M
Mickey
Guest
It seems you have trouble differentiating between original sin and actual sin.
What official infallible declaration of any Pope on morals would you as a non-Catholic Christian object to and why?
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M
Mickey
Guest
Nope.
“Of all those born of women, there is not a single one who is perfectly holy, apart from the Lord Jesus Christ, Who in a special new way of immaculate birthgiving, did not experience earthly taint” (St. Ambrose, Commentary on Luke, ch. 2).
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PJM
Guest
M
Mickey
Guest
These discussions can tend to go round and round. People become weary. It does not mean that they concede. Also, it can get tedious to respond to so many posts because non-Roman Catholics are vastly out-numbered here.
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PJM
Guest
Hi Mickey, can you be more precise on where I can find this T. A. quote. It seems COMPLETELY out of character from what I have read. Also I’m not sure these are actually your views Mickey; or your comments on them?
Trying to apply human reason to sublime mysteries is NEVER going to result in TRUTH and right understanding. We are not gods nor does God think as we do. [Isa.55: 7-8]. Consider carefully these [passages] Isa.29: 16 ” You turn things upside down! Shall the potter be regarded as the clay; that the thing made should say of its maker, “He did not make me”; or the thing formed say of him who formed it, “He has no understanding”? … Isa.45: 9 "Woe to him who strives with his Maker, an earthen vessel with the potter! Does the clay say to him who fashions it,
What are you making'? or Your work has no handles’?” … Isa.64: 8 “Yet, O LORD, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou art our potter; we are all the work of thy hand.”It was made a Dogma because such are Inspired and Direct by the Holy Spirit. Review the process for better understanding. Thomas was not; is not POPE and does not have the same level of GRACE, Guidance and Prptection given to our Popes.
MARY HAD TO BE CONCEIVED AND BORN W/O ANY SIN [ORIGINAL INCLUDED] IN ORDER TO BE THE MOTHER OF A PERFECT GOD: MADE MAN. God neither COULD nor would allow Jesus to be born of a SINFUL women. IMPOSSIBLE! Can God this? OF COURSE GOD CAN.
Christ is Mary’s Savior in a totally unique, necessary and mysterious manner. Christ is [was] Mary’s savior BEFORE Mary herself was conceived and Jesus was born. Remember to God TIME DOES NOT EXIST. “God is the Alpha and Omega,” always was; Is, and shall always be. It is God [Jesus the second Person of the Trinity] that all salvation flows. Because God choose to become human and remain God; God who KNOWS ALL, Saved Mary before; NOT after as it was then already completed per God’s Will.
A Perfect God simply cannot be born form an imperfect mother. CANNOT. We can; and do know this with absolute certitude because it is a defined DOGMA of the RCC and such cannot [Jn.14:16-17 , Jn.17: 15-19, Mt. 16-19 and John 20:21-22] be is error. AMEN!
God Bless,
M
Mickey
Guest
I had the quote in my files from long ago. I do not own the compendium. However, I am aware that Thomas at first believed in the IC…and then did not for almost 20 years…and then did again. It shows that even post schism RC theologians and doctors could not come to terms with this innovation.
“The Blessed Virgin did indeed contract original sin.”
[Thomas Aquinas *Summa theologiae IIIa, q. 27, a. 2, ad 2]
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rinnie
Guest
Okay Mickey let me explain it to you.It seems you have trouble differentiating between original sin and actual sin.
Original sin is the sin that we have because Of the sin of Adam and Eve. WE are born with it, It is wiped away at our BAPTISM. We usually do not have ACTUAL sin because we are about 3 to 4 days old at our baptism. Original SIn is the sin that the Blessed Mother was saved from at the MOMENT of her Conception. God saved her from it, he saved us when we are Baptised.
Actual sin is what we commit after our Baptism and what we need to confess. We don’t confess original sin.
Venial sin is the sin that we do not have to go to a Priest for, we can but if we die in venial sin we are okay. We are still in the Grace of God. We are not removed from him by his Grace but we are not in perfect Grace either.
Mortal sin. Oh yes mortal sin is when we are no longer in the Good Grace of GOd it means we have lost his saving Grace and are in a state of MORTAL SIN. You Have to go to a Priest in order to be removed from this sin. You die in it and you are, excuse my language, but screwed.
All 4 types are the types of sin. Mortal and venial are actual because we actually committed them.
We know that the Blessed Mother HAD to be SAVED from original sin because sin is sin. It took Christ to come and release us actually from Original sin. But because of who she was and what she was do, she was saved on the merit of the grace of her Son. God saved her and made it possible that no kind of sin could touch her. That is why she is the PERFECT EVE. If she had the stain of Original sin she could not be sinless now could she. Defiled means as I said never had the Stain of SIN.
Now you do not understand that when you are in a state of SIN you are removed from being in a state of PERFECT GRACE.
Well now you know. IF we fall from GRACE that means we are IN SIN. Hope I cleared up your confusion.
Hey Mick, I gotto go feed my goats!!
Then go work on my other house for the weekend, the rental that needs everything PLUS the kitchen sink. But I think I will take the goats
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rinnie
Guest
No Mick it just shows how it took time for this truth to be explained. And it took the Church which is the pillar of truth to do so.
But it is the truth, has always been believed because its the truth. But Mickey just because people have a difficult time understanding something does not mean its not true.
Its just the way Gods Grace. He told us we all have different gifts. I know ONE he gave me for sure.
UNDERSTANDING THE I.C. That one was easy for me.
Simply because he could not have been possible any other way.
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Mickey
Guest
Explained?
That’s the point. There is not evidence of this doctrine in the early undivided Church. No evidence with the great councils. No patristic evidence. No evidence in Sacred Scripture. … then the post schism Roman Church decides to make it a doctrine in the 19th century?
No…it has not always been accepted.
It has nothing to do with understanding.
Hi rinnie,
If God can (and does) “wipe away” our original sin at Baptism (no dispute there from me), then why could God not wipe away the Blessed Virgin’s sin - all of it - at the time of the Visitation, for example?
Jon
M
Mickey
Guest
And indeed…some of the Fathers had that opinion.
And it seems to me, Mickey, that the important aspect of this is two-fold, 1) that Christ receives His humanity from an authentic (if I may use that term) human, the Holy Theotokos, and 2) that she is, as the angel says, highly favoured or full of grace.And indeed…some of the Fathers had that opinion.
With that said, and without support from scripture or the early councils, it seems speculative to say when she was protected from sin. It seems more important that we agree that she was.
Jon
H
Hesychios
Guest
Well, she was 15 or 16 years old at the time, so if we assume that she was certifiably sinless by this quote of the Angel’s declaration there is no explanation for how it could be so.
Traditionally, the assumption was that if she is sinless that was because she chose not to sin.
Later some Christians began to speculate on the depravity of humankind, but it was not always so taught. Once that idea took hold it was an immediate conflict with the sinlessness of Saint Mary, and the cult of Mary was growing, so there had to be a third theory to support that and exempt her from the second theory. That is what I would call ‘derivative theology’.
The idea that she was conceived immaculately was a bug fix, a patch. She had to be made an exception to the depravity of humankind (which was a newer concept gaining currency in some sectors).
But such thinking was not always so widely accepted. In the Christian east the exemption of Saint Mary from original sin never really caught on, because total depravity never caught on.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Is everyone clear in regards to this mans work on the IC? He is the “why” and “how” to the acceptance of the IC Doctrine. Which many suggest was Divinely Inspired.
search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7mO4tSBOGDgAv5hXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1N2hhc2k2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1ZJUDA3OV8xNDc-/SIG=12k25vf51/EXP=1310788120/**http%3a//www.christendom-awake.org/pages/marian/scotus%26immac.htm
Gary
search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7mO4tSBOGDgAv5hXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1N2hhc2k2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1ZJUDA3OV8xNDc-/SIG=12k25vf51/EXP=1310788120/**http%3a//www.christendom-awake.org/pages/marian/scotus%26immac.htm
Gary
K
KathleenGee
Guest
It means those who realize what Christ is all about but reject Him.
Anyone who is baptized, is baptized into the Catholic Church and are part of the mystical Body of Christ.
There are those outside of Christianity, and in their own way are drawing on the life of Christ seeking God’s will and seeing their reflection in their neighbor.
As what it says in the Book of Wisdom, OT, and in Romans through St. Paul, a human being is endowed with free will and intellect and can discern through reason and reflection of nature the existence of God and see that He created this world as good.
The only answer to evil and suffering in this world is Christ on the Cross, and that in this chapter of God, He is now with us, walks among us, helps us carry our cross, nurtures us with His own Body and Blood.
Christ is not a religion or a philosophy.
Christ is an event, a historical event, a reality…of Whom is the Source of all our longing.
The Catholic Church defines the fullness of Who Christ is, and nurtures us with His Word, Body, and Blood. But the Church nurtures and guides us in faith, but is not the determiner of our salvation.
We do not believe as Catholics in multiple visible heads representing the fullness of Christ or different and conflicting doctrines or convictions of Christ.
Instead, we follow in the Jewish tradition of having one head…a bishop is as well considered the Vicar of Christ over the local church. And all the bishops – who represent us, --we who are also Alter Christus with our Lord living within us, —who are in communion with the Holy Father, all represent God and the truth about God, the truth about who we are, where we have been, where we are now, and the path that leads us to salvation. But it is God alone Who saves. That is what “Jeshua” means, One Who Saves. Our leadership is the means through which we receive the sacraments and the full context of the meaning of the Word of God and the sacraments, and help us understand the Word of God in our specific time.
The pope, the bishops, all of us, are sustained by Christ Himself…the vine and branches, the Groom and Bridegroom…a living breathing entity united.
For you, it is better you focus on the event of coming to know Christ for now, rather than focusing on Church or religion…
Anyone who is baptized, is baptized into the Catholic Church and are part of the mystical Body of Christ.
There are those outside of Christianity, and in their own way are drawing on the life of Christ seeking God’s will and seeing their reflection in their neighbor.
As what it says in the Book of Wisdom, OT, and in Romans through St. Paul, a human being is endowed with free will and intellect and can discern through reason and reflection of nature the existence of God and see that He created this world as good.
The only answer to evil and suffering in this world is Christ on the Cross, and that in this chapter of God, He is now with us, walks among us, helps us carry our cross, nurtures us with His own Body and Blood.
Christ is not a religion or a philosophy.
Christ is an event, a historical event, a reality…of Whom is the Source of all our longing.
The Catholic Church defines the fullness of Who Christ is, and nurtures us with His Word, Body, and Blood. But the Church nurtures and guides us in faith, but is not the determiner of our salvation.
We do not believe as Catholics in multiple visible heads representing the fullness of Christ or different and conflicting doctrines or convictions of Christ.
Instead, we follow in the Jewish tradition of having one head…a bishop is as well considered the Vicar of Christ over the local church. And all the bishops – who represent us, --we who are also Alter Christus with our Lord living within us, —who are in communion with the Holy Father, all represent God and the truth about God, the truth about who we are, where we have been, where we are now, and the path that leads us to salvation. But it is God alone Who saves. That is what “Jeshua” means, One Who Saves. Our leadership is the means through which we receive the sacraments and the full context of the meaning of the Word of God and the sacraments, and help us understand the Word of God in our specific time.
The pope, the bishops, all of us, are sustained by Christ Himself…the vine and branches, the Groom and Bridegroom…a living breathing entity united.
For you, it is better you focus on the event of coming to know Christ for now, rather than focusing on Church or religion…
H
Hesychios
Guest
1,300 years after the fact.
R
rinnie
Guest
Hold on there big fellow where in the world was it ever said that she was sinless because she never sinned.
She was SAVED from Original sin not because she never sinned for goodness sakes she was just saved at her conception in the womb. SHe was SAVED do you notice how I am saying SAVED from original sin from God. Being saved from original sin has nothing to do with actual sin at your own free will. SO now what are you implying that we choose to be in original sin or something? Original sin was our free will
SO again what exactly are you talking about. WHile I agree after she was saved from original sin she CHOOSE to not sin in actual sin, but I don’t get what you are saying?
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Hi Poetess…
I am recommending you also get a copy of ‘Crossing the Threshold of Hope’…our Holy Father illuminates so many things and concepts, including the problem of understanding the papacy…
It is the best synopsis of Vatican II and Christ and humanity.
The Roman Catholic Church in its true sense is a missionary, giving itself to others for Christ’s sake. The fact that you see the Holy Father respected and acknowledged by the world is a sign that it is still open to Christ.
Christ said before He died to pray for unity…because it is in this unity that the world will be converted.
Only Jesus can give us salvation…and it is all about love. To reject love and turn to hate, is to reject Christ.
Catholic Catechism 161: ‘Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One Who sent Him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since without faith it is impossible to please God’ and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘but he who endures to the end’…to increase our faith…it is in 'working through charity. (CC162)
Any Catholic who follows all the laws and doctrines and practices of the Church but does not love will not attain salvation. Vatican II…
Finally, CC 169: Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the life of the Church, she is our mother: “We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and — not in the Church,— as if she were the author of our salvation.” Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in faith.
So the Church represents Jesus Christ, His life in His Word and Sacraments, through one visible head, the Holy Father. And the Holy Father in this context, also means in communion with all bishops and believers…
Subsequently, the Holy Father is the sign and symbol of the faith of all of us in Jesus Christ, and Christ Himself made Peter the Rock, this authority never leaving all down through the ages, irregardless of the sins of individual popes.
I am recommending you also get a copy of ‘Crossing the Threshold of Hope’…our Holy Father illuminates so many things and concepts, including the problem of understanding the papacy…
It is the best synopsis of Vatican II and Christ and humanity.
The Roman Catholic Church in its true sense is a missionary, giving itself to others for Christ’s sake. The fact that you see the Holy Father respected and acknowledged by the world is a sign that it is still open to Christ.
Christ said before He died to pray for unity…because it is in this unity that the world will be converted.
Only Jesus can give us salvation…and it is all about love. To reject love and turn to hate, is to reject Christ.
Catholic Catechism 161: ‘Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One Who sent Him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since without faith it is impossible to please God’ and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘but he who endures to the end’…to increase our faith…it is in 'working through charity. (CC162)
Any Catholic who follows all the laws and doctrines and practices of the Church but does not love will not attain salvation. Vatican II…
Finally, CC 169: Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the life of the Church, she is our mother: “We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and — not in the Church,— as if she were the author of our salvation.” Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in faith.
So the Church represents Jesus Christ, His life in His Word and Sacraments, through one visible head, the Holy Father. And the Holy Father in this context, also means in communion with all bishops and believers…
Subsequently, the Holy Father is the sign and symbol of the faith of all of us in Jesus Christ, and Christ Himself made Peter the Rock, this authority never leaving all down through the ages, irregardless of the sins of individual popes.
R
rinnie
Guest
Hey boss, here is why. Simple if he would have waited until her visitation she would have had the stain of Original SIn on her the same as us.
But remember Catholic teaching, it was AT THE MOMENT OF HER CONCEPTION. get it. GOd got between her and original sin. GOd would not let original sin hit her. IF he would have waited till the visitation she would have already been hit with original sin. Remember what I told Mickey a long time ago on this thread. If you were about to fall in a whole and I stepped in and pulled you out before you fell I saved you from the fall. Same thing here buddy.
Hey gotta roll will be gone all weekend as usual. Working on the house from hell. Love to you and Mickey, and to all of your family. Be back Monday.
P.S. Mickey loves me I am his FAVORITE R.C.
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