What official infallible declaration of any Pope on morals would you as a non-Catholic Christian object to and why?

[Mickey]

I Heres’s New Advent and the CC specifically on Original Sin.

I asked for a source from the Early Church Fathers…and you give me New Advent? If you cannot provide it…just say so.

 

[Mickey]

Mickey…

Really!

St. Paul says we all have different gifts…same goes for theologians…and the fruit is always Jesus Christ!

St. Paul also says in Romans that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. I do not see him making any exceptions for St Mary at conception.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I asked for a source from the Early Church Fathers…and you give me New Advent? If you cannot provide it…just say so.

The link supplies the info “you” seek. Now you insist a source isn’t provided when we we just provided it?

You’ll have to put the effort in reading. I get it you have other things to do. Such would be the case with everyone. You asked for a source of early church fathers, it was given. Whom or what you disagree with I cannot know. To continue to provide information to which you constantly insist doesn’t exist or you don’t believe becomes a lesson in ignorance.

The bottom line is you arrived here with a preconceived notion that aspects of the CC path are false. It would become “your” responsibility to show exactly how. No different than with the belief of the EO in this regards. What you “do” believe can and has been summed up quickly in threads recently here. The one Jam posted comes to mind immediate. Its no-one’s responsibility to seach for points “you” disagree with.

Of course I could add another which the link doesn’t provide and that would be your favorite…Athanasius And then as with Irenaeus you say I disagree:shrug:

Its not just a matter to agree or disagree with a specific in the CC doctrine of “Original Sin”. YOU don’t agree with the ENTIRE CONCEPT:shrug: Really then for me the POINT is that others reading this DO GAIN “something” out of it. I understand “your” belief remains with the EO. From here the correct path is to state what exactly you don’t believe. The general information as to HOW Catholics arrive at what they believe “is” provided.

Never the less the links from New Advent provide a background for those reading who have no idea what is being talked about or limited understanding. In this case the CC on “Original Sin”, Or the previous with the IC. Or how the two interact. To me its just good sense to provide the entire contents of the Doctrine, especially in regards to other’s seriously seeking to comprehend. Instead of being “limited” to CAF members “understanding” of it.

Gary

 

[Mickey]

The link supplies the info “you” seek.

I don’t see it.

To continue to provide information to which you constantly insist doesn’t exist or you don’t believe becomes a lesson in ignorance.

You are not providing what is requested…so much for lessons in ignorance.

The bottom line is you arrived here with a preconceived notion that aspects of the CC path are false.

The bottom line is: The ECF’s and early Church history do not support this innovation…and you cannot show that it does.

It would become “your” responsibility to show exactly how.

Not at all. You are saying that it existed from the beginning. The burden of proof is on you to show us.

Never the less the links from New Advent provide a background for those reading who have no idea what is being talked about or limited understanding.

New Advent is not the best of sources.

 

[KathleenGee]

Mickey…

You don’t see it in Scripture???

The Angel Gabriel appeared before Mary, ‘Blessed art you among all women!’

The first would be…she is blessed in a way that no other women are…and to become the Mother of the Savior…who saved us from sin.

The greatest blessing we could have as human beings would be blessed with no inclination to sin, no constitution to receive sin!!!

 

[Mickey]

Kathleen…

You don’t see it in Scripture???

The IC? No.

The Angel Gabriel appeared before Mary, ‘Blessed art you among all women!’

Indeed. She is blessed among women! The Orthodox Church has no greater veneration for a saint than we have for Our Panaghia! We have such honor and respect for her that we are not inclined to call her “Mary” (like the protestants and Roman Catholics). We usually refer to her as “Panaghia” (all Holy One), “Most Holy Theotokos”, or at the very least “St Mary.”

But Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition tells us nothing of this doctrine of the IC that Rome has adopted.

 

[KathleenGee]

She was blessed because she had no sin, and she was found worthy to be the Mother of God.

There is no way she could be blessed upon her own, an exception to all women.

Mary does not have the same constitution as the rest of us.

Mary is God’s creation for His Son.

The Annunciation says it all in Scripture.

 

[Mickey]

She was blessed because she had no sin,

She had no sin because of her cooperation with grace through ascetism…not because she was spared at conception from original sin.

and she was found worthy to be the Mother of God.

Indeed.

There is no way she could be blessed upon her own,

Of course not. We do nothing on our own. It takes our cooperation with grace. We have free will.

Mary does not have the same constitution as the rest of us.

Saint Mary is our great example.

The Annunciation says it all in Scripture.

And it surely does not say anything about the IC.

 

[KathleenGee]

Hi Mickey,

Here are some sources: www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp

Then on ancient texts…and you can already see Mary with the Infant Jesus in frescos in the ancient catacombs…she was already being especially venerated…

Addressing Mary as immaculate, beyond St. Iraenaes,

We have the Proto Evangelium of James, 100 AD

                   St. Ephraem the Syrian, 350 AD

                   St. Sophronius of Jerusalem, 638 AD

                   St. John Damascene, 645-750 AD

                  Origen, 230 AD

                  Theodatus of Ancyra, 350 AD

                  Maximum of Turin, 424 AD.

                  Tertullian as well

I do not have at hand the practices of veneration towards Mary, except the frescos of the ancient catacombs. Mary’s intervention began in the second century, and has occurred every century then in the lives of countless Christians.

With all her help, there comes a time when the Church needs to acknowledge her special work for us. Her work for us has some thing to say more about Mary.

Mary is the one who truly makes our Church a family. Our Lord said at the Last Supper that He always prayed for unity … so that the world would believe.

The Roman Catholic Church has endured down through time as a witness of faith to the world, to invite the world, to inculturate it, and to explain truths of Who Jesus Christ is and His nature. We cannot separate Mary from Christ. And we cannot separate or make Mary anything less for Christ and His cause.

Subsequently, as I said, it took the Church almost 2000 years to fully comprehend and believe in Mary’s Immaculate Conception, more a hundred years after Mary appeared at Lourdes, declaring she is the Immaculate Conception.

So, if there is anything that is not debatable here, it took the Church a very, very long time to finally affirm and believe Mary free from original sin.

 

[KathleenGee]

So one just can’t say that ‘Rome’ just made up the Immaculate Conception … or that Mary did not appear at Lourdes…

 

[Mickey]

So one just can’t say that ‘Rome’ just made up the Immaculate Conception …

Rome has her reasons. It began to develop in the second millennium.

or that Mary did not appear at Lourdes…

There’s another thread for you…even Roman Catholics are not compelled to accept apparitions.

 

[Mickey]

Then on ancient texts…and you can already see Mary with the Infant Jesus in frescos in the ancient catacombs…she was already being especially venerated…

The Most Holy Theotokos is highly venerated…what’s your question?

Addressing Mary as immaculate, beyond St. Iraenaes,

The ancient Church uses the the word immaculate and holy and pure very often when referring to the Panagia. This does not mean that they are saying she was the Immaculate Conception. Try again.

I do not have at hand the practices of veneration towards Mary,

You seem to be confused. The issue is not with veneration…the issue is with the innovative doctrine of the IC.

Mary is the one who truly makes our Church a family.

Please…it would be better if you spoke more respectful about Our Lady…at least St Mary.

We cannot separate Mary from Christ.

And yet, the Latin Church often depicts her alone in photos or statues. In the East, you will rarely, if ever , see her depicted in Holy Icons without her Son, Jesus Christ.

Subsequently, as I said, it took the Church almost 2000 years to fully comprehend and believe in Mary’s Immaculate Conception,

It is not the teaching of the ancient Church.

 

[KathleenGee]

For a young girl to practice ascetism and sinlessness, and never sin again…where is the your theology in this??? What is the ascetic method she used?

I am afraid as a creature she could not do that.

Only God could make her thus.

About apparitions as such, we are not held to believe them…but when it comes to Lourdes…or even Fatima, we should. And one must also look at their fruit…these two sites have drawn millions and millions of pilgrims…certainly one must admit the work of the Holy Spirit is there…

I stay with Peter. The Rock of Peter is Christ’s sign of authority to the entire world, not just for the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Mickey]

For a young girl to practice ascetism and sinlessness, and never sin again…where is the your theology in this??? What is the ascetic method she used?

Oh you are surely joking, eh?

I am afraid as a creature she could not do that.

Unbelievable. You are prepared to say that she was miraculously spared from original sin at the moment of conception…but you are positive that she could not refrain from sinning by the grace of God. How very sad.

About apparitions as such, we are not held to believe them…but when it comes to Lourdes…or even Fatima, we should.

That is up to each individual Roman Catholic. I have no horse in that race.

I stay with Peter.

I stay with Christ and all the prophets, apostles and saints of the Church.

 

[KathleenGee]

No it is not said that she was not capable of avoiding sin without the grace of God…

And here again, the Angel Gabriel – not theologians – declared Mary, full of grace.

Grace permeated her entire being…and I rejoice with her that she is blessed among all women…only a work by God Himself could make a creature totally and completely full of grace that no sin could ever enter.

And yes, the Roman Catholic Church is with Christ, the saints,…and with you!!!

 

[Mickey]

No it is not said that she was not capable of avoiding sin without the grace of God…

That is what I said. She refrained from sin by the grace of God. She is the greatest ascetic…the great example to the human race.

And here again, the Angel Gabriel – not theologians – declared Mary, full of grace.

Yes. What is your point?

And yes, the Roman Catholic Church is with Christ, the saints,…and with you!!!

Well…I have some relatives who are in the RCC…so in a sense you are correct.

But my journey has taken me to the fulness of truth in the Holy Orthodox Church.

“Of all those born of women, there is not a single one who is perfectly holy, apart from the Lord Jesus Christ, Who in a special new way of immaculate birth-giving, did not experience earthly taint”
(St. Ambrose, Commentary on Luke, ch. 2).

 

[KathleenGee]

LOL…I think this indicates the trouble with the veil of language the Catholics and Orthodox have…

My reference to theologians…I was now excluding in particular RC theologians…that all we need is Angel Gabriel to introduce that Mary was full of grace…and that means she had no sin…but we do not see it as her work alone…she was created that way by God Himself to bear Christ.

The lady at church painting the icons is the daughter of RC and Orthodox parents. She thinks it is just politics…and we shouldn’t be divided.

Certainly, I would not consider this particular top necessary to have such a profound schism…

I do not think Mary likes us separated at all. I would cry if half my kids were fighting and didn’t show up at a family gathering at the banquet table…

Think about it…Our Blessed Mother is not seeing every one together at the banquet table of the Lord. He said He prayed for it…to be one…He already saw trouble coming…and He said if we did…then the world would believe…

That is heavy…if we were all united…it could be great conversion of this world!

 

[Cavaradossi]

The only thing that really kind of disturbs me with the idea that God made Mary to be the perfect creature, full of grace, is that it then obliterates Mary’s free will. Surely the Blessed Virgin Mary’s sinlessness was a product of both God’s grace and her will, but to say that she was granted a special grace from God which none of us can possible be given, i.e. the immaculate conception, undermines the otherwise special nature of her cooperation with God and makes her less of an example to us as to how we should conduct our lives in obedience of God.

 

[byeveryword]

The infallible declarations of a Pope is held to Faith and Morals and not the personal thoughts or feelings of the man himself. With that said I am curious as to what official infallible declaration that any Pope has ever made on Morals only,(Not on Faith) that any non-Catholic Chritian here on Catholic Answers Forum objects to and why? I am not really interested in debating you on any of the objections but really would like to learn some view points.

I heartily agree with all the Catholic church’s declarations that I am aware, except perhaps, a flip-flop on the condemnation of usury. The charging of any interest on a monetary loan seems to be contrary to the OT and NT for those who are followers of our Lord Jesus Christ.

There are consequences of the fall, God says, “cursed is the earth in thy work; with labor and toil shalt thou eat thereof all the days of thy life. Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herbs of the earth. In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return.” (Gen.3:16-19).

Making easy money is man’s attempt to avoid suffering. It is man’s attempt of saying 'No" to the labor and toil in earning one’s daily livelihood. The recent economic turmoil is the result of banking schemes gone amok.

 

[KathleenGee]

Mary could have said no to the Angel Gabriel…like all human beings, she and us were made in the image of God with free will and intellect.

I don’t think Mary would squander anything for her own acclaim…Our Lady of Grace has her hands open but down…heavy with graces from Christ to share.

Mary is, in Mother Theresa’s term, the transmitter of grace between God and us…she serves us as well…and she has no receptacle of sin…we can embrace her wholeheartedly.