What new revelation does the holy Koran contain?

[openmind77]

Hi openmind,

Would you mind showing us where the word “wine” or “boys” is mentioned in the passage arthra quoted please?

Sometimes I wonder if I need reading glasses, my apologies…

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Are you saying that a youth does not mean a boy? (other translations actually say boys)

And if it is not wine they are drinking out of goblets then why mention intoxication (maybe it is vodka?)

BTW this the translation I usually look at: noblequran.com/translation/

 

[Servant19]

The idea that monotheism means no religious iconography, no praying with saints, no shrines or prayers for the dead, etc.

Eliminating iconography is not a bad thing. Eliminating iconography was the mission of Abraham, no need to go backwards.

There are prayers for the dead in Islam, Salat al-Janazah being one of them

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[Servant19]

Are you saying that a youth does not mean a boy? (other translations actually say boys)

And if it is not wine they are drinking out of goblets then why mention intoxication (maybe it is vodka?)

BTW this the translation I usually look at: noblequran.com/translation/

When there are variations in a word during translation you can be assured that the wording used is not clear cut. Arabic is a very unique language.
I will ask my wife if the verse actually uses the word “boys” or not.

The wine thing is an incorrect assumption you make. Alcohol is forbidden in Islam…strictly. There is no reason why something forbidden on earth should suddenly be allowed in heaven.

I would humbly suggest that these symbols used to describe the afterlife should be retained as symbols. This imagery is designed to give a sense as to how wonderful the afterlife is for those close to God, not a literal description of things we would actually do without a body…

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[openmind77]

When there are variations in a word during translation you can be assured that the wording used is not clear cut. Arabic is a very unique language.
I will ask my wife if the verse actually uses the word “boys” or not.

The wine thing is an incorrect assumption you make. Alcohol is forbidden in Islam…strictly. There is no reason why something forbidden on earth should suddenly be allowed in heaven.

I would humbly suggest that these symbols used to describe the afterlife should be retained as symbols. This imagery is designed to give a sense as to how wonderful the afterlife is for those close to God, not a literal description of things we would actually do without a body…

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Maybe you should ask her about the rest of the translation also:
17. They will be served by immortal boys,
18. With cups, and jugs, and a glass from the flowing wine,
19. Wherefrom they will get neither any aching of the head, nor any intoxication.
20. And fruit; that they may choose.
21. And the flesh of fowls that they desire.
22. And (there will be) Houris (fair females) with wide, lovely eyes (as wives for the pious),

Actually I think there is another explanation.I believe that Muhammad means exactly what he says literally. The fact is that Muhammad’s description of heaven is a pretty accurate description of the astral world (from books I have read about the astral plane). I think he visited such a place and mistook it for heaven.

But I don’t really want to harp on this section of the Koran.

Far more important, I still don’t know what new and unique truth is revealed in the Koran.

 

[Servant19]

Maybe you should ask her about the rest of the translation also:
17. They will be served by immortal boys,
18. With cups, and jugs, and a glass from the flowing wine,
19. Wherefrom they will get neither any aching of the head, nor any intoxication.
20. And fruit; that they may choose.
21. And the flesh of fowls that they desire.
22. And (there will be) Houris (fair females) with wide, lovely eyes (as wives for the pious),

Actually I think there is another explanation.I believe that Muhammad means exactly what he says literally. The fact is that Muhammad’s description of heaven is a pretty accurate description of the astral world (from books I have read about the astral plane). I think he visited such a place and mistook it for heaven.

But I don’t really want to harp on this section of the Koran.

Far more important, I still don’t know what new and unique truth is revealed in the Koran.

I would humbly suggest that with spiritual theology, there is nothing new. There is God, there is His Messenger and there is the Holy Spirit and the human soul which yearns to unite with all of them. How this is done is a spiritual mystery, and what is stated in the Quran is implicated in all Holy Texts revealed beforehand.

What is new however is the introduction of spiritual Laws into society. The elimination of alcohol, for example, is not to tease Muslims, it is the foundation of a society which will be devoid of character-changing chemicals.

The introduction of a legal system which is divinely ordained, albeit not very valid today based on the needs of a progressive society, are all indicative of a theology that is bringing spiritual principles into a progressively complex and networked society.

Through these concepts, nation building under a divine Law was born.

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[openmind77]

I would humbly suggest that with spiritual theology, there is nothing new. There is God, there is His Messenger and there is the Holy Spirit and the human soul which yearns to unite with all of them. How this is done is a spiritual mystery, and what is stated in the Quran is implicated in all Holy Texts revealed beforehand.

What is new however is the introduction of spiritual Laws into society. The elimination of alcohol, for example, is not to tease Muslims, it is the foundation of a society which will be devoid of character-changing chemicals.

The introduction of a legal system which is divinely ordained, albeit not very valid today based on the needs of a progressive society, are all indicative of a theology that is bringing spiritual principles into a progressively complex and networked society.

Through these concepts, nation building under a divine Law was born.

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Jesus and the New Testament brought us the idea of love for our fellow beings. Jesus said ‘love your enemies’, ‘turn the other cheek’ - these are new concepts that did not exist in any other theology before him.

I will grant that Islam and the Koran did a lot of good for the Arabs in terms of nation building, better legal system and getting rid of superstition and idolatry.

If the Koran does not add anything to the message in the NT, but in fact adds errors like denying the Trinity or strange ideas of heaven, then I would say it is not that useful for the rest of the world.

 

[Servant19]

Jesus and the New Testament brought us the idea of love for our fellow beings. Jesus said ‘love your enemies’, ‘turn the other cheek’ - these are new concepts that did not exist in any other theology before him.

I will grant that Islam and the Koran did a lot of good for the Arabs in terms of nation building, better legal system and getting rid of superstition and idolatry.

If the Koran does not add anything to the message in the NT, but in fact adds errors like denying the Trinity or strange ideas of heaven, then I would say it is not that useful for the rest of the world.

This is my personal understanding, not necessarily from the Baha’i Faith.

My understanding is that what Moses brought to the peoples of Israel was the foundations of personal salvation which was fulfilled in the Revelation of Jesus Christ. When a revelation is fulfilled, it can be applied on a global level successfully.

Judaism was not for the world, Christianity was, since it fulfilled Jewish Law.

The same, moreover, applies to the peoples of Arabia. What Muhammad brought to these people in terms of SOCIETAL salvation was fulfilled in the Baha’i Faith.

This is what so many cannot grasp.

THE PURPOSE OF MUHAMMAD IS NOT TO OFFER PERSONAL SALVATION
(That was already done through Moses and Jesus)

There is a shift now towards society, not the individual.

In the Baha’i religion, which fulfils Islam, there is no individualism, the whole earth is considered a human body, and you can see numerous passages and Writings relating the earth as like a human being. The body of the earth is in need of salvation and this process was commenced by Muhammad and fulfilled by Baha’u’llah for universal application successfully.
The salvation of the body of the individual has already been realised, so no need to do it again.

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[IgnatianPhilo]

Eliminating iconography is not a bad thing. Eliminating iconography was the mission of Abraham, no need to go backwards.

There are prayers for the dead in Islam, Salat al-Janazah being one of them

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That narrative of Abraham being ordered to get rid of iconography seems to be missing from Genesis but if true why did God command iconography in the temple? That is God orders Solomon to create an image and God orders Moses and Israel to add the image of angels on top of the arc. Rather inconsistent.

Also want to comment on the apparent newness of Muhammad’s revelation. It was earlier brought up that Muhammad’s main revelation was that we should worship God, that there was one God, that Christians are apparently committing an excess in their doctrine of the trinity.

Were none of these things revealed by Jesus or did we need another revelation telling us that Jesus ought not be worshipped?

 

[openmind77]

…

THE PURPOSE OF MUHAMMAD IS NOT TO OFFER PERSONAL SALVATION
(That was already done through Moses and Jesus)

There is a shift now towards society, not the individual.

In the Baha’i religion, which fulfils Islam, there is no individualism, the whole earth is considered a human body, and you can see numerous passages and Writings relating the earth as like a human being. The body of the earth is in need of salvation and this process was commenced by Muhammad and fulfilled by Baha’u’llah for universal application successfully.
The salvation of the body of the individual has already been realised, so no need to do it again.

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I quite agree. Islam does not add anything for the individual and his personal salvation. But isn’t that what religion is all about? But by rejecting the Trinity, adding some errors about the afterlife and reviving rules from the OT, Islam was a step backwards.

In any case, what Islam does for society was only applicable to Arabia and that too only in the middle ages. Islam has not really had much value since the renaissance. Since the time of the Magna Carta and later the US constitution, Islam and the Koran are outdated concepts, their time has past. We need democracy and equal rights for men and women, both of which Islam has problems with.

If Bahaism is an improvement for the world, it should really skip Islam and build on top of the NT, I don’t see anything in Islam that needs to be retained.

 

[Servant19]

I quite agree. Islam does not add anything for the individual and his personal salvation. But isn’t that what religion is all about? But by rejecting the Trinity, adding some errors about the afterlife and reviving rules from the OT, Islam was a step backwards.

In any case, what Islam does for society was only applicable to Arabia and that too only in the middle ages. Islam has not really had much value since the renaissance. Since the time of the Magna Carta and later the US constitution, Islam and the Koran are outdated concepts, their time has past. We need democracy and equal rights for men and women, both of which Islam has problems with.

If Bahaism is an improvement for the world, it should really skip Islam and build on top of the NT, I don’t see anything in Islam that needs to be retained.

The Bible contains nothing on social laws that can provide social cohesion in a diversified world, where all peoples are respected and considered valuable contributors to an ever-advancing civilisation.

That’s the Baha’i Faith.

This is not possible without the national cohesions that Islam brought.

Love thy neighbour became
The Nation of Islam, became
The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens.

Progression is critical.

It is the reason we have kindy, then primary, then high school, then university.

The plant doesn’t flower as soon as the seed germinates dear openmind

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[SyroMalankara]

The Bible contains nothing on social laws that can provide social cohesion in a diversified world, where all peoples are respected and considered valuable contributors to an ever-advancing civilisation.

You are comparing apples and oranges. If you are going to compare the Bible, you should compare it to the Quran, not the Islamic society.
Islam can be compared with Christianity or even Catholicism - which is open to all people.

 

[Servant19]

You are comparing apples and oranges. If you are going to compare the Bible, you should compare it to the Quran, not the Islamic society.
Islam can be compared with Christianity or even Catholicism - which is open to all people.

Of course, I agree with you Syro.

Salvation of the person is the apple
Salvation of the body of humanity is the orange.

The Bible doesn’t give any guidance on the “how” of the unification of a diverse humanity.
The Catholic Church has been incredibly inspired in some of its documents relating to the unification of the human race, but her hands are tied in the “how” of actually achieving it.

It starts with the the removal of power from the individual, and a clerical system culminating in a Pope has traditionally been a position of authority.

The unification of mankind cannot take place with the power of decision making lying in the hands of individuals.

God needs to speak again for that and He did in Islam where all power lies in Allah, all others are human beings, of equal standing.

Today, that has been viciously abused by the Islamic clerical order.

Thank the Lord that God has spoken again in the form of Baha’u’llah to straighten the path of global salvation where Islam has so ludicrously deviated, and in this Blessed Day we can say all power lies in the hands of the people. We are finally one…

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[SyroMalankara]

The Catholic Church has been incredibly inspired in some of its documents relating to the unification of the human race, but her hands are tied in the “how” of actually achieving it.

In what way?

It starts with the the removal of power from the individual, and a clerical system culminating in a Pope has traditionally been a position of authority.

It’s entirely voluntary.

The unification of mankind cannot take place with the power of decision making lying in the hands of individuals.

The Guardians are individuals, as are Custodians, it’s Founder and the members of the House of Justice - all individuals.

Thank the Lord that God has spoken again in the form of Baha’u’llah to straighten the path of global salvation where Islam has so ludicrously deviated, and in this Blessed Day we can say all power lies in the hands of the people. We are finally one…

.

 

[openmind77]

The Bible contains nothing on social laws that can provide social cohesion in a diversified world, where all peoples are respected and considered valuable contributors to an ever-advancing civilisation.

That’s the Baha’i Faith.

This is not possible without the national cohesions that Islam brought.

Love thy neighbour became
The Nation of Islam, became
The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens.

Progression is critical.

It is the reason we have kindy, then primary, then high school, then university.

The plant doesn’t flower as soon as the seed germinates dear openmind

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My point is that national cohesion is not the business of religion. We have secular institutions to take care of that. The world community and world citizenship is also not the purview of religion. Of course religion needs to support these secular institutions but when religions try to lead in these fields, we get a mess like in Iran, not to speak of ISIS.

Religion of course requires a community (the Buddhist idea of the Sangha) but it should mainly be concerned with nature of God, purpose of life and personal salvation. In all these three, Islam either repeats what already exists or goes backwards (like denying the Trinity), it does not add anything new of value. Then it interferes in things like government which is none of its business.

 

[meltzerboy]

The Bible contains nothing on social laws that can provide social cohesion in a diversified world, where all peoples are respected and considered valuable contributors to an ever-advancing civilisation.

That’s the Baha’i Faith.

This is not possible without the national cohesions that Islam brought.

Love thy neighbour became
The Nation of Islam, became
The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens.

Progression is critical.

It is the reason we have kindy, then primary, then high school, then university.

The plant doesn’t flower as soon as the seed germinates dear openmind

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I beg to differ. Everything can already be found by studying the Written Law (Torah) and the Oral Law (Talmud) regarding both our relationship to G-d and to each other, including both Jew and Gentile, as well as to animals and the whole earth, and within the context of the larger society.

 

[TonyBS]

I beg to differ. Everything can already be found by studying the Written Law (Torah) and the Oral Law (Talmud) regarding both our relationship to G-d and to each other, including both Jew and Gentile, as well as to animals and the whole earth, and within the context of the larger society.

May I suggest this as a very good source of information about The Koran and how it is Interpreted.

It also shows that Translations into English need to have been done with a deep spiritual understanding.

bahai-library.com/books/announcement.quran/index.html

An extract

The greater part of the Qur’an is comprised of verses that are “figurative” (Mutashabihat), as compared with the “clear” or “perspicuous” (Muhkamat) verses which cover the laws and ordinances. While it was undoubtedly a relatively straightforward matter to translate the clear verses, translation of the figurative verses required interpretations, which were provided by the Muslim clergy, 'ulama (lit. learned). In many

page xi

cases this resulted in translations devoid of beauty or lacking the richness of meaning conveyed by the original Arabic text. An example may be found in the opening verses of the Surih of the Fig (XCV) [95], which reads:
I swear by the fig and by the olive,
By Mount Sinai,
And by this inviolate soil!

In the verses cited, God swears by the fig and the olive, by Mount Sinai and inviolate soil. The literal translation is correct, but the reader of English might well ask: “What relationship is there between figs and olives, a mountain, and inviolate soil, that God should swear by them, all in one sequence of verses?” The beauty and meaning conveyed by these verses becomes more readily apparent when one considers passages revealed by Baha’u’llah in the Kitab-i-Iqan2 concerning four Manifestations: Abraham, Who appeared on the Mount of Figs, Jesus, on the Mount of Olives, Moses on Mount Sinai, and Muhammad in Mecca, the inviolate soil.

Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

In what way?

It’s entirely voluntary.

The Guardians are individuals, as are Custodians, it’s Founder and the members of the House of Justice - all individuals.

There is only one Guardian, and He has passed away.

The individuals who serve on the Universal House of Justice have zero individual authority.
The Authority comes when they make decisions as a Divine Institution, as a body of 9 individuals collectively only.

There is no individual authority in the Baha’i religion today.

In regards to Catholicisms contributions towards the inevitable unification of mankind, which will occur through the release of the Spirit of the Age which inspired those holy men in Persia to seek out the Promised One, we see tremendous alignment with Baha’i and Islamuc teaching.

There is a thread in the Non-Catholic religions section here entitled “The Mystery of the Unity of Mankind” where these Catholic teachings are explored in more depth

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[Servant19]

My point is that national cohesion is not the business of religion. We have secular institutions to take care of that. The world community and world citizenship is also not the purview of religion. Of course religion needs to support these secular institutions but when religions try to lead in these fields, we get a mess like in Iran, not to speak of ISIS.

Religion of course requires a community (the Buddhist idea of the Sangha) but it should mainly be concerned with nature of God, purpose of life and personal salvation. In all these three, Islam either repeats what already exists or goes backwards (like denying the Trinity), it does not add anything new of value. Then it interferes in things like government which is none of its business.

If national cohesion is not the business of religion then one has to ask who’s business is it?
As long as there are humans on earth, there will be God offering guidance, and mans ego rejecting that guidance. If man ego is asserted then we have the mess we currently have on earth.

The thing you may wish to consider openmind is the meaning behind the following verses in the Old Testament:

Isaiah 9:7 “7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.”

Deut 16:18 “You shall appoint judges and officers in all your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, according to your tribes, and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment. You shall not pervert justice. You shall not show partiality, and you shall not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and subverts the cause of the righteous. Justice, and only justice, you shall follow, that you may live and inherit the land that the Lord your God is giving you."

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[openmind77]

If national cohesion is not the business of religion then one has to ask who’s business is it?
As long as there are humans on earth, there will be God offering guidance, and mans ego rejecting that guidance. If man ego is asserted then we have the mess we currently have on earth.

Of course we want guidance from God. We should welcome such guidance and we will surely get it when the Christ Returns. But we just don’t want political guidance from mullahs or their equivalent in other religions.

The thing you may wish to consider openmind is the meaning behind the following verses in the Old Testament:

Isaiah 9:7 “7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.”

Deut 16:18 “You shall appoint judges and officers in all your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, according to your tribes, and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment. You shall not pervert justice. You shall not show partiality, and you shall not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and subverts the cause of the righteous. Justice, and only justice, you shall follow, that you may live and inherit the land that the Lord your God is giving you."

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Sorry, I don’t really read or follow much of the OT.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Clearly you have a flawed understanding of Catholicism if you think one man wields all the power. The Pope is a servant to the other bishops of which there are today more than 5,100 worldwide. These bishops in Union with the Pope are the ordinary teaching authority of the Church. Nine men - women are excluded by Bahai - can be no less totalitarian than 1. How is that an improvement on the Catholic leadership model?