P
pnewton
Guest
So your answer to the OP is “much”?
- Status
V
Verisimilitude
Guest
No. Post #45.
N
neat62
Guest
Verisimilitude;3857914
Lucky for you, we will never know what the world would have been like without that foreign policy.
V
Verisimilitude
Guest
I am seeing it now with it.
Is Viet Nam the actual threat it was proclaimed in the 60’s? Did we serve ourselves better by funding Iran in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s overthrowing a democratically elected government? We did the same in Pakistan in the 90’s; how is that working for us?
P
pnewton
Guest
I am sorry for having missed that. Please accept my apology. A good post it was.
V
Verisimilitude
Guest
All is well. Thanks.
N
neat62
Guest
Veitnam was never a threat. Communism was.
But we have seen what happens when we sit back and do nothing. And remember the 1979 revolution, it was done by radical Muslims primarily. And we didn’t overthrow Mossadegh. There were obvious anti nationalization sympathizers in Iran. And no matter how you look at it, radical Islam is involved in all the middle east issues that you speak of. And Im not so sure how any lack of US involvment is good for the US.
V
Verisimilitude
Guest
Seeing as how they were the victor and are still communist; do the 60,000 dead and many more wounded mean it was good policy?
If you think the US was doing nothing during that time and also feel we had no role in overthrowing Mossadegh then I don;t know what to say. Fantasy is good for sci-fi, not so good for foreign policy.
Shouldn’t other nations have the same right to self-determination as Americans even if it against our idea of what is good or not, or do you too think we have the moral right to kill others before they try and kill us?
Radical Islam… Are you of the opinion Islam is ideologically hijacked by the murderers who flew planes into our buildings? Is it America’s responsibility to rid Islam of it’s ‘radicalism’?
N
neat62
Guest
Verisimilitude;3858228
guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver
Particularly:
G.
3.
a,b,c,& d
The poor policy was not fighting it to win.
I didn’t and never said that.
Depends on who it is.
Of course. That is why I said radical Islam.
Yes it is. Here is why:
guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver
Particularly:
G.
3.
a,b,c,& d
R
rogerh_57
Guest
Most of what makes us proud of America (United States actually, America encompasses north and south), is the freedoms that our founding fathers gave us. The freedoms that, throughout many conflicts and wars, soldiers have died defending our heritage and way of life. It is that freedom that enables you to pursue your dreams and be free of persecution, whether religious or other. I am proud and would not live anywhere else.
V
Verisimilitude
Guest
That blames the military not the policy and I have more respect for the US militarywhen given a mission than that. 6 years into Iraq the same could be said. The failure in policy is to go to begin with. Military and political interventions have not been productive or well received.
Mosaddeq was removed from power on August 19, 1953, in a coup d’état, supported and funded by the British and U.S. governments…
How would you feel if China funded a coup in American politics?
That’s great… Do you use a Christian ethic or R/D, or C/L/n-c political ethic to evaluate who it is?
Have you ever considered you might have a wrong view of that? It’s enough to try and be versed and practiced in ones own faith much less anothers.
Here is why:
Thanks, it was good to read again.
Here I will admit my own hypocricy in a political sense as I would voluntarily support the Jewish people of Israel the nation to defend themselves. I’ll explain if you like, but I would otherwise stop all US foreign aid funded by an income tax.
I’m not an end-timer regarding the Temple being rebuilt I just think Israel as a patriarch is worth defending for my own faith. I’m not to worried about offending Islam and the brusing it takes according to bin Laden.
Reports have him somewhere in Pakistan. I say go get him even though it’s been almost 7 years.
He cries about a mythical nation his Muslim/Arab neighbors keep as a slum and breed hate from to keep alive unrelenting hate against the Jews using Jerusalem as an excuse. Iran and Syria, Egypt and Arabia all cry the same as he. Is that political or religious similarity among them?
I embrace my collective responsibility as an American citizen whether I agree with past or current policy. I think we have over reacted here since the attacks and personally I think Israel should take the West Bank and just declare the inhabitants citizens of Israel, but however they do it it is theirs to do.
I have to agree with him here mostly. Not for the same reasons but I don’t think we should have our military around the world like it is now.
Jews is a 4 letter word in Islam.
He is right again according to ‘b’.
Let’s add:
f(Q2),
Long answer he gives. The ‘moderates’ just say they don’t agree with his actions, but the do agree with his politics. They also say they don’t agree with his interpretation of the Quran but acknowledge with quiet confidence one day all will be for allah one way or another- peace or war- it is up to allah to decide.
P
Peregrino
Guest
There ya go again Vern. Some references would be nice given that “he has been thoughly [sic] refuted”… I think you mean “had he simply read and understood the Constitution as I do” he would never have written the book…
You may disagree with the thesis and the perspective but that in itself doesn’t make it invalid. If you consider that in 1776 one had to own at least 5,000 pounds of property to run for Governor and at least 1,000 pounds to run for state senator in Maryland then you find that ninety percent of the population was excluded from holding office. Back then, those were quite considerable sums of money. Oligarchy or democracy which is it? Given these types of facts, I can’t rule out that the common man of 1776 would disagree with Beard et. al.
We tend to put the founders on a pedastal but we forget that women, Native Americans, people of African descent and the poor in general were excluded from participation in government for a considerable period of time after the founding of this country. This is a perfect example of why we should avoid blindly worshiping ourselves, we should try to live up to our hype and we should always critically engage our “progress”.
N
neat62
Guest
Verisimilitude;3858908
It certainly does not. The policy in Vietnam was “police action” not war. Our troops were handcuffed.
(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:
(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.
(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.
(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.
(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.
.
It certainly does not. The policy in Vietnam was “police action” not war. Our troops were handcuffed.
So you say. I disagree. To me, Saddam has not been productive or well received.
Again, I didn’t and never said that. I would gladly discuss this issue in another thread if you’d like to.
An American security and interest ethic.
Such as?
Just because it is old, does not mean that it is not relevant. And it is still relevant.
?? No, These ones:
(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:
(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.
(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.
(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.
(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.
L
LilyM
Guest
Huh - I can tell you exactly where the British (and Australians, for that matter) were - they died like flies in the Battle of Britain, and in German POW camps afterwards, because America couldn’t be a**ed preventing Hitler from overrunning Europe and near as darn Britain as well.
Secondly dying like flies in Japanese prison camps throughout Southeast Asia, and worked to death on the Thai-Burma Railway, because again America couldn’t be a**ed to help them or us in time to save Singapore. (See a little movie called ‘Bridge on the River Kwai’ to get an idea of how much British pows suffered in South East Asia).
And where were the Americans when the Japanese near as darn took over their wonderful ally Australia if it was ‘your’ operation? We had to fight them off in the muck and mountains of the Kokoda Track in New Guinea, a stone’s throw from our coastline, and endure nearly TWO YEARS of Japanese bombing raids on our city of Darwin.
Don’t you dare make this into an ‘our war was worse than your war’ contest because there is no way the US suffered more than Britain did either during or after the war
N
neat62
Guest
LilyM;3859312
He didn’t. And it’s funny. Now we are being told to stay at home and stay out of everybody’s business. Damned if you do…you know the rest.Don’t you dare make this into an ‘our war was worse than your war’ contest because there is no way the US suffered more than Britain did
J
jman507
Guest
Does that mean they could not be proud about that too?While that is true, I’m pretty sure Canada, Great Britain, Ireland, France, etc. don’t imprison or kill dissenters either.
L
LilyM
Guest
Well, he did imply that Britain was sitting on its a** doing not much during the war, as if. And I would never say that America should keep out of everybody’s business … only some particular business.
But yes, there’s a certain amount of that attitude. I guess it’s just because we’re all the much smaller siblings who need Big Bro to help us out at times but a) resent it a bit when he does and b) are ever-so-slightly scared of him as well.
N
neat62
Guest
LilyM;3859402
Well, I think you misinterpreted his comments. I am pretty sure that’s not what he was getting at.
LOL and what may that be?? LOLAnd I would never say that America should keep out of everybody’s business … only some particular business.
Sorry, but which attitude?But yes, there’s a certain amount of that attitude. I guess it’s just because we’re all the much smaller siblings who need Big Bro to help us out at times but a) resent it a bit when he does and b) are ever-so-slightly scared of him as well.
W
wabrams
Guest
Which in all reality isn’t based on what happened to British POW’s, but what happened to French POW’s. Even then, the movie is grossly inaccurate.
L
LilyM
Guest
Of course the British POWs got champagne, caviar and locals to work on the railway in their place instead
- Status