What must we do to get the Holy Spirit's gifts?

[thistle]

To limit the conversation in this way, is not how the Church teaches. The Church teaches principles of thinking and evaluating rather than commenting on every subject. The Church expects us to have the maturity to learn those principles and to apply them. We do this with our children since we cannot teach them everything. To insist the Church specifically mention the topic or else all the reasoning by those experienced in the subject cannot be trusted is like the Protestant approach to the Bible. We must learn the principles, to which I have provides the Vatican documents, and the applications by two sources, plus myself (with 30 years experience in deliverance and a former New Ager and meditator).

Here is another article that summarizes the Vatican document on meditation and proves my point about “principles.”

But, we are are to go this way, then please provide direct quotes from more than one source, and especially from Holy Mother Church that Centering Prayer is Christian and harmless.

I agree with your comments.

 

[Robert_Sock]

To limit the conversation in this way, is not how the Church teaches. The Church teaches principles of thinking and evaluating rather than commenting on every subject. The Church expects us to have the maturity to learn those principles and to apply them. We do this with our children since we cannot teach them everything. To insist the Church specifically mention the topic or else all the reasoning by those experienced in the subject cannot be trusted is like the Protestant approach to the Bible. We must learn the principles, to which I have provides the Vatican documents, and the applications by two sources, plus myself (with 30 years experience in deliverance and a former New Ager and meditator).

Here is another article that summarizes the Vatican document on meditation and proves my point about “principles.”

But, we are are to go this way, then please provide direct quotes from more than one source, and especially from Holy Mother Church that Centering Prayer is Christian and harmless.

The Church is expected to take a stand on things that are clearly harmful to Catholics, as it does in our becoming involved with the Masons. Centering Prayer is certainly practiced by many lay Catholics and those in religious orders. If it was truly harmful, I’m sure the Church would take a stand. I see Centering Prayer as being perfectly acceptable for Catholics, but those who believe otherwise are free to forgo it. To declare yourself a Church authority in implying that it’s somehow intrinsically evil is, I’m afraid, a sign of grandiosity.

 

[BroIgnatius]

The Church is expected to take a stand on things that are clearly harmful to Catholics, as it does in our becoming involved with the Masons. Centering Prayer is certainly practiced by many lay Catholics and those in religious orders. If it was truly harmful, I’m sure the Church would take a stand. I see Centering Prayer as being perfectly acceptable for Catholics, but those who believe otherwise are free to forgo it. To declare yourself a Church authority in implying that it’s somehow intrinsically evil is, I’m afraid, a sign of grandiosity.

The Church has taken a stand. She has said what Catholics should not do. It does not have to specifically mention Centering Prayer simply because you think she should. Any mature individual does not need to have it spelled out letter-by-letter. Again, that is a trait of fundamentalist Protestants. We are not Protestants. Catholicism is a mature faith and it is expected that the Faithful will be mature. As St. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13:11, "When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways."

Frankly, I doubt you have read the documents I posted. If nothing else, at least read this one.

I realize that most Catholics are not mature, which is largely the fault of priests and bishops failing to properly catechize. But, that is no excuse. Each of us is bound to find out for ourselves even when, especially when our sacred pastors fail us in this regard.

Grandiosity is to presume you know better than the Church and thus to ignore the clear teachings about this sort of thing because ego will not allow one to accept it.

I do not pretend to be a Church authority, but I have a duty, according to Canon Law 212.3 to express views up to my level of competency. Here, however, I have not relied upon myself, but upon the Vatican itself in posting the documents I posted, and the writings of others. You have not proven your point, but to merely say, "The Church oughta… and hasn’t to my liking, so I will do it anyway."

 

[mikekle]

Would anyone consider that one saint that was able to fly, to be a gift from the HS? I think it was Cupertino, but not 100% sure. Many people saw him doing this, inside the church and outside, I believe they said he appeared to be in ecstasy while flying around. But this was centuries ago, its strange we do not see anyone receiving gifts like this in modern times.

Id be curious to learn what his prayer life was like beforehand, and what he did to earn such a gift.

 

[Robert_Sock]

The Church has taken a stand. She has said what Catholics should not do. It does not have to specifically mention Centering Prayer simply because you think she should. Any mature individual does not need to have it spelled out letter-by-letter. Again, that is a trait of fundamentalist Protestants. We are not Protestants. Catholicism is a mature faith and it is expected that the Faithful will be mature. As St. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13:11, "When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways."

Frankly, I doubt you have read the documents I posted. If nothing else, at least read this one.

I realize that most Catholics are not mature, which is largely the fault of priests and bishops failing to properly catechize. But, that is no excuse. Each of us is bound to find out for ourselves even when, especially when our sacred pastors fail us in this regard.

Grandiosity is to presume you know better than the Church and thus to ignore the clear teachings about this sort of thing because ego will not allow one to accept it.

I do not pretend to be a Church authority, but I have a duty, according to Canon Law 212.3 to express views up to my level of competency. Here, however, I have not relied upon myself, but upon the Vatican itself in posting the documents I posted, and the writings of others. You have not proven your point, but to merely say, "The Church oughta… and hasn’t to my liking, so I will do it anyway."

I guess there is little use of arguing back and forth, but all I can say is that it brings me closer to God. It tunes out all the thoughts that clutter the mind and provides added space for God to speak to us. This is not in the Centering Prayer guidelines, but deep in the back of my mind I keep a simple mental prayer like: "‘And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength’ while at the same time minimizing the “self.” The results are that I grow closer to God in this silence while minimizing the things that usually occupy my mind. It enables me to better hear what God wants from me and better cope with the world around me after the prayer. If it works, why should I refuse it?

Could it be that it really does bring some people closer to God? Why not let each person decide for themselves whether or not to use this method of prayer?

 

[DebChris]

Would anyone consider that one saint that was able to fly, to be a gift from the HS? I think it was Cupertino, but not 100% sure. Many people saw him doing this, inside the church and outside, I believe they said he appeared to be in ecstasy while flying around. But this was centuries ago, its strange we do not see anyone receiving gifts like this in modern times.

Id be curious to learn what his prayer life was like beforehand, and what he did to earn such a gift.

St. Joseph of Cupertino was seen as a simpleton. His mother talked the local friars into taking him. The local bishop elevated him to the priesthood because of his ability to explain the Trinity is simplistic terms. In other words, while not intellectual, he understood Christ’s teachings. He would levitate while praying.

The Catholic Church is a universal Church with a long history of mystic saints. I learned that contemplative prayer is the highest form of prayer, and have difficulty when somebody tries to say otherwise. Are they thinking only in Western terms?
Prayer is communication. Communication is not simply one way. Are we open to hearing God’s response? Am I willing to merely sit in His presence, as Mary did at Martha’s house? Am I willing to be embraced by the Divine? Two lovers don’t necessarily have to speak when they are in the presence of each other.
Scripture itself tells us how to discern between a spirit that comes from God, and one that does not. Indeed, the Romans used that method to determine if a person was a Christian. Christians could not curse God.
What I learned about contemplative prayer, what some call centering prayer, I learned within the Catholic Catholic Church. I learned the Jesus Prayer from the Abbot from Pecos as a way leading to contemplation.
Those outside the Church call contemplation, meditation. As Catholics, meditation still involves thought and visualization. We meditate upon the mysteries of the rosary. We bring to mind a scene within scripture while we are reading. Contemplation takes us beyond thought. As such it is a gift. Should we refuse a gift from our Lover?

God will never command anyone to sin. Discernment is always a part of prayer. If there is any discrepancy between what a visionary hears, what the Church teaches, and scripture, then it is not from God. It can be passed off as imagination, or Satan can be told to “Get lost.”
He who is in us is greater than he who is in the world.

 

[mikekle]

St. Joseph of Cupertino was seen as a simpleton. His mother talked the local friars into taking him. The local bishop elevated him to the priesthood because of his ability to explain the Trinity is simplistic terms. In other words, while not intellectual, he understood Christ’s teachings. He would levitate while praying.

.

From all the things I have read on him, he was actually able to fly not just levitate and not only during prayer. He was seen numerous times by numerous people flying outside and inside the church, from the descriptions, usually anywhere between 5ft and 30ft off the ground.

So its interesting to me, he was the only person that I know of, that was given such an incredible gift, in all the years before and after.

 

[BroIgnatius]

Why not let each person decide for themselves whether or not to use this method of prayer?

Because not all prayer is Christian. Not all prayer is safe. We need to stay close to the Church, stay within the Catholic tradition of prayer.

Why the resistance to use a traditional form of contemplative prayer that has been vetted for 1600 years and approved by the Church? Do you think the traditional forms are not good enough? What are you afraid of?

Have you even read these documents? I suspect not. Why are you so resistant to even consider that there is something wrong with Centering Prayer. These articles below prove that there is something inherently wrong, especially the first article.

A Closer Look at Centering Prayer

The Danger of Centering Prayer

If you have not read these documents, then you do not even begin to know what you are doing, whether or not what you are doing is for Christians.

Have the courage and integrity to read these two articles linked above.

 

[BroIgnatius]

Why not let each person decide for themselves whether or not to use this method of prayer?

In the first article there are two excerpts that are critical:

The Vatican recently released the document called “Jesus Christ, the Bearer of the Water of Life: A Christian Reflection on the New Age.” It specifically identifies the following as New Age: Zen Buddhism, Hinduism, Yoga, Enneagram, Wicca, the Higher Self, the True Self, ALC’s, the “god within,” and TM (Transcendental Meditation). Many of these beliefs or practices have made their way into retreat centers, workshops, or parish programs. Good Catholics attend these events trusting them to be good Catholic programs. However, the Vatican document states that these new age beliefs and practices cannot be accepted by those who are faithful to Christ and his Church. The document also named some of the writers who had the most influence on New Agers. They were Carl Jung, Teilhard de Chardin, and Thomas Merton.

And the remarkable and heretical definition of the Eucharist by the founder of Centering Prayer, Father Keating:

In Open Mind, Open Heart, he says, on p.128, *“The Eucharist is the celebration of life: the coming together of all the material elements of the cosmos, their emergence to consciousness in human persons and the transformation of human consciousness into Divine consciousness. It is the manifestation of the Divine in and through the Christian community. We receive the Eucharist in order to become the Eucharist.” *

As we know, the Eucharist in not composed of all of the elements of the universe. The New Agers believe that all is one and all is god. In our Catholic faith, the Eucharist is the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord, Jesus Christ, and the greatest of the sacraments. We need to reflect on Hebrews 13:9, "Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teaching."

 

[Robert_Sock]

Because not all prayer is Christian. Not all prayer is safe. We need to stay close to the Church, stay within the Catholic tradition of prayer.

Why the resistance to use a traditional form of contemplative prayer that has been vetted for 1600 years and approved by the Church? Do you think the traditional forms are not good enough? What are you afraid of?

Have you even read these documents? I suspect not. Why are you so resistant to even consider that there is something wrong with Centering Prayer. These articles below prove that there is something inherently wrong, especially the first article.

A Closer Look at Centering Prayer

The Danger of Centering Prayer

If you have not read these documents, then you do not even begin to know what you are doing, whether or not what you are doing is for Christians.

Have the courage and integrity to read these two articles linked above.

I’ve read them, but do not buy their arguments.

Please explain the differences between the contemplative method endorsed in The Cloud of Unknowing and Centering Prayer?

 

[DebChris]

Prayer is the “Lifting up of heart and mind to God.”

What does scripture say, “Be still and know that I am God.”
How can we listen, unless we allow ourselves to quiet our minds and listen to what God may have to say?

“In the silence of our hearts we can hear him speak. If we only knew the art, the joy, the fruitfulness of silence, our homes would become the sunshine of God’s love, the burning flame of God’s love in action.”–St. Teresa of Calcutta

 

[Robert_Sock]

Prayer is the “Lifting up of heart and mind to God.”

What does scripture say, “Be still and know that I am God.”
How can we listen, unless we allow ourselves to quiet our minds and listen to what God may have to say?

“In the silence of our hearts we can hear him speak. If we only knew the art, the joy, the fruitfulness of silence, our homes would become the sunshine of God’s love, the burning flame of God’s love in action.”–St. Teresa of Calcutta

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Worth reading:

saint-mike.org/warfare/library/wp-content/docs/centeringprayer2.html

excerpt:

What Does St. Teresa of Avila Say About Contemplation?

Throughout their books, Fr. Keating and Fr. Pennington mention St. Teresa of Avila, implying that she is an advocate of their prayer techniques. However, after reading her books, I have found that her teachings on prayer are the opposite of what Keating and Pennington are teaching. First of all, she says that contemplation is a gift from God, and no technique can make it happen. She says it is usually given to people who have a deep prayer life and are practicing many virtues, although God can give it to anyone he chooses. She repeatedly insists that contemplation is divinely produced. She said that entering into the prayer of quiet or that of union whenever she wanted it "was out of the question"8 She also said in her book, Interior Mansion, "For it to be prayer at all, the mind must take a part in it."9 Cardinal Ratzinger, in his booklet, also quotes St. Teresa as saying “the very care not to think about anything will arouse the mind to think a great deal”, and that the separation of the mystery of Christ from Christian meditation is always a form of "betrayal"10 St. Teresa advised her nuns to meditate or think about the Passion of Christ as a preparation for contemplation. The Catechism describes contemplation as “a gaze of faith, fixed on Jesus” (#2715). The focus is Jesus and the heart is involved.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Worth reading:

saint-mike.org/warfare/library/wp-content/docs/centeringprayer2.html

excerpt:

What Does St. Teresa of Avila Say About Contemplation?

Throughout their books, Fr. Keating and Fr. Pennington mention St. Teresa of Avila, implying that she is an advocate of their prayer techniques. However, after reading her books, I have found that her teachings on prayer are the opposite of what Keating and Pennington are teaching. First of all, she says that contemplation is a gift from God, and no technique can make it happen. She says it is usually given to people who have a deep prayer life and are practicing many virtues, although God can give it to anyone he chooses. She repeatedly insists that contemplation is divinely produced. She said that entering into the prayer of quiet or that of union whenever she wanted it "was out of the question"8 She also said in her book, Interior Mansion, "For it to be prayer at all, the mind must take a part in it."9 Cardinal Ratzinger, in his booklet, also quotes St. Teresa as saying “the very care not to think about anything will arouse the mind to think a great deal”, and that the separation of the mystery of Christ from Christian meditation is always a form of "betrayal"10 St. Teresa advised her nuns to meditate or think about the Passion of Christ as a preparation for contemplation. The Catechism describes contemplation as “a gaze of faith, fixed on Jesus” (#2715). The focus is Jesus and the heart is involved.

Again, I wish somebody would show how Centering Prayer is that much different from the contemplative technique brought to light in The Cloud of Unknowing? In this book it is clearly stated that during contemplation, one must lift up their heart to God. Centering Prayer does not state this directly, but I have always been taking it as an assumption. I always have an image of my loving God while in Centering Prayer, but it’s in the back of my mind, close to the unconscious, but still within the recesses of my awareness (a hidden, inner or secret place). If Centering Prayer ignores this, then I agree that it’s bad. But I really believe that Centering Prayer is the emptying of the mind, fully and completely, except for this sacred, hidden image.

 

[BroIgnatius]

Again, I wish somebody would show how Centering Prayer is that much different from the contemplative technique brought to light in The Cloud of Unknowing? .

I have given you the links to answer your question. Did you read them?

 

[DebChris]

From all the things I have read on him, he was actually able to fly not just levitate and not only during prayer. He was seen numerous times by numerous people flying outside and inside the church, from the descriptions, usually anywhere between 5ft and 30ft off the ground.

So its interesting to me, he was the only person that I know of, that was given such an incredible gift, in all the years before and after.

The movie I watched was The Reluctant Saint /I about St. Joseph of Cupertino. I don’t own a television so I was able to watch the film on You Tube. The focus was of the movie was his child like faith.
God gives His gifts as He wills. Some saints have been able to bilocate. Healing is a common charism. The most common is the gift of praying in tongues, as mentioned in the Book of Acts.
Prophecy is speaking God’s message, not necessarily forecasting events. The use of any gift requires discernment, which itself is a gift of the Holy Spirit that develops over time.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I have given you the links to answer your question. Did you read them?

All I can say is that when I engage in CP, I maintain an image of my love for God deep within the recesses of my mind. Maybe I’m not engaging in CP properly, but what I do seems perfectly consistent with The Cloud of Unknowing.

I’ve read the articles and I see where it claims that Fr. Keating means for CP to result in a totally blank mind, but I know of others (Fr. Carl J. Arico who addressed this directly to me) who claim that CP never was meant to produce a totally blank mind.

Anyway, I call what I do CP and perhaps I should just call it contemplation to avoid a controversy. Again, I never lose sight of my love for God, and getting rid of all other clutter within my mind seems beneficial and most effective.

It saddens me to see how well respected Catholics can argue the way that they do. It especially saddens me that the Church allows such disagreements to go on without resolution. In any event, I’ll remain neutral in this disagreement and leave it to others to battle it out. My getting into this debate just drives me further away from God, which I do not want to happen. To stay away from the debate, I apologize for saying that I engage in CP, and should have called it contemplation right from the start.

I’ll be so grateful when I, and if, I get to Heaven and not have to put up with all the nonsense of this lowly world.

 

[DebChris]

I read St. Teresa of Avila’s Way of Perfection as well as other books that she has written. She does indeed call contemplation a gift from God. She writes about how vocal prayer can lead to contemplation when prayed slowly and deliberately. She is perplexed by those critical of contemplative prayer citing the Commandment to “Love God with all your heart, soul, and strength.”
I have taken silent retreats. I have worked with a spiritual director. It is within the Catholic Church that I learned that contemplation is the highest form of prayer. I learned that prayer begins at the vocal level. The next level is meditation. The third level is contemplation. The first two levels are mental. With contemplation, a person moves beyond visualization.
My spiritual director, as well as retreat directors have all recommended contemplation. It is what those outside the Catholic Church call meditation. Even if I want to pray vocally, I need to quiet my spirit. I need to set aside outside distractions. It is the reason that I pray St. Louis de Montfort’s prayer before beginning the rosary.
I have used rigorous exercise like running, when I was still allowed to do so, to release negative thoughts. When I swim I focus only on my breathing. Exercising means that I can give myself more fully to what I am reading as I read my daily scriptures.
God does not tell us to give up habits that have been shown to be healthy.
Allowing myself 15 minutes of contemplation during the day can be more invigorating than an afternoon nap.
I was just turned down for a medical study to see if meditation would help my migraines, because it is already a normal part of life–a part of my life learned under the leadership of the Catholic Church.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I read St. Teresa of Avila’s Way of Perfection as well as other books that she has written. She does indeed call contemplation a gift from God. She writes about how vocal prayer can lead to contemplation when prayed slowly and deliberately. She is perplexed by those critical of contemplative prayer citing the Commandment to “Love God with all your heart, soul, and strength.”
I have taken silent retreats. I have worked with a spiritual director. It is within the Catholic Church that I learned that contemplation is the highest form of prayer. I learned that prayer begins at the vocal level. The next level is meditation. The third level is contemplation. The first two levels are mental. With contemplation, a person moves beyond visualization.
My spiritual director, as well as retreat directors have all recommended contemplation. It is what those outside the Catholic Church call meditation. Even if I want to pray vocally, I need to quiet my spirit. I need to set aside outside distractions. It is the reason that I pray St. Louis de Montfort’s prayer before beginning the rosary.
I have used rigorous exercise like running, when I was still allowed to do so, to release negative thoughts. When I swim I focus only on my breathing. Exercising means that I can give myself more fully to what I am reading as I read my daily scriptures.
God does not tell us to give up habits that have been shown to be healthy.
Allowing myself 15 minutes of contemplation during the day can be more invigorating than an afternoon nap.
I was just turned down for a medical study to see if meditation would help my migraines, because it is already a normal part of life–a part of my life learned under the leadership of the Catholic Church.

Sorry to hear about your migraines. It seems that so many of us suffer some form of affliction. I suffer from anxiety and major depression. The best we can do is to offer our suffering to God and pray that these afflictions be used as our Purgatory while here in this world.

I fully agree that contemplation, where we have truly come to be in communion with God, is a gift that we cannot obtain on our own.

 

[DebChris]

Sorry to hear about your migraines. It seems that so many of us suffer some form of affliction. I suffer from anxiety and major depression. The best we can do is to offer our suffering to God and pray that these afflictions be used as our Purgatory while here in this world.

I fully agree that contemplation, where we have truly come to be in communion with God, is a gift that we cannot obtain on our own.

I’ve had migraines for years, headaches for most of my life.
I also understand anxiety and depression. The author of Run, Jog, Race describes running as moving meditation. Diana Nyad says to exercise in order to “exorcise the demons in your life.” You already know that depression can be repressed anger, or other emotions that need a safe outlet. Exercise can provide that. St. Paul tells us to pray always. Everything we do, including exercise can become a form of prayer.
I have gone on long runs and then written in my journal. It is a way to keep track of personal growth. Amazing when I get an answer to a prayer, and I tell God, “I didn’t ask for that,” but there it is in black and white.
I learned about journalling during my first retreat, an Easter retreat during the darkest period of my life. Years later, I went back to college where I had a spiritual director. He had me use lectio divina when I journal. The scripture verse becomes the first line in the journal. Don’t worry where your thoughts, and writing take you. He had me start with Romans.
Exercise is a natural antidote for depression because of the endorphins it releases. You can name your left foot “Glory” and your right foot “Praise.” As you step out, “Glory” and “Praise.” The talk test is used make sure you are going at the right pace. “Make a joyful noise unto the Lord.” He gave me my voice and never said I had to be in tune.
Of course, now running is off limits. I am under doctor’s orders to swim.

Remember what our Lord said about anybody who asks for the Holy Spirit. He will not be refused. As Catholics, we received the Holy Spirit through the Sacraments. Continue to be open to how He chooses to work through your life.