama and his companion said, “What do you want?” Ka’b replied, “Mortgage your women to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the 'Arabs?” Ka’b said, “Then mortgage your sons to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people’s saying that so-and-so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you.” Muhammad bin Maslama and his companion promised Kab that Muhammad would return to him. He came to Kab at night along with Kab’s foster brother, Abu Na’ila. Kab invited them to come into his fort, and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, “Where are you going at this time?” Kab replied, “None but Muhammad bin Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Na’ila have come.” His wife said, “I hear a voice as if dropping blood is from him, Ka’b said. “They are none but my brother Muhammad bin Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed.” Muhammad bin Maslama went with two men. (Some narrators mention the men as 'Abu bin Jabr. Al Harith bin Aus and Abbad bin Bishr). So Muhammad bin Maslama went in together with two men, and sail to them, “When Ka’b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strip him. I will let you smell his head.” Kab bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Muhammad bin Maslama said. " have never smelt a better scent than this. Ka’b replied. “I have got the best 'Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume.” Muhammad bin Maslama requested Ka’b “Will you allow me to smell your head?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” Muhammad smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka’b again, “Will you let me (smell your head)?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), “Get at him!” So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf.”
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.369

 

[Montalban]

Your profile says that you are a Catholic Muslim.

It’s odd that Moslems offer such confused argument, it was only a matter of time before the confusion would spread

 

[Palladio]

It’s odd that Moslems offer such confused argument, it was only a matter of time before the confusion would spread

Yes, it is sad to see such backwardness in action, and I have seen it everywhere I’ve looked: in the Koran, in the words of Muslims, in the political situation in the Middle East and Indonesia. I came to this site to avoid it, in fact, but the internet is a big public square and I guess it falls to some of us to keep the light shing bright on it.

I pray that Fatma is a child.

 

[Montalban]

Yes, it is sad to see such backwardness in action, and I have seen it everywhere I’ve looked: in the Koran, in the words of Muslims, in the political situation in the Middle East and Indonesia. I came to this site to avoid it, in fact, but the internet is a big public square and I guess it falls to some of us to keep the light shing bright on it.

I pray that Fatma is a child.

It seems to be a universal encounter with Moslems. I’ve seen the Koran put forward as truth, based on its claims about itself.

There’s a concurrent thread by which we see an Islamic ‘challenge’ to find verses like the Koran; based on the subjective *discernment *of Moslem judges there are none to be found - hardly that amazing.

 

[Palladio]

It seems to be a universal encounter with Moslems. I’ve seen the Koran put forward as truth, based on its claims about itself.

There’s a concurrent thread by which we see an Islamic ‘challenge’ to find verses like the Koran; based on the subjective *discernment *of Moslem judges there are none to be found - hardly that amazing.

It’s a clash of civilizations: in the States, they are a micro-minority, so we don’t hear much from or about them.

That may be changing.

God bless.

 

[Montalban]

It’s a clash of civilizations: in the States, they are a micro-minority, so we don’t hear much from or about them.

That may be changing.

God bless.

nfortunately the anti-Christ is at work, gaing allies for Islam, such as many on the far left.

I have a friend who’s a gay, atheist, communist (yes some Communists are still around) who is absolutely in favour of Islam - as he sees it as the victim of western imperialist aggression.

He is not alone in this feeling.

 

[Palladio]

Yes, the left here represents nothing but lunacy, including warm and fuzzy attitudes toward Islam. It abandoned labor.

That, it now strikes me, is its downfall, because to say labor was always to say the family.

Without labor, and without enduring values (they are all cultural relativists and clown in big parades with multi-culturalism), the left goes on rants and rampages against those who simply wish this country to support the family, from conception until natural death.

I’m conservative, but only because philosophically and practically it’s what my conscience leads me to.

But conservatives in the political sense (Republicans especially)are losing moral high ground here for their support of money over culture, religion, and ethics.

 

[LDNCatholic]

Fatma is a Catholic, she said she wrote ‘‘catholic Muslim’’ as a joke in reference to the Episcopalian minister who also worships at a mosque as a Muslim.

 

[Palladio]

Fatma is a Catholic, she said she wrote ‘‘catholic Muslim’’ as a joke in reference to the Episcopalian minister who also worships at a mosque as a Muslim.

I guess that’s the problem with the internet: people can say things they should not with the greatest of ease.

 

[Booklover]

Mirdath’s argument was not a logical fallacy. If Osama bin Laden were to claim that his behavior was correct because some Christians had done this sort of thing in the past, that would be the tu quoque fallacy. Obviously Mirdath was not saying this. His argument was rather a form of reductio ad absurdum.

Booklover argued as follows:

1. Muslims claim that their religion is a religion of peace
2. But some Muslims (enough to appear regularly on the news) act in a way that contradicts this
3. Therefore Islam is not a religion of peace.

From this one can generate the following generalization:

If a significant number of the members of any religion act in a way that contradicts moral principle X, then moral principle X is not characteristic of that religion.

Now we test this generalization (and hence Booklover’s argument) by applying it to Christianity:

1. Christianity claims to be a religion of love
2. A significant number of Christians (enough to appear regularly in the news) act in an unloving manner
3. Therefore, Christianity is not a religion of love

Mirdath’s argument rests on the assumption that Booklover would agree that proposition 3 is absurd. Of course if Booklover is willing to admit that Christianity is not a religion of love, *then *Mirdath’s argument fails.

Myself, I think that any characterization of a religion as a “religion of this” or “religion of that” is pointless, at least for the purposes of outsiders to the religion.

Edwin

This is nonsense! You’re using the multiculturalist argument that all religions are the same and teach the same things.

The way to evaluate whether a belief system is good or bad is to read the foundational books, the manuscripts that define the creed…the scripture that was carefully written to explain the norms and the intent of those who established it.

If I was a communist and declared that Nazism was bad, I can see your point, but otherwise your argument is baseless.

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

You are shifting the ground. You said originally that Muslims are in the news committing atrocities, and therefore Islam can’t be a religion of peace. Now you are making a completely different comparison.

You will get no argument out of me on the proposition that the character and teaching of Christ are immeasurably superior to that of Muhammad!

Edwin

Really!

Vickie

 

[LDNCatholic]

I guess that’s the problem with the internet: people can say things they should not with the greatest of ease.

Tell me about it

 

[Booklover]

Koran ‘no match for violent Bible’
The Australian ^ | November 29, 2005 | Samantha Maiden

Posted on 11/28/2005 12:52:12 PM PST by nickcarraway

MUSLIM extremists may use the Koran to justify their terror attacks, “but when it comes to good old-fashioned violence, the Judaeo-Christian God is hard to beat”.

NSW Labor MP Julia Irwin – considered a serial offender on religious issues by her own party – ignited a new controversy yesterday as she described devout Christians as “happy clappers” and said the Bible was more bloodthirsty than the Koran.

Attacking what she claims is a culture of fear faced by Muslims living in Australia, Ms Irwin, a Catholic convert, hit out at the violence of the Old Testament.

Her outburst sparked an immediate rebuke last night from Kim Beazley – but Ms Irwin refused to back down, arguing she was “speaking the truth”.

“Those who refer to Muslim fundamentalists may choose to quote from the Holy Koran and there are passages that might be taken to show a vengeful God,” Ms Irwin told federal parliament.

"But when it comes to good old-fashioned violence, the Judaeo-Christian God is hard to beat.

“If I was to take those verses as written, I could easily associate any Christian fundamentalist with a dangerous and extreme mindset. But we are more likely to associate the term Christian fundamentalist with psalm singers and happy clappers.”

Quoting from the Old Testament in the Bible, she drew attention to passages from referring to murders, massacres and God ordering Moses to “loot from their houses all their silver and clothing”.

“And if that is not enough, the story continues as Moses … is urged to hack women and children to death, rip unborn babies from their mother’s womb and level the cities,” she told parliament. “The virgins are taken at God’s command for the pleasure of his holy warriors.”

Mr Beazley told The Australian Ms Irwin was “trying to take a stand against extremists, which is important”.

“That could have been made clearer in the speech,” he said. “It is important that we do not lose sight of the positive messages in both religious books – of respect for one another.”

Her speech drew an angry reponse from other Labor MPs although foreign affairs spokesman Kevin Rudd, a committed Christian, said he would not add to Mr Beazley’s comments.

Speaking to The Australian last night, Ms Irwin admitted her “happy clapper” gibe might offend some Christians. “I think some would find that offensive but I would encourage them to read my speech,” she said.

“Not all Christians are happy clappers but there are a few. I am a Catholic convert. But I have got questions. I have tried a number of religions. As a child, we were Seventh Day Adventists but my mother had to give that away when I was rather young because she was told she couldn’t wear make-up.”

It is not the first time Ms Irwin has sparked religious controversy. Earlier this year, following the Gaza pullout, she told parliament: “Gaza is now a Palestinian ghetto; a prison for its one million people.”

If you’re a “Catholic” I’ll eat my hat! I suspect you’re really a Muslim practicing taqqiya!

Vickie

 

[TobyLue]

Unfortunately I have to disagree.

Originally Posted by Booklover:
Muslims keep telling us that Islam is a religion of “peace” but every day you hear of some new atrocity commited by Muslims.

Mirdath replied:
Christians keep telling us that Christianity is a religion of ‘love’ but every day you hear of Christians being hateful. What’s your point?

That is exactly a tu quoque.

When was the last time a priest, or Bishop, from the pulpit, urge Catholics or Christians go to a kill somebody and caused worldwide riots, because that somebody wrote a book or a novel (and there are many) that insulted Jesus Christ?

 

[Booklover]

Stop believing everything you read, especially if the evidence relies upon one very idiotic person.

If you are unhappy with the Bible, you can always go to where you won’t find one enjoying much influence: Indonesia and the Middle East.

How about Saudi Arabia, no Bibles or Christianity allowed there!

Vickie

 

[Palladio]

How about Saudi Arabia, no Bibles or Christianity allowed there!

Vickie

Is anybody aware of what the Vatican is up to, while I recall the Holy Father having to apologize about something he’s said regarding Islam?

One link from one of this site’s experts takes us to a letter from the 1960s from PVI: sure, I am far from condemning all Muslims: that’s not the question; also, I don’t hate them.

To me, the question is whether there is reasonable evidence to consider Islam as it is practiced and interpreted in the ME and elsewhere a threat a. to liberal democracy and b. Catholicism.

 

[Booklover]

Is anybody aware of what the Vatican is up to, while I recall the Holy Father having to apologize about something he’s said regarding Islam?

One link from one of this site’s experts takes us to a letter from the 1960s from PVI: sure, I am far from condemning all Muslims: that’s not the question; also, I don’t hate them.

To me, the question is whether there is reasonable evidence to consider Islam as it is practiced and interpreted in the ME and elsewhere a threat a. to liberal democracy and b. Catholicism.

It is most definitely a threat! As ex-Muslim Amil Imani puts it:

‘Islam is a religion of peace and the great majority of Muslims are not party to any plans and actions of the radicals’- so claim academic pundits, leftist journalists, and hired Islamic apologists. The incantation of these “authorities” is the lullaby that puts the people into a sleep of complacency.

Complacency and appeasement on the part of the free world and those well-meaning, non-practicing Muslims, can only serve Islam. There is no chance for co-existence with Islam. All one needs to know is to see what is happening in Islamic countries. That is exactly what is in store for the presently free people of the world if Islam is not held in check."

Of course, the defenders of Islam on this forum will claim that because he is an ex-Muslim his statements are not acceptable.

Vickie

 

[jedi]

booklover is correct…

please read the book by Ibn Warraq… very inspired book…

islam is so sensitive in term of all the things, the faceless of their god… … the world is afraid of islam, maybe that’s their strategy.

by the way who want to continue van gough’s “submission” at holland…

 

[jedi]

i think fatma is a islam now … may he’s a catholic before.

i don’t know where fatma come from, for sure he doesn’t know the unbalanced moslem country. Fatma should ask him self why islam country so hard to build churches??? why no churches in Saudi. religion police in Saudi is so hard working in catching non-moslem.
but u can easily see in big big mosque in USA or even Italy which have the biggest mosque in euro. maybe that’s the failure of E.U. or E.U afraid of jihad army. or suicide killer…that’s unbalance moslem country… Fatma if you don’t mind please tell your moslem friend to allow churches in moslem country… can you do that please. Fatma
can you please promote churches in moslem country.