What must I do to be saved?

[MariaG]

I’m sorry if I implied that Catholics believe that those “things” are necesssary for salvation. I know that is not what C teaches and that wasn’t my point.

No, I personally did not think you thought they were necessary, just that you thought the were not needed. But thanks for clarifying These forums are wonderful, but there are inherent limitations like being unable to read “tone” or have the benefit of body language to help our communications.

My point, is that these things distract. They are “extras” that take our mind away from the centrality of the Gospel. I know, they are meant to help, but what’s so hard about simply knowing through one’s intellect & heart what Christ has done.

Why these other things?

Mary / Rosary - Marian apparitions tell us to say the rosary. Fatima, promises salvation by devotion to her immaculate heart. Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix of All Graces… These things fly in the face of the central message of the Gospel… They distract. (I don’t have a problem with “Mother of God”).

The longer a church is around, the more that gets defined. Respectfully, these “extras” do not fly in the face or contradict the central message but harmonize and complete it.

I’ve done the scripture search. I’ve read John Salza, Keating and others. I see where Catholics can support their doctrines with scripture. But why is their interpretation any better than anyone elses?

But why is our interpretation any less better than anyone else’s?

Scripture warns us of false teachers who will come along teaching false doctrines.

Here is an example: Even Luther believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary (again, this relates to the divine nature of Christ and is the reason it is important). Today, many non-Catholics Christians deny this teaching about Mary’s perpetual virginity. Should we believe them or stick with the interpretation that even the reformers had about Mary?

We can look at the writings of the Early Church and the Catholic interpretation of scripture is consistent with the Early Church.

That is why our interpretation is better than others. We have scripture, history and early Church writings that support our view.

I know Catholics do not deny this, but Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. It’s His way, it’s His truth and life is in Him.
Indeed the church may be the pillar and foundation of truth. But which church? You say Catholic. Others disagree that it is the CC.

So where are we to turn, but to Christ

Which Church? Which Church can historically support that they have been here since the time of the apostles? Who has the writings to prove it? The Catholic Church.

History and scripture support the Catholic Church. Turning to the Catholic Church IS turning to Christ

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[djrakowski]

I’m sorry if I implied that Catholics believe that those “things” are necesssary for salvation. I know that is not what C teaches and that wasn’t my point.

I was the one guilty of misreading, and I hope you will accept my apology

 

[gracelife]

I thank you too for your charity.

Please know, I am not trying to be difficult. And thank you for going through this with me. I do need help with another “issue” as well, but will start another thread for it.

If you believe these doctrines can be supported with scripture, then why do you consider them ‘extras?’

I see how they can be supported by scripture, just as a Calvinist or Lutheran or Baptist can see how their doctrines which may oppose Catholic doctrine in some instances can be supported by scripture. Each has doctrines, each has scriptures to back up what they believe.

It seems that you have a few more misconceptions, and I’ll try to address them here:

1. Mary/Rosary/apparitions - Catholics aren’t bound to believe anything contained in private revelations, and we’re not bound to believe anything about Mary that hasn’t been defined as doctrine or dogma. Therefore, you’re free to reject the entire message of Fatima if you so choose, and you’re not required to devote yourself to the Sacred Heart of Jesus or Immaculate Heart of Mary (though I have no idea why anyone would have a problem with such devotions). The theological ideas of co-redemptrix and mediatrix are not binding on Catholics, even if there are some who would like it that way. And, promises of salvation have to be understood in the full context of the apparitions at Fatima, and I’m far from an expert on that subject. But, I do know that Mary isn’t promising anything the Lord hasn’t given her to promise, and she isn’t promising that *she *will save anyone, either.

But they still distract from the Atoning Sacrifice of Christ. The purpose for which He came.

1. If Christ established a church and placed Peter in charge of it, giving him the power to bind and loose (Matthew 16:18-19, Matthew 18:18), then gave instructions on how to pass that authority to other men by the laying on of hands (1 Timothy 4:14, 5:22; 2 Timothy 1:6), then ought we not consider submitting ourselves to that authority?

If, Christ did so, yes.
That is the Catholic interpretation of those scriptures. We know others understand those scriptures differently.

Indeed, to whom do we turn? I’ll quote St. Peter: “But Simon Peter answered Him, ‘Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.’” (John 6:68). Indeed he does, and we trust the authority of the Church he founded on St. Peter.

Catholics trust that it was on Peter. Other do not.

If you do not trust the Church to bind and loose, and do not trust it as the pillar and foundation of truth, to whom do you turn when disputes come up from within the body of Christ?

Indeed, to whom to turn?
With all the competing interpretations of scripture, who’s to say who’s got it right? I’d love to know the answer to that question. I do not, so all I can do is rest in Christ.

How does one get around, everyone simply has their interpretation of scripture, Catholics included?

 

[gracelife]

I was the one guilty of misreading, and I hope you will accept my apology

No apology needed Dan. Bless you.

 

[gracelife]

We can look at the writings of the Early Church and the Catholic interpretation of scripture is consistent with the Early Church.

That is why our interpretation is better than others. We have scripture, history and early Church writings that support our view.

Got it Maria.
I think we were posting about the same time, thus my above post with related questions to the above answer.

I see where you are coming from, but how come I just can’t “buy” it? kwim?

 

[DeFide]

How does one get around, everyone simply has their interpretation of scripture, Catholics included?

It would seem that you’re beginning to see the irreconcilable problem in “going by the scripture alone”.

You’ve stumbled across reason #19 to reject the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura:

geocities.com/thecatholicconvert/solascriptura21.html

 

[mrs_abbott]

Got it Maria.
I think we were posting about the same time, thus my above post with related questions to the above answer.

I see where you are coming from, but how come I just can’t “buy” it? kwim?

Because you don’t truly believe it yet. Just keep reading scripture and keep praying.

 

[Philthy]

Repent, Believe and be baptized.

for fuller answer including scripture see here from James Akin.

Hi Maria! Ya beat me to it!

 

[mrs_abbott]

On a side note, Dan and Maria have been very gracious in explaining Catholic teachings through scripture to those of us who just “couldn’t see it”. You guys are great! We’d be lost without you!!!

 

[gracelife]

Okay, so I think we’ve established we’re on the same page as far as what I must do to be saved.

What must one believe to be Catholic?
A checklist would be great.

NEW thread for that???

 

[djrakowski]

I thank you too for your charity.

Please know, I am not trying to be difficult. And thank you for going through this with me. I do need help with another “issue” as well, but will start another thread for it.

You’re welcome, and of course, nobody here thinks you’re being difficult. You have questions that deserve answers, and that’s why were here!

I see how they can be supported by scripture, just as a Calvinist or Lutheran or Baptist can see how their doctrines which may oppose Catholic doctrine in some instances can be supported by scripture. Each has doctrines, each has scriptures to back up what they believe.

But the problem is that those other churches don’t have the historical continuity, all the way backto the apostles who were taught by Jesus himself, that the Catholic Church does. We have more than the witness of the Bible (which does not reveal all that Christ did and said - see John 20:30 and 21:25). The Catholic Church relies upon the whole counsel of God, not just that which was committed to writing. Recall the words of St. Paul in his second letter to the Thessalonians (2:15): “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.” In other words, there’s more to truth than what’s written in the Bible. Truth subsists in the person of Jesus Christ, not simply the words that the Holy Spirit inspired to be written on paper.

In addition, it was the Catholic Church who, over the centuries, took care to translate, preserve, and canonize the various works of early Christian literature into what we now know as the Bible. If the Catholic Church is to be trusted in the process of canonizing the Bible, then why is it not to be trusted in interpreting it?

But they still distract from the Atoning Sacrifice of Christ. The purpose for which He came.

The Catholic Church does not teach or permit anything that distracts from the central message of Christ’s atoning sacrifice. This may be the impression one gets when looking in through the windows from the outside, missing the full context of the lived experience of the Church. Not only that, but as MariaG mentioned in her post, the proto-Reformers, Luther and Calvin, believed as the Catholic Church believes about Mary, and I recall reading somewhere that Luther himself had quite a strong devotion to Mary. Those two gentlemen were no friends of the Catholic Church, and yet, did not reject her teachings on these points. What reason does anyone have for doubting what was taught for 1500 years of Church history prior to the Reformation?

That is the Catholic interpretation of those scriptures. We know others understand those scriptures differently.

The Catholic interpretation of scriptures was the only one held up 'til the time of the Reformation. The burden of proof is on those who chose to deviate from 1500 years of consisten teaching from the Catholic Church.

Catholics trust that it was on Peter. Other do not.

But only the Catholic Church holds to the understanding of the Christians who lived in the earliest period of Church history.

Indeed, to whom to turn?
With all the competing interpretations of scripture, who’s to say who’s got it right? I’d love to know the answer to that question. I do not, so all I can do is rest in Christ.

How does one get around, everyone simply has their interpretation of scripture, Catholics included?

The Catholic Church has more than the words of sacred scripture - it has the promise that it will be guided into all truth (John 16:18), and the historical witness of the lived experience of Church history. Those who sprung out of the Reformation live a truncated version of salvation history, and thus miss the fullness of the gospel that is offered only in the Catholic Church. The burden of proof is on those who chose to deviate, not those who’ve stayed firm from the beginning.

In saying this, I realize that my statements could be read as harsh and judgmental, but nothing could be further from the truth. Truth claims are by their very nature inflammatory and provocative. But, none of this is a judgment on any individual who holds to theologies different from those taught by the Catholic Church.

 

[MariaG]

I thank you too for your charity.

Please know, I am not trying to be difficult. And thank you for going through this with me. I do need help with another “issue” as well, but will start another thread for it.

I know you addressed this to Dan, but I wanted to let you know we can see you are not “trying” to be difficult. You are being sincere and have sincere problems with believing the Catholic Church teaches the truth.

I see how they can be supported by scripture, just as a Calvinist or Lutheran or Baptist can see how their doctrines which may oppose Catholic doctrine in some instances can be supported by scripture. Each has doctrines, each has scriptures to back up what they believe.

Again, which Church came along? Scripture warns us that there will be those who twist scripture for their own gain.

But they still distract from the Atoning Sacrifice of Christ. The purpose for which He came.

You will have to be more specific. I do not agree with you that they distract and you would have to specifically name what and why you feel they do.

If, Christ did so, yes.
That is the Catholic interpretation of those scriptures. We know others understand those scriptures differently.

Catholics trust that it was on Peter. Other do not.

Again, which Church came along? Once a Protestant looks at history the only question should be Orthodox or Catholic

Indeed, to whom to turn?
With all the competing interpretations of scripture, who’s to say who’s got it right? I’d love to know the answer to that question. I do not, so all I can do is rest in Christ.

How does one get around, everyone simply has their interpretation of scripture, Catholics included

I do understand exactly where you are coming from. In the Protestant Churches I used to attend, it disturbed me that there was so much conflicting interpretation among the different denominations. Even among things that you and I agree are necessary others do not. OSAS or lose one’s salvation? Baptism necessary or not? On and on the disagreements continued.

I had to rest my trust completely in Christ and the leading of the Holy Spirit. I would open my Bible, and pray that I would be led to all truth.

Eventually, this prayer led me to the certainty of the Claims of the Catholic Church being true.

Scripture does tell us that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Which one was only answered by the Catholic CHurch.

Scripture does tell us to hold fast to tradition whether oral or by letter. The Catholic Church (and Orthodox) are the only ones who claim that they HAVE that Sacred Oral Tradition.

Gotta go,

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[djrakowski]

It would seem that you’re beginning to see the irreconcilable problem in “going by the scripture alone”. %between%

Heh… you beat me to it. I was headed in that direction.

Thanks for posting that link, BTW!

 

[gracelife]

It would seem that you’re beginning to see the irreconcilable problem in “going by the scripture alone”.

You’ve stumbled across reason #19 to reject the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura:

geocities.com/thecatholicconvert/solascriptura21.html

sigh.
I’ve seen this years ago. It’s years of torture in a search for the truth and wanting to believe the Catholic view. Still, all the “extras” bug the be-jeepers out of me and keep me from converting.

All I can do now is rest in Christ and the central message of the gospel. Lord to whom shall I turn, you have the words of eternal life.

Why isn’t believing in the basics of salvation enough?

 

[MariaG]

Got it Maria.
I think we were posting about the same time, thus my above post with related questions to the above answer.

I see where you are coming from, but how come I just can’t “buy” it? kwim?

It has not yet been revealed to you. I did not “buy it” until the Holy Spirit revealed it to me.

I ironically claim to be Catholic by scripture alone and the leading of the Holy Spirit

Pray about it, read your bible. Buy a catechism or look at one online and look up what the Catholic Church says it believes. Look up the scripture that it cites for these beliefs.

You seem to be honestly seeking. God will answer your prayer if you ask Him to lead you to all truth.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

ps yeah I can see we have been cross posting Another limitation of these forums.

But it all works out with patience and understanding.

 

[djrakowski]

On a side note, Dan and Maria have been very gracious in explaining Catholic teachings through scripture to those of us who just “couldn’t see it”. You guys are great! We’d be lost without you!!!

All for the greater glory of God :bowdown2:

 

[djrakowski]

sigh.
I’ve seen this years ago. It’s years of torture in a search for the truth and wanting to believe the Catholic view. Still, all the “extras” bug the be-jeepers out of me and keep me from converting.

All I can do now is rest in Christ and the central message of the gospel. Lord to whom shall I turn, you have the words of eternal life.

Why isn’t believing in the basics of salvation enough?

Believing in the basics of salvation means, in part, submitting to Christ. If he started a church, and promised to lead it into all truth, then one must belong to that church.

If you believe that the church has the power to bind and loose, to forgive or retain sins (John 20:23), and that it is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Timothy 3:15), then it stands to reason that you ought to find out which church.

 

[MariaG]

sigh.
I’ve seen this years ago. It’s years of torture in a search for the truth and wanting to believe the Catholic view. Still, all the “extras” bug the be-jeepers out of me and keep me from converting.

All I can do now is rest in Christ and the central message of the gospel. Lord to whom shall I turn, you have the words of eternal life.

Why isn’t believing in the basics of salvation enough?

Because that obviously is not where God has led you.

Clearly He has been working with you on this issue for awhile.

I remember when I “made the jump”. I still had questions, about the “extras” but God had made it clear to me where He wanted me. I trusted in Christ. When I first gave my life over to Him, did I require Him to anwer all my questions before I gave my trust in Him? No. Why was I asking for all my question to be answered when it was clear where He wished me to go now?

So I “jumped”. And each and every question has been answered. I almost cried when I read John 20:21-23. Confession, right there instituted by Christ. Sacred Tradition in Thesselonians. Over and over, the Holy Spirit answered my lingering questions because I trusted in Him.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[djrakowski]

It has not yet been revealed to you. I did not “buy it” until the Holy Spirit revealed it to me.

I ironically claim to be Catholic by scripture alone and the leading of the Holy Spirit

Funny how that worked for us, eh? We were carefully searching the scriptures for truth in line with the belief in sola scriptura, and in doing so, we were led out of churches that taught sola scriptura! I love the irony in that!

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Hello Gracelife,

You seem to keep hitting on the simplicity of the Gospel and that some of the Catholic devotions subtract or interfer with this simplicity. I know for me and my conversion to not just Catholicism but to Christianity in general there was a lot that was not simple. I had a great deal of difficutly with the Divinity of Christ. How could He be God and Man at the same time? The Trinity still to this day I would say is anything but simple. Also how could a virgin give birth? These are just a few instances that were, for me at least, anything but simple on my journey. So if I took to the idea of the simplicity of the Gospel should I have not accepted these doctrines? Also simplicity is highly subjective, what is deemed simple to you, may not be simple to me or anyone else. Just a thought.

In regards to specific Catholic practices, mainly Marian devotions, I hear a lot from our non-Catholic brothers and sisters that they would subtract or hinder our devotion to Christ, but this isnt really up to them to decide. I do pray the Rosary and also I have a deep devotion to Mary, but I don’t feel it hinders in any way my devotion to Jesus Christ.

Just my :twocents: which by the way is free of charge

God Bless