What official infallible declaration of any Pope on morals would you as a non-Catholic Christian object to and why?

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That is not the IC.
Are you serious? You must have failed to read. Proof for the IC is Genesis. The IC is talking Mary, the connection the IC makes in Genesis is Eve.

This is from the link you stated you read.

Genesis 3:15
No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture. But the first scriptural passage which contains the promise of the redemption, mentions also the Mother of the Redeemer. The sentence against the first parents was accompanied by the Earliest Gospel (Proto-evangelium), which put enmity between the serpent and the woman: “and I will put enmity between thee and the woman and her seed; she (he) shall crush thy head and thou shalt lie in wait for her (his) heel” (Genesis 3:15). The translation “she” of the Vulgate is interpretative; it originated after the fourth century, and cannot be defended critically. The conqueror from the seed of the woman, who should crush the serpent’s head, is Christ; the woman at enmity with the serpent is Mary. God puts enmity between her and Satan in the same manner and measure, as there is enmity between Christ and the seed of the serpent. Mary was ever to be in that exalted state of soul which the serpent had destroyed in man, i.e. in sanctifying grace. Only the continual union of Mary with grace explains sufficiently the enmity between her and Satan. The Proto-evangelium, therefore, in the original text contains a direct promise of the Redeemer, and in conjunction therewith the manifestation of the masterpiece of His Redemption, the perfect preservation of His virginal Mother from original sin.
 
If Mary had original sin, and she was the new Eve…all the original sin would have to accumulate in her…

And then she’d have to wait for Christ to die on the cross…doesn’t make sense.

The truth is that Mary is full of grace, and no other woman is…God is the giver of grace, not any creature.

And we cannot ignore either the unity of belief of many concepts that began, that Tradition had carried on to present day beliefs.
 
Genesis 3:15
No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture.
Indeed.
therefore, in the original text contains a direct promise of the Redeemer, and in conjunction therewith the manifestation of the masterpiece of His Redemption, the perfect preservation of His virginal Mother from original sin.
Then he claims to offer proof? What’s up with that? Who is the author of this? This is not patristic. :confused:
 
The Word of God the Father became Flesh, not by a change or alteration of his own nature … but because having made the flesh taken from the body of the Virgin his own, one and the same subject is called Son, before the Incarnation as Word still incorporeal, and after the Incarnation as the same Word now embodied. That is why we say that the same subject is simultaneously both God and Man, not dividing him conceptually into a human being with a separate identity and God the Word also with a separate identity, that we may exclude any idea of two Sons, but acknowledging that one and the same subject is Christ and Son and Lord.
St Cyril of Alexandria
Here is Irenaeus from what period in History??

In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, “Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to your word.” But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise “they were both naked, and were not ashamed,” inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty. And it has, in fact, happened that the first compact looses from the second tie, but that the second tie takes the position of the first which has been cancelled. For this reason did the Lord declare that the first should in truth be last, and the last first. And the prophet, too, indicates the same, saying, “instead of fathers, children have been born unto you.” For the Lord, having been born “the First-begotten of the dead,” and receiving into His bosom the ancient fathers, has regenerated them into the life of God, He having been made Himself the beginning of those that live, as Adam became the beginning of those who die. Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.

Is he talking Eve/Mary/Genesis or is it my imagination? 👍

in book 5 chapter 19 we find St. Irenaeus writing :

A comparison is instituted between the disobedient and
sinning Eve and the Virgin Mary, her patroness. Various
and discordant heresies are mentioned.
  1. That the Lord then was manifestly coming to His own
    things, and was sustaining them by means of that
    creation which is supported by Himself, and was making
    a recapitulation of that disobedience which had
    occurred in connection with a tree, through the
    obedience which was [exhibited by Himself when He
    hung] upon a tree, [the effects] also of that deception
    being done away with, by which that virgin Eve, who
    was already espoused to a man, was unhappily misled
    – was happily announced, through means of the truth
    [spoken] by the angel to the Virgin Mary, who was [also
    espoused] to a man. For just as the former was led
    astray by the word of an angel, so that she fled from
    God when she had transgressed His word; so did the
    latter, by an angelic communication, receive the glad
    tidings that she should sustain (portaret) God, being
    obedient to His word. And if the former disobeyed God,
    the latter was persuaded to be obedient to God, in order
    that the Virgin Mary might become the patroness
    (advocata) of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human
    race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so
    is it rescued by a virgin; virginal disobedience having
    been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal
    obedience. For in the same way the sin of the first
    created man correction of the First-begotten, and the
    coming of the serpent is conquered by the
    harmlessness of the dove, those bonds being unloosed
    by which we had been fast bound to death.
Is it not odd that Catholics are criticized for inventing doctrines about Mary when the evidence shows that the Catholic teachings on Mary are indeed Biblical and the teachings are found very early on(Second Century) in the Church. You can’t blame Constantine for this one folks. The Church has always held that Mary had a special role in the salvation of mankind. She undid what Eve had done through obedience. She truly is the “Second Eve”.

From Discover the Faith web sight!

SECOND CENTURY:thumbsup:
 
Then he claims to offer proof? What’s up with that? Who is the author of this? This is not patristic. :confused:
Its NEW ADVENT talking about the IC and where’s YOUR quote from? That btw “once again” in this thread is “cut off” before the point is made…LOL 🤷
 
My dear rinnie. I am not in direct conflict. I am sorry that you cannot understand.

It is not natural nor logical to impute an immaculatey conceived state upon the Holy Virgin. This notion sets her apart from mankind according to nature. It removes her humanity.
It does not remove her humanity. Yes it does indeed set her apart from ever single Human Woman alive, to this I agree. Not only agree it is the word of God.

Blessed are YOU AMONG women and Blessed the the fruit of they womb JESUS.

I do understand Mickey. Mary was SAVED from ALL sin from the moment of her conception. As far as free will, she never had it taken away.

But we are talking about GOD MICKEY, HE KNEW what Mary would do and what Mary would say LONG before it was ever said. HE IS GOD.

Just like he knows what we have done and will continue to do till our death. But it takes nothing away from free will.

Our Dear Lord SAVED her from ALL Sin. SHe had to be comepletely free from ALL sin to be have DIVNIE WISDOM within her womb.

It is written Mickey Wisdom will not neter a malicious soul NOR DWEEL in a Body SUBJECT to sins.

Our Lord Jesus dwelled in the womb of the Blessed Mother. She her BODY nor SOUL could be subjected to sin.

How do you get around this Mickey? You are correct I DO NOT understand.:confused:
 
The IC taught as the IC wasn’t a dogma of faith nor an entire concept in which case the Saint you quoted would be correct in the 12th century Mick. Though I do believe he overlooks the independance of the teachings of the early church fathers.

We addressed most of this in previous pages here? The 12th century is actually very accurate from what we talked about last few pages.

And the darn apparitions keep happening. I"m starting to wonder… Hey, theres an ABC special on them this week on primetime:thumbsup:

Idol worship is another topic Pelikan spends a chapter or so on. Another “misconception” since idol worship could only mean evil.

Gary
Gary,
I watched that prime time special last night. Not sure I understand all of it; but it was very interesting. 🙂

Anna
 
But she was not immaculately conceived. 👍
Mickey who ever claimed she was immaculately conceived? That is not what the Immaculate Conception is. SHe was immaculated saved from SIN at the moment of her conception

No one ever deined that she had a Human Mother and Father. What the CHurch teaches is that she was SAVED from SIn that is what the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION is. The divine GOd stepping in and not letting any sin touch her body or soul.

She was immaculately saved not conceived.
 
But she was not immaculately conceived. 👍
Your right that wasn’t in reference to the first part of the IC but the second part.

Yet when we speak about Mary conceived without sin? Its not a new concept either.

Here its already being written about…

Saint Ephrem the Syrian (d. 373), a doctor of the Church, composed this beautiful hymn:

You alone and your Mother
Code:
  are more beautiful than any others;
For there is no blemish in you,
Code:
  nor any stains upon your Mother.
Who of my children
Code:
  can compare in beauty to these?
Augustine…

On the issue of Mary’s sinlessness and fullness of grace, Saint Augustine (d. 430) wrote:

With the exception of the holy Virgin Mary, in whose case, out of respect for the Lord, I do not wish there to be any further question as far as sin is concerned, since how can we know what great abundance of grace was conferred on her to conquer sin in every way, seeing that she merited to conceive and bear him who certainly had no sin at all?

Many other early Christians bore witness to Mary’s freedom from sin, a freedom that allowed her to embrace wholeheartedly the Father’s unique mission for her with complete openness. For example, Saint Gregory of Nazianzen (d. 390), Saint Gregory of Nyssa (d. 395), Saint Sophronius (d. 638), and Saint John Damascene (d. c. 749) among others taught that Mary was preserved from all stain of sin.

Saint Severus (d. 538), Bishop of Antioch in the sixth century, reflected on Mary in light of Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture: “She [Mary] … formed part of the human race, and was of the same essence as we, although she was pure from all taint and immaculate.

Saint Ambrose (d. 379), another early Church Father, referred to Mary as “free of every stain of sin.”

Saint Andrew of Crete (d. 740) explained that the Redeemer chose “in all nature this pure and entirely Immaculate Virgin.”

Thus, from the early centuries of the Church, Mary was seen as unique in her sinlessness.
 
He was also completely divine…remember? This is a great mystery.
Yes Jesus is Divine but that does not effect the logic.

Your premise
If Mary is human she must have had orignial sin.
Therefore
If Jesus is human He must have had original sin
These sentences are logical statments but FALSE.

God can and did preserve Mary from all sin.
 
Yes it does indeed set her apart from ever single Human Woman alive, to this I agree.
She is set aside because of her “yes” to the angel Gabriel. She is the all-holy Mother of God. Yet she was as human as any other woman.
Mary was SAVED from ALL sin from the moment of her conception.
No.
But we are talking about GOD MICKEY, HE KNEW what Mary would do and what Mary would say LONG before it was ever said.
Are you saying that free will is meaningless? Are you promoting Calvinism?
Our Dear Lord SAVED her from ALL Sin.
She most certainly was sinless. But she was not spared from os at conception.
It is written Mickey Wisdom will not neter a malicious soul NOR DWEEL in a Body SUBJECT to sins.
What is the meaning of “neter” and “dweel?”
I DO NOT understand.
You may never understand. Christ took His humanity from the Virgin Mary. Falleness is part of our humanity. Yet he was also completey Divine. This is a great mystery. It is called the hypostatic union. St Mary’s human nature was not modified.
 
She is set aside because of her “yes” to the angel Gabriel. She is the all-holy Mother of God. Yet she was as human as any other woman.
No.
Are you saying that free will is meaningless? Are you promoting Calvinism?QUOTE]

Lets put it into logical statement again.

Your understanding
If God know what a person is going to do then they have no free will.

This is a false statement.
The truth is
Because God knew that Mary would say yes and preserved her from sin, did not remove her free will. God knew that of her own free will she would say yes
 
Mickey what are you talking about. Are you saying that because Jesus knows what we are going to do ever before we do it that takes away our free will? Again Mickey you are not making sense?

Jesus knowing what we will choose because he is God and can see the future does not change free will.:confused:🤷
 
Yes Jesus is Divine but that does not effect the logic.
Eve came into being via direct creation from God, whilst St Mary was born of a woman in a fallen world.** It is not natural nor logical to impute an immaculatey conceived state upon the Holy Virgin. This notion sets her apart from mankind according to nature. It removes her humanity.**
God can and did preserve Mary from all sin.
He did by grace and her free will…not at conception. It is not a teaching of the ancient Church and it is not patristically supported.
 
She is set aside because of her “yes” to the angel Gabriel. She is the all-holy Mother of God. Yet she was as human as any other woman.
No.
Are you saying that free will is meaningless? Are you promoting Calvinism?
She most certainly was sinless. But she was not spared from os at conception.
What is the meaning of “neter” and “dweel?”
You may never understand. Christ took His humanity from the Virgin Mary. Falleness is part of our humanity. Yet he was also completey Divine. This is a great mystery. It is called the hypostatic union. St Mary’s human nature was not modified.
Enter dwell typing too fast:blush:
 
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