What official infallible declaration of any Pope on morals would you as a non-Catholic Christian object to and why?

[rinnie]

Nice try. Is that another one of your logic diatribes? We know she was without sin. But you will not find support that she was spared from original sin in the womb (IC).

However, believe it or not, there were fathers who said that she did sin! St Basil, Sy John Chrysostom, and Origen come to mind. This further proves that the early Church had no such inkling of the modern day RC doctrine of the IC. Let us see what St John wrote since you have asked me to provide such evidence:

"That which I was lately saying, that when virtue is wanting all things are vain, this is now also pointed out very abundantly. For I indeed was saying, that age and nature, and to dwell in the wilderness, and all such things, are alike unprofitable, where there is not a good mind; but to-day we learn in addition another thing, that even to have borne Christ in the womb, and to have brought forth that marvellous birth, hath no profit, if there be not virtue. And this is hence especially manifest. “For while He yet talked to the people,” it is said, “one told Him, Thy mother and Thy brethren seek Thee. But He saith, who is my mother, and who are my brethren?” And this He said, not as being ashamed of His mother, nor denying her that bare Him; for if He had been ashamed of her, He would not have passed through that womb; but as declaring that she hath no advantage from this, unless she do all that is required to be done. **For in fact that which she had essayed to do, was of superfluous vanity; in that she wanted to show the people that she hath power and authority over her Son, imagining not as yet anything great concerning Him; whence also her unseasonable approach. **See at all events both her self- confidence and theirs. Since when they ought to have gone in, and listened with the multitude; or if they were not so minded, to have waited for His bringing His discourse to an end, and then to have come near; they call Him out, and do this before all, evincing a superfluous vanity, and wishing to make it appear, that with much authority they enjoin Him. And this too the evangelist shows that he is blaming, for with this very allusion did he thus express himself, “While He yet talked to the people;” as if he should say, What? was there no other opportunity? Why, was it not possible to speak with Him in private? (St John Chrysostom Homilies on the Gospel According to St. Matthew, 44)

Again another contradiction. You said we know she was without sin, Okay stop there, If she was without sin how could she have Original SIn then?

Or is orginal sin not Sin?

 

[rinnie]

Huh?
That would have removed her free will. This is why she is our great example. She shows us how to fight the passions being born with a fallen human nature.
No.
I do not adhere to concepts that were not handed to us from Scripture, the early Church/patristics, or the seven great councils.
Yes I did. She lived a sinless life in preparation for the Anunciation and the Nativity of Jesus Christ. But she was not spared from os at conception.

Oh my goodness, How in the world does God removng Original sin from the Blessed Mother remove her free will.

Okay Mick lets do it your way for a minute. What happed at my Baptism, Did God or did he not REMOVE ORiginal SIn from Me?

SO if what you are saying is True, I have no free will either then. Come on Mick this makes no sense.

 

[Mickey]

I gave a list of early Church Fathers and writers who held the tradition we hold today that Mary conceived without original sin, and that this conviction was lived out for almost 2,000 years.

Care to show excerpts of the quotes which corroborate this doctrine?

Theologians were continuing to debate this in the Roman Catholic Church in the 1800’s.

Because it was a new doctrine…unheard of in patristics, Scripture, or early councils.

When St. Bernadette asked who she was, what was her name, Mary looked up to heaven and said, ‘I am the Immaculate Conception’.

Not even Roman Catholics are expected to accept apparitions.

But Mary’s was different. And because she did not sin, she was assumed into heaven, following Our Lord. There is no burial place of the body of Mary.

She fell asleep before she was assumed. The Holy Orthodox Church calls it the Feast of the Dormition.

She was resurrected directly up into heaven. We do not know whether she died or was taken up alive…but she was resurrected directly into heaven because she had no sin…as Christ.

She fell asleep in the Lord. I believe the RCC teaches that also.

Mary is the link between humanity and Christ. She is unique.

She is the ladder.

 

[Mickey]

SO if what you are saying is True, I have no free will either then. Come on Mick this makes no sense.

Come on rin…you (or your parents) had free will to have you baptized.

 

[rinnie]

Come on rin…you (or your parents) had free will to have you baptized.

What in the world does that have to do with being free from Original Sin at my Baptism taking away my free will to sin?

Are you saying you are OSAS?

 

[PJM]

=KathleenGee;8076938]People need to pray alot about the role of Peter.

Hi,

While agreeing with you, may I ask WHY?

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Mickey]

You said we know she was without sin, Okay stop there, If she was without sin how could she have Original SIn then?

Did you know that there is original (ancestral) sin and actual sin?

 

[rinnie]

Care to show excerpts of the quotes which corroborate this doctrine?
Because it was a new doctrine…unheard of in patristics, Scripture, or early councils.
Not even Roman Catholics are expected to accept apparitions.
She fell asleep before she was assumed. The Holy Orthodox Church calls it the Feast of the Dormition.
She fell asleep in the Lord. I believe the RCC teaches that also.
She is the ladder.

Good Point, Actually Perfect.

Now explain to me this Mickey how could the Blessed Mother go to heaven BODY and SOUL if she had any kind of SIN???

The Church teaches that when we die that is why our body is left behind to turn back to dust because of our sin. Why did the Blessed Mother get away with it if she had sin.

Another contradiction of the word of God would you not say?

The reason she did not have her body turn to dirt was becasue she was sinless!!!

How can your Church agree that she went to heaven body and soul is she had original sin?

 

[rinnie]

Did you know that there is original (ancestral) sin and actual sin?

Um, Yeah Mickey. Original sin is what is forgiven at our baptism and actual sin is what we commit after our baptism and the reason we go to confession Mickey.

Come on Mickey.

 

[KathleenGee]

Mickey…

We see Mary as the short ladder to Christ. She is our companion, we unite ourselves with her, her graces and merits magnify ours in the Lord.

But with the names of those I gave you, all referred to Mary as immaculate…without sin.

And Mary and the Church both share the symbol of the Bride of Christ. She has made herself known for 2,000 years in the Latin Church. I do not know about the Orthodox Church.

The Roman Catholic Church bears witness to the truth to the world. And through time, we have come to know more about Mary, because she hides herself. She wants only Christ to be duly honored.

St. Louis de Montfort said that knowledge of Mary would be reserved for the latter days when Satan would rise up again to take many souls to perdition. We are coming to the end of the Age of Mary, this lasting for a period of several hundred years, and in it, along with the countless testimonies of so many Catholics, the Church has slowly moved to define her.

So it is timely that we have these dogmas.

I pray that all non-Catholics who visit here will pray to the Holy Spirit and desire to know more about Mary. It is through Mary we can come that closer to Christ. And she shares many of her graces with us. She is indeed the short ladder to heaven, and is always ready to help us see the way to heaven.

 

[Mickey]

“I say that the Virgin Mary could not be sanctified before Her conception, inasmuch as She did not exist. If, all the more, She could not be sanctified in the moment of Her conception by reason of the sin which is inseparable from conception, then it remains to believe that She was sanctified after She was conceived in the womb of her mother. This sanctification, if it annihilates sin, makes holy Her birth, but not Her conception. No one is given the right to be conceived in sanctity; only the Lord Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit, and He alone is holy from His very conception. Excluding Him, it is to all the descendants of Adam that must be referred that which one of them says of himself, both out of a feeling of humility and in acknowledgement of the truth: Behold I was conceived in iniquities (Ps. 50:7). How can one demand that this conception be holy, when it was not the work of the Holy Spirit, not to mention that it came from concupiscence? The Holy Virgin, of course, rejects that glory which, evidently, glorifies sin. She cannot in any way justify a novelty invented in spite of the teaching of the Church, a novelty which is the mother of imprudence, the sister of unbelief, and the daughter of light-mindedness.”
Bernard of Clairvaux

 

[rinnie]

Did you know that there is original (ancestral) sin and actual sin?

Which comes back to the question at bay. If she was stained with Original SIn how could she remain sinless? SHe would to have had sin at one time.

But if she REMAINED without SIN all of her life, which I may I add completely agree with, how could she remain sinless is she once had original sin.

I may be in a state of Grace at the moment Mickey, But I was never in a sinless state. I was born into Original sin. That means I was never sinless.

TO remain sinless means to be in the original state you were born in. She had to be born sinless to remain that way. She was. At the moment of her conception GOd stepped in and saved her from Original sin.

 

[rinnie]

“I say that the Virgin Mary could not be sanctified before Her conception, inasmuch as She did not exist. If, all the more, She could not be sanctified in the moment of Her conception by reason of the sin which is inseparable from conception, then it remains to believe that She was sanctified after She was conceived in the womb of her mother. This sanctification, if it annihilates sin, makes holy Her birth, but not Her conception. No one is given the right to be conceived in sanctity; only the Lord Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit, and He alone is holy from His very conception. Excluding Him, it is to all the descendants of Adam that must be referred that which one of them says of himself, both out of a feeling of humility and in acknowledgement of the truth: Behold I was conceived in iniquities (Ps. 50:7). How can one demand that this conception be holy, when it was not the work of the Holy Spirit, not to mention that it came from concupiscence? The Holy Virgin, of course, rejects that glory which, evidently, glorifies sin. She cannot in any way justify a novelty invented in spite of the teaching of the Church, a novelty which is the mother of imprudence, the sister of unbelief, and the daughter of light-mindedness.”
Bernard of Clairvaux

Mickey where is the Church disputing this. They never said she was conceived of the Holy Spriit. The CHurch teaches she was saved at the MOMENT of her conception, not conceived of the Holy Spirit. Only Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit.

Why do you keep bringing this up. The RCC agrees.

 

[Mickey]

But with the names of those I gave you, all referred to Mary as immaculate…without sin.

Immaculate, pure, and holy is language that has always been used to refer to the Most Holy and Immaculate Theotokos. It has nothing to do with the doctine of “Immaculate Conception”.

She has made herself known for 2,000 years in the Latin Church. I do not know about the Orthodox Church.

You may not know this, but our Churches were as one for about 1000 years until Rome split from the other four Patriarchates.

St. Louis de Montfort said that knowledge of Mary would be reserved for the latter days when Satan would rise up again to take many souls to perdition.

Isn’t he the one who refers to St Mary as “co-redeemer.”

We are coming to the end of the Age of Mary,

The age of Mary? Is this RC teaching?

 

[rinnie]

“I say that the Virgin Mary could not be sanctified before Her conception, inasmuch as She did not exist. If, all the more, She could not be sanctified in the moment of Her conception by reason of the sin which is inseparable from conception, then it remains to believe that She was sanctified after She was conceived in the womb of her mother. This sanctification, if it annihilates sin, makes holy Her birth, but not Her conception. No one is given the right to be conceived in sanctity; only the Lord Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit, and He alone is holy from His very conception. Excluding Him, it is to all the descendants of Adam that must be referred that which one of them says of himself, both out of a feeling of humility and in acknowledgement of the truth: Behold I was conceived in iniquities (Ps. 50:7). How can one demand that this conception be holy, when it was not the work of the Holy Spirit, not to mention that it came from concupiscence? The Holy Virgin, of course, rejects that glory which, evidently, glorifies sin. She cannot in any way justify a novelty invented in spite of the teaching of the Church, a novelty which is the mother of imprudence, the sister of unbelief, and the daughter of light-mindedness.”
Bernard of Clairvaux

Again let me repeat one more time to put this puppy to rest.’

No One ever said she was sanctified BEFORE her conception. The CHurch teaches it was at the MOMENT of her conception.

 

[rinnie]

Mickey my dear friend I gotto go mow some grass. Don’t miss me too much

 

[KathleenGee]

We live in a universal Church…

Bernard Clairvoux was one of those who contributed greatly to the spirituality of the Cross and the walk in perfection.

And remember, there were many theologians debating the whole issue of Mary’s immaculate conception well up into the 1800’s and on.

So we must trust in the Holy Spirit and His action at work in the Church and her dogmas.

Mary’s immaculate conception makes perfect sense to me.

With her free will, she could have denied God. Or she could have with her Fiat, Yes, then turned around and deny Christ…to care for other children as some protestants believe…chasing down her kids who inherited her original sin and took attention away from Our Lord…

No, Mary is a special creation.

 

[Mickey]

If she was stained with Original SIn how could she remain sinless?

Asceticism. That is why she is our great example.

She had to be born sinless to remain that way.

She was born with fallen human nature yet refrained from sinning her entire life by the grace of God…giving birth to our…and her saviour. This is why she is so highly honoured and venerated.

 

[Mickey]

And remember, there were many theologians debating the whole issue of Mary’s immaculate conception well up into the 1800’s and on.

Becuase it was an innovation.

Mary’s immaculate conception makes perfect sense to me.

That’s okay.

 

[Mickey]

Again let me repeat one more time to put this puppy to rest.’

No One ever said she was sanctified BEFORE her conception. The CHurch teaches it was at the MOMENT of her conception.

“I say that the Virgin Mary could not be sanctified before Her conception, inasmuch as She did not exist. If, all the more, She could not be sanctified in the moment of Her conception by reason of the sin which is inseparable from conception, then it remains to believe that She was sanctified after She was conceived in the womb of her mother. This sanctification, if it annihilates sin, makes holy Her birth, but not Her conception. No one is given the right to be conceived in sanctity; only the Lord Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit, and He alone is holy from His very conception. Excluding Him, it is to all the descendants of Adam that must be referred that which one of them says of himself, both out of a feeling of humility and in acknowledgement of the truth: Behold I was conceived in iniquities (Ps. 50:7). How can one demand that this conception be holy, when it was not the work of the Holy Spirit, not to mention that it came from concupiscence? The Holy Virgin, of course, rejects that glory which, evidently, glorifies sin. She cannot in any way justify a novelty invented in spite of the teaching of the Church, a novelty which is the mother of imprudence, the sister of unbelief, and the daughter of light-mindedness.”
Bernard of Clairvaux