What of The Trans-Gendered? - And joining a Religious Order - Please at least try 2 understand b4 condemning me to hell

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**Who we are and What we do, are and must remain separate entities, especially when it comes to subjects such as these These being when people KNOW of another’s sin and thus point their crooked little fingers at the feminine-boy, or the masculine-girl. If you think back to grammer school - or I’m sorry to say, maybe just taking a long hard look at your own children… It’s often not that difficult to see the children who will grow up with this Cross to bear.

It is no choice. Just as when you looked at your wife for the first time, or your husband to be first looked into your eyes, You Knew there was love there. The Heart chooses who it chooses. So for those who state they are gay, support them, love them, do not condemn them, they can read the bible just like you can.

What about those that are born with 2-genitals. Or none. Or they had both at birth but the parent’s not wanting a freak has an operation done to destroy one set… you know, they already had 2 girls so they make this one a boy. They have a 50-50 shot at getting it right.
But what happens when they get it wrong? My Mother was given hormones during her pregnancy with me - At 3 years old I remember clearly ripping off this frilly dress and being absolutely incensed that no one else could see the ‘obvious’ - that i wasn’t a girl, i was a boy!

I had relationships with boys, there were no childhood molestation nor were my parents animals. It just is what it is. No sin in WHO i am. Like the man attracted by say, cats. He must chose whether to follow God’s word - or that furry little cat into the alley.
silly, but you got the point.

Now people like me are called Transgendered. All babies are female until testosterone hits it’s blood stream and it starts to change into a boy. FACT. Also a fact: Sometimes for unknown reason or other hormone transfluxions, this baby reverts BACK to female. This is why so many people struggled with being gay or trans-gendered. I took testosterone, removed my breasts and have a beard and i’m losing my hair. I am also celibate.

Since in Heaven, we will as The Bible says: “We shall ALL Live as The Angels do, Being Neither female NOR male”.
And Our Religious that still do… Wear Their Order’s Habits of olde… Their Habit was always as a sign of their Great Faith in the life to come. A Public Sign of their Great Faith in The Life that comes after this short one, the one that will come to and for us all.

So then, May “I” become a Monk? May I become a member of an Order, though not LIVE IN Community, But be a vowed member of Community Order, say The Servites?
No Gender-Marker need be spoken. I could be a vowed Servite in The Black Habit and Take the Name Mary John (Jack).
I have tried to find an absolute Papal Document on this matter - and have come up empty. During confessions every Priest has a different answer to this question: May I Be a Vowed Member of an Order WHO I am?

In my 20’s when I learned who The Servites were, My heart finally smiled in absolute joy! This was THE Order I had sought! But as a female, I could not join the Sisters, for I know me. I am like a straight-male who was born with 'the short end of the stick (so to speak) and I knew then it would not be a Holy Decision to Live in Community with women. I would by My Nature fall in love with one in time, and God Help me if I placed myself in that situation.

So i let time go by, saddened by the fact that I could never BE male - Then I learned of the Surgery - upper chest surgery and was able to have it done… the hormones changed my body giving it facial hair and muscle tone, etc. My outside is the closest to WHO I am than it can be, and anyways what is in my pants is of NO Concern to you, or anyone else But Me. Though Living in Community with men, well i might for whatever reason become an unholy presence for some male friar. Who Knows.

But I live alone - own this home - and am now 40. Perhaps I am too old anyways.
But Where is OUR Place? Being gay, it isn’t about SEX. it’s who you Love.
Trans-gendered is that, along with (clearly) Gender! Look back on all the people you have loved sir? They were women? Congrats. you are not gay sir. Mine? Women. and I/WHO I AM remains male - where ever the gender-seed is, the gender-mind - the gender ism is, it is male. I can not change that - have tried for most of my life.

But now - today… What do The Papal Documents have to say about others like me?
Because there are many. Perhaps due to the hormones in our Milk… Perhaps in the 60’s and early 70’s it was like with me, the doctors of women with a history of miscarriages were given hormonal shots all the way through - though in my family case it was The RH Factor, and being o- I’d have lived regardless. But that’s neither important today.

Today I need to know: DO I have options… Or can I never be a Monk/or a Friar or even a Deacon?!
Was told it was up to the parish - or up to The Order - But Who do I ask to get to The Servite Head and ask?
Although I have met The Very Holy Servite, Father Peter Mary Rookey, 96 years old, give or take! of Chicago. But I have trouble getting him long enough to speak with him.
Any Priest here, could - would you take this up with him, and to whomever he says is above him? I want HIS Words though, since I know of His Holiness.

Now all is out here all out in the open.
Where/What does the Church have to say about all of this - and of me.
Are there options for me and others Like me? - or not a chance.

In Jesus Through Mary,
Jack Joseph
**

“Mercy is Highly under-rated”
 
I can’t answer your question, but I can pray for you to know what His will is for you.

Prayers,
mlz
 
I cannot speak as a representative of the official Church, because I am just a sinner.

I can say that with this sort of conflict in your past, you need to bring it up with a spiritual advisor, and with a member of the religious order you wish to be a part of, before proceeding.

By the way: Your quote:
Since in Heaven, we will as The Bible says: “We shall ALL Live as The Angels do, Being Neither female NOR male”.
Is inaccurate. The Bible does not say that. It says we shall not “marry, nor be given in marriage.” (Mt 22:30; Mk 12:23). That is, we will not engage in sexual activity. We will, however, maintain our gender, since we will have a body (pneumatikon soma) and gender is inseparable from having a human body.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA.
 
First, we cannot condemn you to Hell (as per your title).

Secondly, the Servites have a secular Third Order that might be of interest to you.

What I would suggest is that you contact the Servites directly, or the vocations director of your diocese. It may be that they will not be able to accept you, there are many reasons they do not accept people, one of which is age. What I am saying is that often people will want to join a religious organization and have some sort of bar, transgenderism (?) is by no means the only bar to entry.

If there is a Servite monastery near you, you might call and make an appointment to see someone there. You seem to be attracted to their sporituality; you may be able to find a spiritual director through them even if you can’t join them.

Also, if when you contact people you keep your statement very brief–I am sure the urge to explain your very unusual situatiin is very strong, but overall your actual question can get lost in the explanations. Just something brief like, I am very drawn to the Servite spirituality and would lime to explore the options I have to grow in it as a transgender person now living as a man. Or however you wpuld desrcibe yourself to others. Just keep it brief remembering that they are busy!
 
God loves His children , I will pray for Him to give you His help and guidance ,as well as His love . God bless you .

:highprayer::signofcross:
 
The Servite Secular Institute could be an option–its members take vows but do not live in community. That would at least get around some of your concerns, but whether or not it is really what God intends for you is of course a matter for a longer process of discernment. But that could be something worth looking into.

Honestly it may be that you already have been given your cross to bear, and simply doing so, in the company of Our Lady of Sorrows, may be your calling. But I hope that, whether in the SSI, OSSM, or elsewhere, you find the spiritual stability and anchoring you need to progress.

I’ll keep you in my prayers.
 
** Just as when you looked at your wife for the first time, or your husband to be first looked into your eyes, You Knew there was love there. The Heart chooses who it chooses**.

All babies are female until testosterone hits it’s blood stream and it starts to change into a boy. FACT.

Being gay, it isn’t about SEX. it’s who you Love

Like others said, I can’t condemn you. I don’t know what you’re going through either. But I can confidently tell you you have a lot to learn about love. Love is a choice. The biggest problem Catholics have with these groups is that they tend to function purely on desire and follow impulse. Your words here are indicative of that. You may have been born with temptation, inclination, whatever you want to call it, but that does not mean you have to be a slave to it. I’m sorry if that sounded offensive, I didn’t mean for it to. I don’t know how else to put it though. Rest assured, I’m probably one of the most lustful men I know. I fight with it every day. But I recognize it as a fight, a temptation. Yeah I was born this way, but that doesn’t mean I have to act out on it and follow whatever pleases me. It isn’t easy, it isn’t fun, especially being in college when everyone around me is sleeping around. Yet I refuse to act out in such a way, I refuse to follow my desires. Being a Catholic is much, much, much deeper.

This is scientifically incorrect. The sex of a person is determined as soon as conception occurs. Please don’t emphatically proclaim false information as factual.

Yet frequently, in LGBT groups love and sex are blurred. As I noted earlier you have a lot to learn about love. It is not an impulsive uncontrollable desire. Lust is. But not love. If you blieve that love is something you can’t control, you are kind of admitting that sex at least has a lot to do with all of this, as your idea of love is essentially just following your physical innate desires.

Again I’m sorry if that sounds mean, I’m not wise enough to know a nicer way to phrase it. Just know that I’m being genuine, uncondemning, and will keep you in my prayers. And I did read your whole post, it’s just that it was too long for me to quote the whole thing and type a response, it wouldn’t all fit in this post ha.
 
** All babies are female until testosterone hits it’s blood stream and it starts to change into a boy. FACT.**
Actually, no. As someone else said, your gender is determined at conception. Specifically, the X or Y chromosomes in the cells that joined to form you.

Even though you began life as a female body, your actual gender is written into the DNA of your every cell.

ICXC NIKA.
 
actually the babies are in fact Physically FEMALE - that is a sense the default-state physically. … When testosterone hits the growing child what would have cont. to grow into the clitoris becomes the penis and the ovaries into testicles. Seriously, read any medical journal. blew me away as well.

the XY or XX chromosome making definitive male or female is also not irrefutable, since the tennis player - female one - had xy genes and stated she never had any sense of being male and she is all female - no surgeries - look that one up too.

my point is only this: THAT yes Bible States we shall ALL be neither Male nor Female, no more… as the angels are . Didnt say we will BE angels, no. But like they have NO gender, neither will we. gender was for this world, body one, period.
fact as well.

and of course I know what Love is, why wouldn’t i?
gay people and transgendered are not the same. The few times Ive fallen in love - not lust - were women. The great Love of my life, a woman. I even prayed: Lord, please just allow me a friend, but bing! Fell in Love - a pure-love since i never touched, never would have b/c i loved her, though i did fight that can’t-get–close-enough-to-her feeling every dy i saw her. Not for sexual reasons, but b/c my love for her was against my wishes so to speak. so ive always been "a guy who got the short end of the stick - so to speak.

all i wanted to find out here - was CANON LAW on the subject, which one person kindly did send to me - and if there was any Papal TRUTH spoken, not reg. statement but when A Pope speaks on issues of morality and such with Infallibility attached. everything he says isn’t so - Thus my question on What Catholic Law/Infallible Papal Statements are there concerning the trans-gendered (my case due to hormones given to my mother while I was 2months on.

and to know that this happens - and the medical reasons they believe are behind the different degrees and fluidity of femininity to masculinity. How Hormones can turn a babies physical-gender growth (it’s been taped and shown to all who will view it, tiny babies moving and growing in the womb, and hormonal change-ups per se can be seen as well, hence my stating as ‘fact’.

I only wanted to know my options - i have studied this as one does an ailment. WHO I am is not a sin, it is just who i am. Now what i do or say certainly like anyone else Can Be sinful.

anyway, Peace be with you all
Jack
 
**actually the babies are in fact Physically FEMALE - that is a sense the default-state physically. … When testosterone hits the growing child what would have cont. to grow into the clitoris becomes the penis and the ovaries into testicles. Seriously, read any medical journal. blew me away as well.

the XY or XX chromosome making definitive male or female is also not irrefutable, since the tennis player - female one - had xy genes and stated she never had any sense of being male and she is all female - no surgeries - look that one up too.**

my point is only this: THAT yes Bible States we shall ALL be neither Male nor Female, no more… as the angels are . Didnt say we will BE angels, no. But like they have NO gender, neither will we. gender was for this world, body one, period.
fact as well.

and of course I know what Love is, why wouldn’t i?
gay people and transgendered are not the same. The few times Ive fallen in love - not lust - were women. The great Love of my life, a woman. I even prayed: Lord, please just allow me a friend, but bing! Fell in Love - a pure-love since i never touched, never would have b/c i loved her, though i did fight that can’t-get–close-enough-to-her feeling every dy i saw her. Not for sexual reasons, but b/c my love for her was against my wishes so to speak. so ive always been "a guy who got the short end of the stick - so to speak.

all i wanted to find out here - was CANON LAW on the subject, which one person kindly did send to me - and if there was any Papal TRUTH spoken, not reg. statement but when A Pope speaks on issues of morality and such with Infallibility attached. everything he says isn’t so - Thus my question on What Catholic Law/Infallible Papal Statements are there concerning the trans-gendered (my case due to hormones given to my mother while I was 2months on.

and to know that this happens - and the medical reasons they believe are behind the different degrees and fluidity of femininity to masculinity. How Hormones can turn a babies physical-gender growth (it’s been taped and shown to all who will view it, tiny babies moving and growing in the womb, and hormonal change-ups per se can be seen as well, hence my stating as ‘fact’.

I only wanted to know my options - i have studied this as one does an ailment. WHO I am is not a sin, it is just who i am. Now what i do or say certainly like anyone else Can Be sinful.

anyway, Peace be with you all
Jack
You aren’t going to have an easy time arguing this with me. I’ve been studying biochemistry for the past 3 years and intend to make a career out of this. That said I am still only a student, with much to learn, but I assure you I am very studious in my work. I urge you to pick up a textbook and go from there, as opposed to a periodical.

PHYSICALLY, you can trace the determination of your gender back to when your associated sperm cell was formed at the completion of gametogenesis. This is way before conception. There is a physical basis to this, chromosomes are a physical reality, not an abstract non-physical concept. The developing male and female fetus may have similar features before genitalia are developed, especially during stages like gastrulation and organogenesis, but there is always a distinct biochemical difference between male and female from the moment of conception. Always. No exception. You need to understand that gender is not determined by feelings. For that matter, love is not determined by feelings.

As for your example: the tennis player was a male. Scientifically, he is a male. There is no debate about this, it is easy to determine. Having a some sort of feeling that says otherwise does not magically mean the person is no longer the gender that is written into his or her DNA. It means that person needs a lot of prayers.
 
As others have said, I cannot begin to understand your situation. You clearly have a passion for Christ if you want to join the Servite order, though in my humble opinion, it would be very difficult for the head of an order to allow you to live in a community where, as you said, might become a temptation for others.

There may not be an answer in papal documents concerning your specific case. The best you might find is that all people, irrelevant of their biochemistry or sexual tendencies, are children of God and they deserve the respect and love that the Church has to offer. The abbot or abbess of a monastery would likely not entertain your request, as hard as that may be to hear, because the possibility of introducing an occasion of sin would be something the head of the community would need to protect against.

It seems like you have an opportunity. In this age where sexuality, gender, lust, love, and desire are so confused, you have a voice. If you are so inclined, perhpas you could form your own lay order, or movement, or something unique that would gather persons of similar struggles who want to help the poor, or guide others in the way of purity, or pray for souls. I think that St. Francis saw the poor and it motivated him to live in poverty - all part of God’s divine plan. I think that Opus Dei was formed to help lay people, who hungered for spirituality, find a spiritual life.

I often wish there were more people willing to explore this kind of work. to organize in prayer and do good works, to address the issues of this age. As one poster said, Lust is a constant battle. I know that fight well - wouldn’t it be wonderful to wear a scapular of purity and follow a daily routine of prayer to address this. Maybe you and I and all of us could do such a great work…
 
There is no public policy on transgender persons in religious orders but from news reports over the past dozen years it is clear there is a policy against it. I have been assured that those charged with admitting people to the orders have been charged with excluding transsexuals to avoid any embarrassment to the church concerning the segregation of genders. There may be an opportunity as a hermit since that role is non-gender specific.
It’s important to remember that god created all of us just as we are. The fact that god has given you the body of one sex and the gender identity of another means that you are very uniquely ‘blessed’ and may have an equally unique mission in life. Regardless of your chromosomes or womb hormones or any medical interventions you have needed to survive in this world.
I pray that you find gods path for you and that you are blessed to find Catholics in your life who love you as Christ would without judging or blaming you.

May peace be with you,
 
2001: Response by Fr. William P. Saunders:
A reader of the Catholic Herald from Roseville, CA asked Father Saunders – a columnist from the magazine:

“I know a man who had a ‘sex change’ operation and is now a ‘woman.’ What moral teaching does the Church give on this subject?” 1,2

Father Saunders quoted a Vatican II document titled: “Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World.” It stated that:

“Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day.”

When applied to transsexuality, the document implies that a person with GID must accept their body as it is. Surgically modifying one’s body would be a serious sin.

He also quotes Paul in 1 Corinthians 6:19:

“What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?”

The implication is that one’s body is not one’s own to be changed at will.

Finally, he quotes the Catholic Catechism, item 2297:

“Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reason, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.”

The process of sexual reassignment involves major changes to the persons body. For a male-to-female (MTF) transsexual, this involves removal of the penis, testicles, and scrotum. It involves hormone treatment and perhaps surgery to enlarge the breasts, removing part of the Adam’s apple, and/or changing the shape of her face. For a female-to-male (FTM) transsexual it involves the surgical removal of the breasts, uterus, ovaries, and hormone treatment, Fr. Sanders refers to this as:

“… a radical and grotesque mutilation of the body…To destroy organs purposefully that are healthy and functioning, and to try to create imitation organs which will never have the genuineness and functioning of authentic organs is gross and lacks charity. Such surgery which purposefully destroys the bodily integrity of the person must be condemned.”

For matters like marriage and ordination, the church considers only the genetic gender of the individual. Thus a MTF transsexual could not marry a man, even if they were able to obtain a marriage license, because the church would regard this as a same-sex marriage of two males. A MTF transexual might not be able to marry a woman even though the church considered them as an opposite-sex couple. The church has refused to marry some couples in the past who cannot conceive children. Similarly a FTM transsexual would not be eligible for consideration for ordination, no matter what his appearance, personality, talents or knowledge are.

Fr. Saunders notes that transsexualism appears to stem from psychological development, and thus should be treated by psychotherapy. He may not be aware that this has been tried countless thousands of times, apparently without a single successful outcome.

**During late 2008, Pope Benedict XVI said in a speech that our gender was a gift from the creator. He denounced those who would try to change it. He said: “It is a question here of faith in the Creator and of listening to the language of creation, the devaluation of which leads to the self-destruction of man and therefore to the destruction of the same work of God.” **
 
Our “theology of gender” is based upon the assumption that there are only two genders. After all, God only created two genders in Genesis. This was the state of our knowledge about gender until the second half of the 20th century. It wasn’t until the 1970’s that I was exposed to the notion of transgendered persons, heard about elective surgery for transexuals, and found that 5 - 10% of the human population was gay/lesbian.

In the 50’s, homosexuals were still being sent to mental hospitals, jails or physicatrists to be cured. It wasn’t until the book “The Normal Male Homosexual” came out that the first glimmerings of what was known as “sexual abberancy” started to be seen as just another form of sexuality.

Any health professional who has ever worked on a pediatric ward has experienced babies and children who are considered sexual “deviants.” Little girls who have been circumcised and raised as a boy and so on. Usually, the transgendered baby was “assigned” a gender and had a series of surgeries to “correct” their problem of having two genders. Then at puberty they were started on hormones to match their assigned gender. The physical choice made by parents and physicians may not have agreed with the child’s own later assessment of their gender.

It was not until we understood about XX and XY chromosomes, were able to do ultrasounds and discovered some men with ovaries and uteruses, that medical science began to notice and accept that there were not just two genders in the human population.

The problem of the transgendered is not just a Church problem it is still a problem for society which has trouble accepting the fact of their existence. Society and the Church has known about homosexuality for far longer and still has difficulty knowing what to do with them.

Some Bishops in the United States will accept a homosexual man into the seminary to study for the Priesthood. He is expected to live the voiw of chastity just as any other Priest. I would assume, however, that the Priest would not “announce” his sexual orientation from the pulpit. But I don’t know that.

I would think that a transexual could also find a diocese and seminary to accept him. The issue of sexual activity is moot since the vow of chastity would also apply to the transgendered.

The Church and society are still centuries away from accepting and understanding that there are not just two genders in this world of ours. Since God does not make mistakes, or as AA says “God don’t make junk,” the homosexual and the transgendered are also children of God and to be respected as such.

The rules for sexual behavior, regardless of orientation, hormones or DNA remain the same. Outside of marriage, a person is to be chaste. Period. No matter how hard that is to do for everyone. For some, that is a lifelong cross. For others, it is a temporary situation until marriage.

Just my opinion of course.
 
Some Bishops in the United States will accept a homosexual man into the seminary to study for the Priesthood. He is expected to live the voiw of chastity just as any other Priest. I would assume, however, that the Priest would not “announce” his sexual orientation from the pulpit. But I don’t know that.

I would think that a transexual could also find a diocese and seminary to accept him. The issue of sexual activity is moot since the vow of chastity would also apply to the transgendered.

Just my opinion of course.
You are wrong. The Church will not allow the trans-gendered to marry and will not allow then to be ordained.

In the case of homosexuals please read

CONGREGATION FOR CATHOLIC EDUCATION

Instruction
Concerning the Criteria for the Discernment of Vocations
with regard to Persons with Homosexual Tendencies
in view of their Admission to the Seminary and to Holy Orders

The Supreme Pontiff Benedict XVI, on 31 August 2005, approved this present Instruction and ordered its publication.

Rome, 4 November 2005, Memorial of St Charles Borromeo, Patron of Seminaries

Cardinal Zenon Grocholewski
Prefect

Extract from the document:

"In the light of such teaching, this Dicastery, in accord with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, believes it necessary to state clearly that the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question[9], cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called "gay culture."

Full document at vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html
 
You are wrong. Extract from the document:

"In the light of such teaching, this Dicastery, in accord with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, believes it necessary to state clearly that the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question[9], cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called "gay culture."

Full document at vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html
I may be wrong from the point of view of the “rules,” but I happen to know, personally, a gay man who is a practicing priest. He lived openly as a gay man before applying to the seminary, told the bishop as well as the admissions committee of the seminary that he was gay, and he was accepted into seminary and was ordained a Priest. I was at his ordination. It happens.

Remember that every Bishop is in total control of what happens in his diocese. His word is law. If he is willing to accept gays into seminaries, they will be accepted, no matter what the rules say. Just last month (or was it this month) a Bishop in Australia resigned after a decade of being asked to resign by the Vatican for constant violation of the rules. In the meanwhile, if you read the articles about him, he had forbidden private confession among other things.

If everyone obeyed the rules of the church we would not have excommunications, or widespread use of birth control, abortions (among Catholics), murder, child/elder abuse, robbery, adultery etc etc. Just because there is a rule about something does not mean someone will not violate it.
 
I may be wrong from the point of view of the “rules,” but I happen to know, personally, a gay man who is a practicing priest. He lived openly as a gay man before applying to the seminary, told the bishop as well as the admissions committee of the seminary that he was gay, and he was accepted into seminary and was ordained a Priest. I was at his ordination. It happens.

Remember that every Bishop is in total control of what happens in his diocese. His word is law. If he is willing to accept gays into seminaries, they will be accepted, no matter what the rules say. Just last month (or was it this month) a Bishop in Australia resigned after a decade of being asked to resign by the Vatican for constant violation of the rules. In the meanwhile, if you read the articles about him, he had forbidden private confession among other things.

If everyone obeyed the rules of the church we would not have excommunications, or widespread use of birth control, abortions (among Catholics), murder, child/elder abuse, robbery, adultery etc etc. Just because there is a rule about something does not mean someone will not violate it.
I agree that some will slip through the net either because they have lied or have not been completely truthful or some bishops might simply not care.
 
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