What ought a child to do, if commanded to lie by the parent?

[DarkLight]

A question of curiosity, remembering a time from my own childhood. Basically, something had been damaged, and my mother was convinced that I had intentionally damaged it. I had not, and I had no idea how it had come to be damaged. But I was told that I was expected to make a full confession (including that I had intentionally damaged it, and explaining why I had done so), and that I would be in trouble until I did so.

Now, it seems in this case that disobeying parents is wrong, and that lying is also wrong. And it’s not like a case of a parent intentionally commanding something wrong - my mother genuinely thought I’d done it. So which one ought a child to do in this case?

 

[Xantippe]

A question of curiosity, remembering a time from my own childhood. Basically, something had been damaged, and my mother was convinced that I had intentionally damaged it. I had not, and I had no idea how it had come to be damaged. But I was told that I was expected to make a full confession (including that I had intentionally damaged it, and explaining why I had done so), and that I would be in trouble until I did so.

Now, it seems in this case that disobeying parents is wrong, and that lying is also wrong. And it’s not like a case of a parent intentionally commanding something wrong - my mother genuinely thought I’d done it. So which one ought a child to do in this case?

I don’t think this will be helpful to anybody (as pretty much no children talk or think like this) but how about asking, “Mom, if I were innocent, would you want me to confess to something I hadn’t done?”

 

[DarkLight]

I don’t think this will be helpful to anybody (as pretty much no children talk or think like this) but how about asking, “Mom, if I were innocent, would you want me to confess to something I hadn’t done?”

I’m pretty sure with my mother the answer would have been “Don’t talk back,” followed by a spanking for sass.

I don’t remember how old I was exactly, but I was old enough to know that I wasn’t supposed to lie, but I was supposed to obey my parents, and not being sure what to do.

 

[underacloud]

Not lie.

The proscription against lying is considered to always apply, whereas our duty to obey our parents does not always apply - it is subject to their instructions being in themselves morally good or neutral. Eg if your parents tell you to murder someone, you don’t obey them.

Lying is considered intrinsically wrong (never ok to do), whereas disobeying our parents is sometimes necessary.

Of course, the child in such a scenario is under duress and that mitigates their culpability if they lie to resolve a near impossible situation. Hopefully the child could find a way to word such a confession to appease their parents without technically lying, via some sort of mental reservation, although some moral theologians would even debate the morality of that approach.

 

[powerofk]

It’s one of those things when a person is convinced of something that isn’t true, and would actually think that the truth is a lie. Happens to kids and adults all the time.

In reality, the best thing for the child to say would be, “Mom, I know you believe I did this, and I’m willing to accept any punishment you feel would be acceptable for what happened. But I can’t say I did something that I didn’t do.”

Of course, that would probably mean accepting grounding and/or spanking and/or paying for a replacement (either by allowance being withheld or by working odd jobs in the neighborhood to pay off the debt), etc.

Pretty much, it’s the equivalent to pleading “no contest” when one knows he/she didn’t commit a crime, but also knows that the evidence is so stacked against them that there’s no getting out of a conviction.

 

[DarkLight]

It’s one of those things when a person is convinced of something that isn’t true, and would actually think that the truth is a lie. Happens to kids and adults all the time.

In reality, the best thing for the child to say would be, “Mom, I know you believe I did this, and I’m willing to accept any punishment you feel would be acceptable for what happened. But I can’t say I did something that I didn’t do.”

Of course, that would probably mean accepting grounding and/or spanking and/or paying for a replacement (either by allowance being withheld or by working odd jobs in the neighborhood to pay off the debt), etc.

Pretty much, it’s the equivalent to pleading “no contest” when one knows he/she didn’t commit a crime, but also knows that the evidence is so stacked against them that there’s no getting out of a conviction.

If you have a family like mine that’s not going to work. The rule is essentially that punishment lasts until you, in the parents’ eye, “stop lying.” Saying what you suggest would merely extend the punishment for being obstinate and refusing to confess.

 

[MamaJewel]

If you have a family like mine that’s not going to work. The rule is essentially that punishment lasts until you, in the parents’ eye, “stop lying.” Saying what you suggest would merely extend the punishment for being obstinate and refusing to confess.

I can so relate to this thread, DL. Definitely a trigger moment for me.

For those of us who have lived this nightmare, we can’t exactly ask, “What would Jesus do?”, to discern an answer, because, well, Jesus didn’t have to put up with this type of crazy-making.

So, really, what does a kid do in the scenarios that you present? When I was young, I believed that kids in these abusive situations needed to take the high-road as some responses suggest.

Now that I am middle-age, I no longer believe that kids dealing with these kinds of abuses have any obligation to their parents or God laws whatsoever when directly addressing such an issue as you describe. Why? 1) Because it is so out-of-line for a parent to behave as you (and I) experienced and 2) when God deigned to place us in such a sick environment by giving us parents like this, He suspended our responsibility to *Honor our parent(s) in these abusive moments. We had no responsibility other than
to keep ourselves safe when we faced such disgusting abusive moments.

*Honor meaning manipulated and controlled against our human dignity, sometimes in the very name of God

I really hope that one day you can find healing, Dark Light. I remember having similar crazy-making experiences that you describe. I am so sorry your mom did that to you and even more sorry that God allowed it for you. I’ve had moments where I told God straight up in prayer, “You put me in such an abusive environment (as a child) and expected me to be ok? That isn’t how it works. You’re lucky I didn’t turn out to be very bad, wanting nothing to do with You. Please give kids to good parents. You can because You’re God!” It’s been part of the bargaining stage in my healing process. Sometimes it’s very difficult to reconcile an all powerful God creating an innocent child in treachery and madness.

I have to compartmentalize (and was told by more than 1 trauma counselor to do so) the craziness of my life, in particularly certain aspects of my childhood. By the Grace of God, I have been able to forgive and with God’s Strength I have been able to affect positive changes and facilitate healing within my family of origin. But it has been a long, hard on-going road. (One that included having No Contact or Limited Contact at times).

If you have the opportunity, please try to connect with quality mental health counselors that deal with child abuse and trauma. Also, if you have a reputable domestic violence / crisis center in your community, you might want to consider reaching out for their support.

I pray that God grants you healing, sister in Christ.

 

[DarkLight]

I wouldn’t consider an incident like that to be child abuse in any way. The parent wants the child to tell the truth. In the parents’ eyes, the child is lying, and being obstinate in their lie. The parent is wrong, but their desire is to teach the child to tell the truth by imposing consequences for lying.

 

[Xantippe]

I wouldn’t consider an incident like that to be child abuse in any way. The parent wants the child to tell the truth. In the parents’ eyes, the child is lying, and being obstinate in their lie. The parent is wrong, but their desire is to teach the child to tell the truth by imposing consequences for lying.

You betcha it’s abusive to not even consider the possibility that your child is telling the truth.

 

[Xantippe]

I wouldn’t consider an incident like that to be child abuse in any way. The parent wants the child to tell the truth. In the parents’ eyes, the child is lying, and being obstinate in their lie. The parent is wrong, but their desire is to teach the child to tell the truth by imposing consequences for lying.

You betcha it’s abusive.

 

[Lou2U]

I wouldn’t consider an incident like that to be child abuse in any way. The parent wants the child to tell the truth. In the parents’ eyes, the child is lying, and being obstinate in their lie. The parent is wrong, but their desire is to teach the child to tell the truth by imposing consequences for lying.

But the child is telling the truth. The parent is wrong, and their actions cannot be justified.

I’m sorry your childhood was this way. A punishment that lasts until a false confession must have been so, so hard for you. The way your parents acted in this was wrong, and they should have listened to you.

Lou

 

[jmjZelie]

I wouldn’t consider an incident like that to be child abuse in any way. The parent wants the child to tell the truth. In the parents’ eyes, the child is lying, and being obstinate in their lie. The parent is wrong, but their desire is to teach the child to tell the truth by imposing consequences for lying.

Darklight,

That behavior you describe absolutely is abusive.

 

[Sarcelle]

I wouldn’t consider an incident like that to be child abuse in any way. The parent wants the child to tell the truth. In the parents’ eyes, the child is lying, and being obstinate in their lie. The parent is wrong, but their desire is to teach the child to tell the truth by imposing consequences for lying.

Your position may have merit if the child has a known history of lying. If the child does not have a history of lying, than I agree, it can be abusive.