What precisely Is the "self"?

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Response to post 173
A description is not the thing described. Consciousness defies description because it is foundational.* That is why empiricists like Dennet and other eliminative materialists deny its existence.
  • Another example of ineffable foundations is language. What is a toothpick? Wood. What is wood? Cellulose fibers. What is… Ultimately, a words foundation is ineffable!
 
Response to post 166
Pain (when present) self evidently exists. It would be absurd to say," I feel pain but do not believe I feel pain".
Actually, I believe we are in agreement. Its just that I’m seeing the same position from a different angle.
Ironically, empiricists (supposedly the most scientific position) base all their knowledge on qualia. Of course they would deny that. But that is what their position obviously implies.
The word “qualia” implies quality not quantity (quantifiable ). To believe that quanity can exist without quality as a foundation is absurd. Without something to count their cannot be counting.
I’m not clear how this relates to my post? Also, please explain how you definc " qualia ",
because it has been defined different ways in different periods of history? 👍
 
Again, here this presumes the (common and useful) definition of “Consciousness” as “being conscious TO/OF something” whether that’s the natural or spiritual world, etc. That is not the way that witt was using the word, nor is it the way that I in my own posts use the word, and in fact the word “consciousness” is only being used for lack of a better word.

To be unconscious does not mean that you are suddenly no more “conscious” than a rock. It means that you no longer have anything of which to be conscious (stimuli, which are normally generated through the brain–although in Heaven, pre-resurrection-day, it would seem that the souls have some other means of being conscious of things).

Again, it’s the same way that in a dark room you might be described as “blind” because there is no light to enter your eyes, but that doesn’t mean that your eyes have stopped working or that your sense of sight is “nonexistent” at that moment. We understand if you say a person in a pitch black room is [effectively] blind, you do not meant that his sight isn’t working, but rather that in the absence of stimuli (in this case, light) his sight has nothing to behold.

That is what I mean by saying that “consciousness” is permanent…like the person’s sense of sight in a pitch black room, the consciousness hasn’t “ceased to be” but has rather ceased to have anything to “behold” during brain-death or dreamless sleep. Just as we might say that a person in a dark room is “blind”, but without meaning that his sense of sight has actually “ceased to exist” (as is proven by the fact that as soon as the lights are turned on, he will again see, which he wouldn’t if his sense of sight had truly failed him) so too when a brain-dead person, or a person dreamlessly sleeping, is said to be “unconscious” it does not inherently indicate that his/her “consciousness” has “ceased to be” (temporarily or otherwise), just that it currently lacks any stimuli to act as its object.

Again, though, I admit that “consciousness” is not the best word for this, due to the confusion it causes when compared to “unconsciousness” etc. The better word, perhaps, but one that is not so common, is “Qualia,”(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia) which–if I were to paraphrase–might be described as “potential consciousness” which is indeed constant in the same way that you might say a man in a pitch black room may not technically have “sight” in that darkness, but he constantly has “potential sight” the entire time, which never goes away just because the room happens to be totally dark, and which is why the moment he has light again, he sees…if his “potential sight” had ceased to be because the room was dark, then even when the light was turned on again, he wouldn’t see.

Just the same, a man’s Qualia (potential consciousness) hasn’t ceased to exist just because he is brain dead or literally dead…it just has no object upon which to act, just as a man’s “sight” has no object on which to act in a pitch dark room.

Qualia is permanent by the mere fact that it’s not something that can be accounted for by brainwaves and such, as those things are composed of matter, while qualia is not something that can be accounted for by being “made of parts.” And whatever is not “made of parts” cannot decompose (since decomposing means to come apart), and therefore must be constant/permanent. Therefore I believe that Qualia (which is what witt meant by Consciousness, I do believe, and is what I have meant by it) is indeed a constant/permanent thing. The soul will always have Qualia (the potential for consciousness) for as long as it exists, even when the body is braindead, even when actual death strikes. I believe that is what distinguishes a soul from being the spiritual equivalent of a rock or a grain of sand or otherwise dead matter. I go into more detail on the importance of Qualia to that distinction in Post# 172.

One more qualifier that must be made is that even “potential” consciousness doesn’t quite describe Qualia…because qualia is never “dormant” nor merely “potential”…it’s always there, as it does not “decompose”, and so in that sense the word “potential” is misleading. It’s simply the best word I can come up with to grant that sometimes there’s nothing of which to be conscious; but even then (and I think this is an important exception), when there is nothing else of which to be conscious, there is still the pure, indescribable, wordless, thoughtless, emotionless, memory-free fact of one’s own existence. Consciousness of that fact always exists, I believe, and that’s why I believe that in that sense “consciousness always exists” and is not merely “potential consciousness.” But to ONLY be conscious of one’s own existence, without being conscious at the same time of ANY thoughts, words, emotions, memories, sensory perceptions, etc. to make sense of it, is such an incomprehensible state to the human mind (which relies on those other things in order to communicate/conceive) that I understand why using the word “consciousness” for that state could be confusing. And indeed, it would be a different sort of “consciousness” than any we no how to explain or describe.

It’s hard to explain, because there aren’t many words for it. Even “qualia” fails to some extent if only because it’s not a familiar enough word to instantly conjure up that which it entails. But hopefully I’m not completely failing, despite the limits of language. :o

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
Thomas Nagel wrote a famous article (online) “What is it Like to Be a Bat?” which exposes the absurdity of materialism with its attempts to explain subjective experience in terms of objective facts. A selfless world means nothing to no one!

(This must be one of the very rare cases where a double negative is justified…)
 
Thomas Nagel wrote a famous article (online) “What is it Like to Be a Bat?” which exposes the absurdity of materialism with its attempts to explain subjective experience in terms of objective facts. A selfless world means nothing to no one!

(This must be one of the very rare cases where a double negative is justified…)
I looked into that, and it turns out that Nagel’s philosophy that there must be “something that it is like” to be any creature that is truly alive is very similar to arguments I myself have made in the past when discussing this with a philosophically-astute friend of mine. While the friend and I might have came to an understanding (I’m still not entirely sure) it took us a while due to terminology differences–the friend kept defining “like” as meaning “something that compares to something we know” as opposed to the broader use of the word.

Perhaps it’s true that “being an angel is like being an angel” as opposed to having anything else to which to compare it, which seems to render the word “like” useless because of course being an angel must be like being an angel; however, it’s really not useless, because being a speck of sand, on the other hand, is like nothing. Because at the core of its being, if all of its atoms were pulled apart, nothing is what a speck of sand is. So when we say “Being an X must be like something” even if the only “something” is the (seemingly redundant) reality of “being an X” it’s still an assertion of “X’s” being a true living thing as opposed to a mechanical sum of parts, because to be a mechanical sum of parts, rather than being “like being a mechanical sum of parts,” is rather “like nothing.”

Put another way, perhaps a better way, “To be a living thing (including even the soul of a brain dead person) is to have some sort of an experience, however incomprehensible or incomparable that experience may be, whereas to be dead matter or a sum of parts is rather a non-experience.” My friend still objected to that, saying that because humans define and describe “experience” by physical senses that we couldn’t use the word to apply to spiritual beings such as angels which do not have “senses” as we describe them, but I thought–and still think–that he was needlessly imposing limits on the word.

As an expectant father, I really hope that, when they’re of age to talk about such things, I can at least make *some *sense to my children when I try to describe things like this to them. 😃 :o 😛

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
 
I looked into that, and it turns out that Nagel’s philosophy that there must be “something that it is like” to be any creature that is truly alive is very similar to arguments I myself have made in the past when discussing this with a philosophically-astute friend of mine. While the friend and I might have came to an understanding (I’m still not entirely sure) it took us a while due to terminology differences–the friend kept defining “like” as meaning “something that compares to something we know” as opposed to the broader use of the word.

Perhaps it’s true that “being an angel is like being an angel” as opposed to having anything else to which to compare it, which seems to render the word “like” useless because of course being an angel must be like being an angel; however, it’s really not useless, because being a speck of sand, on the other hand, is like nothing. Because at the core of its being, if all of its atoms were pulled apart, nothing is what a speck of sand is. So when we say “Being an X must be like something” even if the only “something” is the (seemingly redundant) reality of “being an X” it’s still an assertion of “X’s” being a true living thing as opposed to a mechanical sum of parts, because to be a mechanical sum of parts, rather than being “like being a mechanical sum of parts,” is rather “like nothing.”

Put another way, perhaps a better way, “To be a living thing (including even the soul of a brain dead person) is to have some sort of an experience, however incomprehensible or incomparable that experience may be, whereahttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=10332479s to be dead matter or a sum of parts is rather a non-experience.” My friend still objected to that, saying that because humans define and describe “experience” by physical senses that we couldn’t use the word to apply to spiritual beings such as angels which do not have “senses” as we describe them, but I thought–and still think–that he was needlessly imposing limits on the word.

As an expectant father, I really hope that, when they’re of age to talk about such things, I can at least make *some *sense to my children when I try to describe things like this to them. 😃 :o 😛

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
Congratulations! :clapping: Being confronted with a new-born baby makes us more acutely aware of the wonder and beauty of life…

Your friend doesn’t realise experience is primarily subjective and the physical senses themselves are inferred by our mind - which is the fundamental reality. We make mistakes about our body but no one can tell us what we are thinking and feeling except ourselves…

God bless the father, mother and child! 🙂
 
Congratulations! :clapping: Being confronted with a new-born baby makes us more acutely aware of the wonder and beauty of life…

Your friend doesn’t realise experience is primarily subjective and the physical senses themselves are inferred by our mind - which is the fundamental reality. We make mistakes about our body but no one can tell us what we are thinking and feeling except ourselves…

God bless the father, mother and child! 🙂
Thanks!

I think my friend ultimately agreed with my philosophy on the matter, just not that I could use certain language (“It is like something to be X”) to describe it. That’s the hardest part of discussion sometimes: Getting on the same page with the words we use when we talk to others. Even if we agree with someone else almost 100%, that can sometimes be clouded if we’re using words that mean something different to us than they do to the other. I wouldn’t doubt that right here on CAF some agreements have probably actually been misunderstandings. Such is life, it would seem.

Thanks, again, for the congratulations and all! 🙂 It’s definitely amazing.

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
 
“Myself” and “ourselves” distinguish persons from bodies but is that distinction valid? If so why? How would you define the mind?
“the self” is that last hinge onto which anything can be hung. Sartre said it was “nothing”. There is no “I” there was only experience.

Decartes had it wrong when he said “I think…ergo I exist” because he assumed that there was an “I”. Bettter if he have said “there is experience, therefore, there is existence”

In the end there is only “being” . There is only “is-ness” and it struggles to manifest. This explains how “something” can proceed from “nothing”… Stated another way, there is no such thing as “nothing”. There is only being. Being strives to manifest and once manifested it strives to be sentient and from this is rationality.

That which is rational is, thus, an emergent property. This is how Aquainus got it wrong-----by assuming the complexity is a hierarchical property (from the top down) when it is, instead, emergent.

I hope this helps.
JP
 
“the self” is that last hinge onto which anything can be hung. Sartre said it was “nothing”. There is no “I” there was only experience.

Decartes had it wrong when he said “I think…ergo I exist” because he assumed that there was an “I”. Bettter if he have said “there is experience, therefore, there is existence”

In the end there is only “being” . There is only “is-ness” and it struggles to manifest. This explains how “something” can proceed from “nothing”… Stated another way, there is no such thing as “nothing”. There is only being. Being strives to manifest and once manifested it strives to be sentient and from this is rationality.

That which is rational is, thus, an emergent property. This is how Aquainus got it wrong-----by assuming the complexity is a hierarchical property (from the top down) when it is, instead, emergent.

I hope this helps.
JP
Or rather, there is a self, but your self is solid; it does as much breathing and moving as thinking and feeling.

ICXC NIKA
 
“the self” is that last hinge onto which anything can be hung. Sartre said it was “nothing”. There is no “I” there was only experience.

Decartes had it wrong when he said “I think…ergo I exist” because he assumed that there was an “I”. Bettter if he have said “there is experience, therefore, there is existence”

In the end there is only “being” . There is only “is-ness” and it struggles to manifest. This explains how “something” can proceed from “nothing”… Stated another way, there is no such thing as “nothing”. There is only being. Being strives to manifest and once manifested it strives to be sentient and from this is rationality.

That which is rational is, thus, an emergent property. This is how Aquainus got it wrong-----by assuming the complexity is a hierarchical property (from the top down) when it is, instead, emergent.

I hope this helps.
JP
It seems to me that “experience” and “being” are meaningless terms in the absence of individuals. “Being” is an abstraction not an explanation, an abstraction created by persons!

“Emergent” doesn’t explain how rational beings are produced by inanimate objects…
 
It seems to me that “experience” and “being” are meaningless terms in the absence of individuals. “Being” is an abstraction not an explanation, an abstraction created by persons!

“Emergent” doesn’t explain how rational beings are produced by inanimate objects…
Yes it does. You just haven’t reflected on it sufficiently.
 
It seems to me that “experience” and “being” are meaningless terms in the absence of individuals. “Being” is an abstraction not an explanation, an abstraction created by persons!
“Emergent” doesn’t explain how rational beings are produced by inanimate objects…
How do you explain God identifying himself as “I am”? Pure being. God is certainly not created by persons. He is only an abstraction to us who can’t understand Him fully.
 
How do you explain God identifying himself as “I am”? Pure being. God is certainly not created by persons. He is only an abstraction to us who can’t understand Him fully.
my :twocents: joining late in the discussion

flashes of eastern thought come to mind:

the “I am” that is the Centre of every being, every part of the universe
KindredSoul: But to ONLY be conscious of one’s own existence, without being conscious at the same time of ANY thoughts, words, emotions, memories, sensory perceptions, etc. to make sense of it, is such an incomprehensible state to the human mind (which relies on those other things in order to communicate/conceive) that I understand why using the word “consciousness” for that state could be confusing. And indeed, it would be a different sort of “consciousness” than any we no how to explain or describe.
Nirvana/Enlightenment achieved in Zen through meditation of Koans - paradoxical statements/questions intended to exhaust analytical intellect to reach the realization of one’s Buddha nature.

anyway, I wanted to make a few quick points:

God is an abstraction for our intellect, the same way that my pain would be in the others mind - my undeniable reality = another’s fantasy

Through God’s act of Being in Eternity, all being is. Being as a giving of Himself to creation, is Love; and in that infinite sea of Compassion our soul exists as self, an incarnation of Adam.

The human soul with its wholeness and being enters into communion with the world, through its perceptions and cognitive processes. A oneness occurs between the being of the person and that of the “object” of its attention. The specific qualities associated with the person’s being and those of the “object” determine the nature of the experience in the moment.

The cognitive processes that make up the self include memory contained in the neural network of the brain. The soul is able to manipulate this organic system to recreate impressions, through neuronal patterns that “code” the experiences from the past. In diseases that damage the brain, the soul cannot access words and images associated with the past. Though memory is a quality of the soul, the soul is so identified with the body, that it loses its past, at least in life.

The totality of behaviour patterns, understandings, reactions and memories of the person who is a human body and soul, would be the self; it is cognitive and while moldable, attempts to maintain its integrity and experiences anxiety when threatened.

hope this is making sense - just some thoughts that i’m trying to organize; thanks for the opportunity to do so
 
It seems to me that “experience” and “being” are meaningless terms in the absence of individuals. “Being” is an abstraction not an explanation, an abstraction created by persons!
No response…
“Emergent” doesn’t explain how rational beings are produced by inanimate objects…
Yes it does. You just haven’t reflected on it sufficiently.

Unsubstantiated assertion…
 
How do you explain God identifying himself as “I am”? Pure being. God is certainly not created by persons. He is only an abstraction to us who can’t understand Him fully.
God IS persons.
 
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tonyrey:
“Emergent” doesn’t explain how rational beings are produced by inanimate objects…
Yes it does. You just haven’t reflected on it sufficiently.
I’ve reflected on this pretty well. For example, termite towers are emergent phenomena, arising from the individual deposition of huge numbers of small bits of chewed wood by many individual termites. We can trace the whole process, and understand exactly how it is that the tower emerges from the cumulative action of the termite colony.

However, assuming that the reference quoted above is to the inanimate material that makes up our brains, I do not similarly see how subjective experience is generated emergently from it. Can you trace out the process? I’d be very much obliged. Thanks!
 
It seems to me that “experience” and “being” are meaningless terms in the absence of individuals. “Being” is an abstraction not an explanation, an abstraction created by persons!

“Emergent” doesn’t explain how rational beings are produced by inanimate objects…
And a rational universe does not explain how it is governed by a personal diety
 
And a rational universe does not explain how it is governed by a personal diety
It would be presumptuous for anyone to claim to know how the universe was created - or is controlled - but it is far more reasonable to believe an orderly, intelligible system which enables life and rational beings to exist is designed than a fortuitous combination of purposeless events. The theory that thought is ultimately inanimate is inchoate!
 
but it is far more reasonable to believe an orderly, intelligible system which enables life and rational beings to exist is designed than a fortuitous combination of purposeless events.The theory that thought is ultimately inanimate is inchoate!
Then you must also believe that mathematics is a “person” because it possesses all of the attributes of an organized and rational body.

Personification of the truth, wisdom and a variety of other concepts such as the wind, earth, sun, moon on and on is what our ancestors did to make sense of a world berift of tools for intellectual study. It seems to me that you carry on that tradition quite well.

inchoate? Most everything is, in one way or another, inchoate, I guess. Everything is in a process of hatching and rehatching. Its almosy cyclic, isn’t it?.
 
]…but it is far more reasonable to believe an orderly, intelligible system which enables life and rational beings to exist is designed than a fortuitous combination of purposeless events.
Including insight and understanding?
Personification of the truth, wisdom and a variety of other concepts such as the wind, earth, sun, moon on and on is what our ancestors did to make sense of a world berift of tools for intellectual study. It seems to me that you carry on that tradition quite well.
It could be said with equal facility - and far more cogency - that you carry on the impersonal, mindless tradition extremely well! 🙂
The theory that thought is ultimately inanimate is inchoate!
inchoate? Most everything is, in one way or another, inchoate, I guess. Everything is in a process of hatching and rehatching. Its almosy cyclic, isn’t it?.

If thought happened to be inchoate all our conclusions would be worthless!
 
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