What official infallible declaration of any Pope on morals would you as a non-Catholic Christian object to and why?

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kd5glx said:
I do not really know how to put my thoughts into words here.

I would think that since we are a True Family first and a Kingdom of God then the only wiggle room is the free will our Father has given us to object His truth or not.

The Truth of God will never be in season to the worldly or to those who are just barely alive in Christ. But I feel the Church would fail us if it did not proclaim things like the Immaculate Conception as dogmatic.

I would also be interested in if you feel like it to understand why you would think the Immaculate Conception would allow wiggle room?
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How would the Church fail us if it allowed people to not believe in the Immaculate Conception of Mary? If I am faithful and follow the sacraments, yet do not believe that Mary herself was sinless, why does that matter? How does a disbelief in the Assumption (or indifference at whether it happened or not) make a significant difference?

Have the Orthodox failed their flock in this? They haven’t dogmatized such a concept, even though many do believe in it (if I recall correctly).

I don’t think the Immaculate Conception itself as a concept allows wiggle room, but I’m saying that maybe the Church should allow wiggle room on whether to believe it or not. It’s not something even close along the lines of Nestorianism or Monophysitism, which could threaten our very conception of Jesus.

I’m just trying to understand the Catholic Church better.
 
FabiusMaximus said:
How would the Church fail us if it allowed people to not believe in the Immaculate Conception of Mary? .
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All I am about to write is simply based on the (concept) of the infalible nature of the Church.
If someone does not believe in the concept just go with it to understand my thinking.

I feel that the Church would fail us by after finding this Truth thru the Holy Spirit and then not declaring it absolute because of hardships the Church may receive or MY own personal feelings about it.
 
kd5glx said:
Just for further reflection, would these kind of issues really be just the Pope projecting his opinion?
I personally have seen enough support for all the ones you mention not only in Scripture and Tradition but in life itself with Family and acquaintances to justify their immorality. In my humble opinion.
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I was merely saying what I’ve heard some Protestants disagree with. I’m agnostic so am not sure how much theological justification they have for doing so.

I’m aware the position on re-marriage and contraception is not just the Pope expressing his opinion, and that traditionally the Anglican Church - for example - also opposed both, and am aware of Jesus in the Gospels (I forget which one) considering re-marriage after divorce t be adultery.

My mum and dad couldn’t get married in an Anglican church in the 1980s (I’m not sure if they really wanted to though) because Dad had been married before (things have changed now).
 
mardukm said:
You did not need a list to point that out, so why do we need one?. We can discuss the matter without recourse to a list.

Blessings,
Marduk
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I didn’t really point anything out, just asked a question. Are there any official infallible teachings of the church on morality? From what I understand, infallibility is severely restricted to just a few things like the Immaculate Conception.

Understand that I’m not trying to question if something is infallible or not. Just wondering what sort of things have actually been declared, by the church, to be infallible.
 
cerad2 said:
For example, is the prohibition on masturbation an infallible teaching?
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I do not see how masturbation could be anything other than immoral. Maybe someone could do this without having lust in their heart but I myself do not see how. And I do not see how I could attempt to do it With the Trinity always surrounding me and within me, not to mention the entire Church Triumphant.
 
Well I am working across the pond these days and it’s getting dark out so I would like to thank you and will check back here in the morning.

One Last thing before I go:
Family, With God Himself as True Father. That to me is the key.

God Bless.
Goodnight.
 
FabiusMaximus said:
I’m sure the Church has its reasons to believe in those issues. But why can’t it take an official viewpoint without making them ‘absolutely irreversible’ or allowing wiggle room among its members?
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In case you haven’t noticed, Catholics easily manufacture their own “wiggle room”.
Many Catholics I know don’t even know the Immaculate Conception refers to Mary - they think it refers to Jesus. I just don’t see how the Catholic faith is ‘reduced’ if that becomes a more optional belief than a mandated one.
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Dogma can’t be denied. There are no rules or laws that state that Catholics must perfectly understand dogmas.
 
I’m pretty sure this quote won’t qualify as an “official proclamation, or an infallible dogma” or whatever, I don’t know if they have to be wearing the big hat to make their statements official, but it’s extremely disturbing to me that it was uttered at all by anybody, let alone a pope.

In the year 1303, before five archbishops, 22 bishops, many monks and friars, Boniface VIII jeered habitually at religion and morals, and made this remarkable statement: "There was no Jesus Christ and the Eucharist is just flour and water. Mary was no more a virgin than my own mother, and there is no more harm in adultery than in rubbing your hands together."
 
mardukm said:
I don’t get the point of such a list either.

Blessings
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For questions that arise like this. 😉 Certain RC theologians categorize different documents/encyclicals/what have you as being infallible. What is and what isn’t? 🤷 And why?

In Christ,
Andrew
 
I’ve never understood, Andrew, why the Catholic Church doesn’t have a list of infallible documents? How is a Catholic to know? The many different opinions as to what is and isn’t infallible on this board alone is a good testament to how confusing the whole thing is.
Harpazo said:
For questions that arise like this. 😉 Certain RC theologians categorize different documents/encyclicals/what have you as being infallible. What is and what isn’t? 🤷 And why?

In Christ,
Andrew
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Harpazo said:
For questions that arise like this. 😉 Certain RC theologians categorize different documents/encyclicals/what have you as being infallible. What is and what isn’t? 🤷 And why?

In Christ,
Andrew
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It’s harder to hit a moving target.
 
Dear brother Andrew,
Harpazo said:
For questions that arise like this. 😉 Certain RC theologians categorize different documents/encyclicals/what have you as being infallible. What is and what isn’t? 🤷
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This is a purely academic exercise. I don’t know why people are making a big deal out of it. I can imagine why Catholics would want such a list, but can you explain why non-Catholics make a big deal of it? What possible concern is it to non-Catholics?
And why?
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I wouldn’t know. Because it satisfies their intellectual curiosity?🤷 Whatever the reason people have for attempting to give such a list, it doesn’t apply to me, nor I imagine to most Catholics. The run-of-the-mill Catholic, when he/she has a question about a particular point of faith, will just normally inquire about that particular question. And when that question is answered, life goes back to normal.

Then there are those who are overly intellectual, who seem to think that without such a list, then their only option is to jump off a bridge in frustration.:rolleyes:

Then there are those whose only purpose is to incite a needless and artifical doubt in others just because such a list does not exist. I think this latter group are being dishonest and immoral. Such a list obviously does not matter to them, and their demand for it is senseless.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
mardukm said:
This is a purely academic exercise. I don’t know why people are making a big deal out of it. I can imagine why Catholics would want such a list, but can you explain why non-Catholics make a big deal of it? What possible concern is it to non-Catholics?
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This thread may be an academic exercise, but this topic isn’t. As far as non-Catholics are concerned…well, Andrew asked the question, Gurney seconded the observation, and I most certainly share their confusion. Two of the three people mentioned are ex-Catholics.

This is not an academic matter.
 
Dear brother Dzheremi,
dzheremi said:
This thread may be an academic exercise, but this topic isn’t. As far as non-Catholics are concerned…well, Andrew asked the question, Gurney seconded the observation, and I most certainly share their confusion. Two of the three people mentioned are ex-Catholics.

This is not an academic matter.
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Asking for examples of infallible teaching on morals is germane to the OP. Asking for some kind of official llist or questioning why there isn’t one is not - that is just academic.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
With a possible soon-to-be ex :confused:😃
dzheremi said:
This thread may be an academic exercise, but this topic isn’t. As far as non-Catholics are concerned…well, Andrew asked the question, Gurney seconded the observation, and I most certainly share their confusion. **Two of the three people mentioned are ex-Catholics. **This is not an academic matter.
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Sure. I left you out of it so as to not put you anywhere you wouldn’t be comfortable being categorized, but that’s up to you. 🙂
 
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