What precisely Is the "self"?

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I agree - provided life is not reduced to a physiological phenomenon.

One thing is certain. Self-control and self-determination are fantasies if the self doesn’t exist…
Well, we can’t find life physiologically, only it’s chemical processes (in the human being, heat transfer, breathing, movement, brainwaves etc.). We cannot detect life itself by physiological process. Else there would be no issue defining death for organ use, etc.

So one could say that life is not just physiology. Life must still be held and expressed by a body, however (as the mind by a head).

I doubt that anybody, other than the few Buddhists reading the thread, would care to deny the existence of the self. Everybody else has more than enough trouble with self denial!!🙂

ICXC NIKA
 
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Well, we can’t find life physiologically, only it’s chemical processes (in the human being, heat transfer, breathing, movement, brainwaves etc.). We cannot detect life itself by physiological process. Else there would be no issue defining death for organ use, etc.
What is “life itself” apart from the physiological processes that manifest it? Is the experience we subjectively have of living something different to the fact of our bodies undertaking the functions of life?
So one could say that life is not just physiology. Life must still be held and expressed by a body, however (as the mind by a head).
Since life is so apparently dependent upon a certain minimal degree of bodily functioning, how can we then say it is not just physiology? And what would it mean, for that matter, to say that it is ‘just’ physiology? Are we so confident already that we know the limits of physical functioning?
I doubt that anybody, other than the few Buddhists reading the thread, would care to deny the existence of the self. Everybody else has more than enough trouble with self denial!!🙂
Plenty of will power, but limited “won’t power”, as the saying goes!

Even I do not deny the existence of the self - but I question the designation of ‘self’ as any sort of entity separate to our physical manifestation. Evidently we have subjective experience - the question then becomes, how do we have this? It does not lead automatically to the idea that, “Well, we have subjective experience so it has to come from somewhere beyond the body and its physical functioning.”
 
But I think that’s a different question concerning how the mind interacts with the body, and I would agree that this is not clear.
Well, it can’t possibly be clear if the mind is supposed to be something entirely separate from the brain, rather than a manifestation or emergent property of the brain’s functioning. For starters, you’d still have to define what the mind is, in order to have any basis upon which to discern what it does - and the only workable hypothesis is, as I’ve just said, that the mind is an emergent property of cerebral functioning.
Not to mention that all rational will to the truth and any attempt to have a truly rational conversation that can end in genuine acknowledgement of truth becomes logically impossible.
Why?
Science becomes impossible. In fact you have to presuppose a real distinction between the nature of the rational mind and the nature of the brain before we can even proceed to have rational conversations. Do you see what I am saying?
No, I don’t.

I don’t see why there’s a need to suppose that the mind has to hover above the kinds of physical interaction that the brain can have with the rest of the body and the external environment, in order for us to arrive at working explanations of how reality operates.
The whole mind body debate is irrational to begin with since it is impossible to rationally know or acknowledge any truth if the mental activities in our brains are fundamentally made-up of non-rational activity.
I agree, on some level, that the mind-body debate is irrational - the mind is manifested by the body, after all; co-ordinated by the brain, most likely, but beholden to the functioning of the body and its interaction with its environment. And given the propensity we observe in the rest of nature for simple entities to give rise to complex phenomena - in the manner of individual termites, say, building small elements of a vast nest - it seems naive, at best, to suppose that something like conscious awareness or intellect simply could not arise from simpler elements - that rationality is not the product of the interaction of nonrational factors. How would we know that such is the case? What is rationality, after all - a single, indivisible phenomenon or a process involving multiple components?
 
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:ehh::ehh::ehh:
 
:rotfl:

There is no mind-body problem. This debate was ended hundreds if not thousands of years ago. Yet dogmatic metaphysical naturalists are still trying to confuse their irreconcilable idea of reality with reality.

Its really embarrassing.
Excellent. Careful, you may be ostresized by the opposition because they just can’t follow solid reasoning, their world is simply matter and the interaction of matter and they can’t think how this could possibly be so. :tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:
 
Well, we can’t find life physiologically, only it’s chemical processes (in the human being, heat transfer, breathing, movement, brainwaves etc.). We cannot detect life itself by physiological process. Else there would be no issue defining death for organ use, etc.

So one could say that life is not just physiology. Life must still be held and expressed by a body, however (as the mind by a head)
What do you think the mind is?
I doubt that anybody, other than the few Buddhists reading the thread, would care to deny the existence of the self. Everybody else has more than enough trouble with self denial!!🙂
That is the supreme advantage of denying the existence of self-denial - in spite of the vehement denials of those who reject self-denial! 😉
 
Well, it can’t possibly be clear if the mind is supposed to be something entirely separate from the brain, rather than a manifestation or emergent property of the brain’s functioning. For starters, you’d still have to define what the mind is, in order to have any basis upon which to discern what it does - and the only workable hypothesis is, as I’ve just said, that the mind is an emergent property of cerebral functioning.
The vast majority of people behave as if they control their body with their mind, not their body with their body. “an emergent property” precludes self-control because it is a dependent product whereas a person is an independent agent.
What is rationality, after all - a single, indivisible phenomenon or a process involving multiple components?
Rationality is a description of the mental activity of** a person** who has insight into reality.
What do you think thoughts, choices and decisions are? Electrical impulses?
 
Even I do not deny the existence of the self - but I question the designation of ‘self’ as any sort of entity separate to our physical manifestation. Evidently we have subjective experience - the question then becomes, how do we have this? It does not lead automatically to the idea that, “Well, we have subjective experience so it has to come from somewhere beyond the body and its physical functioning.”
How would you define the self?
 
Very nice. I am a body. I am not two entities - a cogito and an “external” body. Just one entity - a body, a human body. But this body is mine, and not someone’s else’s. Where does the sense of “mineness” come from?
The human person , created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual ( CCC 362 ). The term " soul " often refers to human LIFE or the entire human PERSON. But it also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him, that by which he is most especially in God’s image: " soul " signifies the SPIRITUAL PRINCIPLE in man ( CCC 363 ).

Futher, the unity of the soul and the body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the " form " ( substantial form ) of the body, because it is through the spiritual soul that the body made from matter becomes a living human body. Man the PERSON is a composit of spirit and matter, a single nature composed of body and soul (CCC365 ).

Now that is all the Church teaches in the Catechism. It says nothing about Man being a rational animal. Nor does it say that the principles of the soul are Intellect and Will. Nor does it talk about " mind. " Does that mean we can hold just any old opinion we want to on these things. By no means. The Church has defended and upheld the Perinneal Philosophy of St. Thomas and the 13th century Scholastics for 800 years. In 1950 Pius XII gave a long, lively defense of this philosophy in Humani Generis which you can read here: vatican.va/holy_father/pi…eneris_en.html

St. Thomas deals with the human soul and its principles ( intellect and will ) in S.T. Part 1, Ques 75-102. A very short summary from the 24 Thomistic Theses approved by Pope Leo XIII is belos.
  1. On the other hand, the human soul subsists of itself. When it can be infused into a sufficiently disposed subject, it is created by God. By its very nature, it is incorruptible and immortal.[15]
  2. This rational soul is united to the body in such a manner that it is the only substantial form of the body. By virtue of his soul a man is a man, an animal, a living thing, a body, a substance and a being. Therefore the soul gives man every essential degree of perfection; moreover, it gives the body a share in the act of being whereby it itself exists.[16]
  3. From the human soul there naturally issue forth powers pertaining to two orders, the organic and the non-organic. The organic powers, among which are the senses, have the composite as their subject. The non-organic powers have the soul alone as their subject. Hence, the intellect is a power intrinsically independent of any bodily organ.[17]
  4. Intellectuality necessarily follows upon immateriality, and furthermore, in such manner that the father the distance from matter, the higher the degree of intellectuality. Any being is the adequate object of understanding in general. But in the present state of union of soul and body, quiddities abstracted from the material conditions of individuality are the proper object of the human intellect.[18]
  5. Therefore, we receive knowledge from sensible things. But since sensible things are not actually intelligible, in addition to the intellect, which formally understands, an active power must be acknowledged in the soul, which power abstracts intelligible likeness or species from sense images in the imagination.[19]
  6. Through these intelligible likenesses or species we directly know universals, i.e., the natures of things. We attain to singulars by our senses, and also by our intellect, when it beholds the sense images. But we ascend to knowledge of spiritual things by analogy.[20]
  7. The will does not precede the intellect but follows upon it. The will necessarily desires that which is presented to it as a good in every respect satisfying the appetite. But it freely chooses among the many goods that are presented to it as desirable according to a changeable judgment or evaluation. Consequently, the choice follows the final practical judgment. But the will is the cause of it being the final one.[21]
Thus Thomas teaches that the intellect and will of man are not dependent upon the brain. Their proper operations are purely non-material and intellectual. Of course the soul does use the body to gather and process and store information and it governs and directs the body in all its functions since it is the life force of the body. This process begins with the senses gathering the data to be sorted and organized. This is all opposed to modern " scientific " notions of man - which have not and cannot be proven. There is also a terminology problem. I would much prefer to use the terms intellect and will in preference to " mind, " since the latter is a popular concept adopted from science and tends to associated with the material organ we know as brain. Or if you prefer we can use " intellect " alone, understanding that " will " is also a part of man’s intellectual operation.

" Self " then would be the awarness we have through the mind reflecting on its operations and its awarness that our bodily sensations/intellect/understanding/willing/remembering is done by us as a single entity or Person. So it would be incorrect to separate ourselves into body and soul - as Descartes did. For all the reasons above.

I think one of the problems today is the " popularzation " of certain esoteric philosophies originating with the " Age of Enlightment, " which lead no where, there is nothing more suited to creating mass confusion than the " herd " instinct to follow after an " enlightened " pied piper.
👍

Last edited by Linusthe2nd; Jan 15, '13 at 9:28 pm. Reason: addition
 
What do you think the mind is?

That is the supreme advantage of denying the existence of self-denial - in spite of the vehement denials of those who reject self-denial! 😉
The mind is the cognitive process residing in your head.

Mind is in fact a process of the soul (life) but cannot operate without the head, so to that extent they are inseparable.

When you said, “existence of self denial,” was that a typo?🙂

ICXC NIKA
 
GEddie;10255635:
How can intangible thoughts, logical principles, mathematical facts and abstract ideas be located in a specific place? What does the cognitive process consist of?

So cognition is restricted to brain activity?

Not at all. To deny the existence of self-denial is equivalent to saying it is impossible to deny oneself anything because there is no self to deny - according to those who reject the existence of the self! I’m using the word “deny” in two senses… 🙂
Cognition is dependent upon brain activity.

I have a problem with the idea of it occurring out in the nothingness.

However, I don’t find any issue with thoughts, memories, cognitions etc. residing at least at first, in the head wherein they were formed. The mind takes place in the head the same way sight takes place in the eyes. (You need your mind as well as your eyes to see, but you see nothing blindfolded.)

Point taken about self denial.

ICXC NIKA
 
The human person , created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual ( CCC 362 ). The term " soul " often refers to human LIFE or the entire human PERSON. But it also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him, that by which he is most especially in God’s image: " soul " signifies the SPIRITUAL PRINCIPLE in man ( CCC 363 ).

Futher, the unity of the soul and the body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the " form " ( substantial form ) of the body, because it is through the spiritual soul that the body made from matter becomes a living human body. Man the PERSON is a composit of spirit and matter, a single nature composed of body and soul (CCC365 )…

St. Thomas deals with the human soul and its principles ( intellect and will ) in S.T. Part 1, Ques 75-102. A very short summary from the 24 Thomistic Theses approved by Pope Leo XIII is belos.
  1. On the other hand, the human soul subsists of itself. When it can be infused into a sufficiently disposed subject, it is created by God. By its very nature, it is incorruptible and immortal.[15]
  2. This rational soul is united to the body in such a manner that it is the only substantial form of the body. By virtue of his soul a man is a man, an animal, a living thing, a body, a substance and a being. Therefore the soul gives man every essential degree of perfection; moreover, it gives the body a share in the act of being whereby it itself exists.[16]
  3. From the human soul there naturally issue forth powers pertaining to two orders, the organic and the non-organic. The organic powers, among which are the senses, have the composite as their subject. The non-organic powers have the soul alone as their subject. Hence, the intellect is a power intrinsically independent of any bodily organ.[17]
  4. Intellectuality necessarily follows upon immateriality, and furthermore, in such manner that the father the distance from matter, the higher the degree of intellectuality. Any being is the adequate object of understanding in general. But in the present state of union of soul and body, quiddities abstracted from the material conditions of individuality are the proper object of the human intellect.[18]
  5. Therefore, we receive knowledge from sensible things. But since sensible things are not actually intelligible, in addition to the intellect, which formally understands, an active power must be acknowledged in the soul, which power abstracts intelligible likeness or species from sense images in the imagination.[19]
  6. Through these intelligible likenesses or species we directly know universals, i.e., the natures of things. We attain to singulars by our senses, and also by our intellect, when it beholds the sense images. But we ascend to knowledge of spiritual things by analogy.[20]
  7. The will does not precede the intellect but follows upon it. The will necessarily desires that which is presented to it as a good in every respect satisfying the appetite. But it freely chooses among the many goods that are presented to it as desirable according to a changeable judgment or evaluation. Consequently, the choice follows the final practical judgment. But the will is the cause of it being the final one.[21]
Thus Thomas teaches that the intellect and will of man are not dependent upon the brain. Their proper operations are purely non-material and intellectual. Of course the soul does use the body to gather and process and store information and it governs and directs the body in all its functions since it is the life force of the body. This process begins with the senses gathering the data to be sorted and organized. This is all opposed to modern " scientific " notions of man - which have not and cannot be proven. There is also a terminology problem. I would much prefer to use the terms intellect and will in preference to " mind, " since the latter is a popular concept adopted from science and tends to associated with the material organ we know as brain. Or if you prefer we can use " intellect " alone, understanding that " will " is also a part of man’s intellectual operation.

" Self " then would be the awarness we have through the mind reflecting on its operations and its awarness that our bodily sensations/intellect/understanding/willing/remembering is done by us as a single entity or Person. So it would be incorrect to separate ourselves into body and soul - as Descartes did. For all the reasons above.

I think one of the problems today is the " popularzation " of certain esoteric philosophies originating with the " Age of Enlightment, " which lead no where, there is nothing more suited to creating mass confusion than the " herd " instinct to follow after an " enlightened " pied piper.
👍

Last edited by Linusthe2nd; Jan 15, '13 at 9:28 pm. Reason: addition
I agree with most - but lost at the last part - of your post!

If the self is awareness then self-awareness is awareness of awareness! Nor is it clear how self-control and self-determination can result solely from awareness. They seem to imply the existence of an entity. As you point out, we have awareness through the mind - which does imply it is a state. But we also refer to “your mind”, “your body”, “your soul” and “yourself” as if they belong to one integrated being. We do not generally say “your person” - which suggests that self is a synonym for person.

In philosophy, religion and daily life mind has always been distinguished from matter. It doesn’t follow that the distinction is true but the onus is on the minority to explain why it is false. Materialism is false because it glorifies impersonal objects and eliminates persons. In such a world it is impossible to be genuinely selfish or unselfish because we are like shellfish! Biological specimens and no more than that…
 
Cognition is dependent upon brain activity.
The most one is entitled to say is that cognition is often related to brain activity.
I have a problem with the idea of it occurring out in the nothingness.
In that case God and spiritual realities such as truth, goodness, freedom and love are problematical…
However, I don’t find any issue with thoughts, memories, cognitions etc. residing at least at first, in the head wherein they were formed. The mind takes place in the head the same way sight takes place in the eyes. (You need your mind as well as your eyes to see, but you see nothing blindfolded.)
Our experience is **always **of our intangible thoughts, emotions and perceptions rather than material objects - which we infer from our perceptions.
Point taken about self denial.
Selflessness is worthless if it is universal! 😉
 
I agree with most - but lost at the last part - of your post!

If the self is awareness then self-awareness is awareness of awareness! Nor is it clear how self-control and self-determination can result solely from awareness. They seem to imply the existence of an entity. As you point out, we have awareness through the mind - which does imply it is a state. But we also refer to “your mind”, “your body”, “your soul” and “yourself” as if they belong to one integrated being. We do not generally say “your person” - which suggests that self is a synonym for person.

In philosophy, religion and daily life mind has always been distinguished from matter. It doesn’t follow that the distinction is true but the onus is on the minority to explain why it is false. Materialism is false because it glorifies impersonal objects and eliminates persons. In such a world it is impossible to be genuinely selfish or unselfish because we are like shellfish! Biological specimens and no more than that…
Well, if we are not an integrated Person, if the " self " does not include the body, then why will the body rise at the final judgment to be reunited with the soul ? And why then will the body share eternal glory or punishment ?

Personally, I never experienced myself as a type of dualism. I always just thought of myself as myself - a single Being. And St. Thomas certainly teaches that. 👍
 
Well, if we are not an integrated Person, if the " self " does not include the body, then why will the body rise at the final judgment to be reunited with the soul ? And why then will the body share eternal glory or punishment ?

Personally, I never experienced myself as a type of dualism. I always just thought of myself as myself - a single Being. And St. Thomas certainly teaches that. 👍
Aquinas does teach substance dualism. It just isn’t the same kind of dualism that Descartes teaches. The intellect is clearly something that is distinct from the body in Aquinas’ teaching.
 
Well, if we are not an integrated Person, if the " self " does not include the body, then why will the body rise at the final judgment to be reunited with the soul ? And why then will the body share eternal glory or punishment ?

Personally, I never experienced myself as a type of dualism. I always just thought of myself as myself - a single Being. And St. Thomas certainly teaches that. 👍
The self does include the body but the body is not essential for our survival as persons. “reunited” implies being separated. Otherwise we would disappear until we are resurrected! This certainly conflicts with the Gospel account of what occurred to Jesus after He died on the Cross.

God made us in His spiritual image and likeness. His essential nature is spiritual not corporeal. Jesus said “God is Spirit”… Resurrection is a privilege not a necessity.
 
The self does include the body but the body is not essential for our survival as persons. “reunited” implies being separated. Otherwise we would disappear until we are resurrected! This certainly conflicts with the Gospel account of what occurred to Jesus after He died on the Cross.

God made us in His spiritual image and likeness. His essential nature is spiritual not corporeal. Jesus said “God is Spirit”… Resurrection is a privilege not a necessity.
You are confusing two states of existence of the Person or Self. Christ was indeed Reserrected in His complete Human and Divine natures in His Divine Person ( Self ).

But when we die our soul is separated from our bodies. During that time the soul exists as an incomplete or unnatural state, since its natural state is as the Form of its particular body. You may argue that it is an incomplete Person, but it would certainly have some " self " awarness, otherwise it would not understand why it was being condemned or rewarded, as the case may be. But perhaps that " self " awarness would be by a special enlightenment provided by Divine action.

But at the last Judgment the body rise and be reunited with its soul and full Personhood would then be restored and there would be full self awarness. 👍
 
You are confusing two states of existence of the Person or Self. Christ was indeed Reserrected in His complete Human and Divine natures in His Divine Person ( Self ).

But when we die our soul is separated from our bodies. During that time the soul exists as an incomplete or unnatural state, since its natural state is as the Form of its particular body. You may argue that it is an incomplete Person, but it would certainly have some " self " awarness, otherwise it would not understand why it was being condemned or rewarded, as the case may be. But perhaps that " self " awarness would be by a special enlightenment provided by Divine action.

But at the last Judgment the body rise and be reunited with its soul and full Personhood would then be restored and there would be full self awarness. 👍
I don’t believe there is any need for “special enlightenment.” The body and soul are never separated because after we die we are no longer in time or space. We are “in” eternity, i.e. the eternal present! There is no hiatus in any aspect of our existence whether it is the soul, self, mind or body. As you pointed out, we are integrated persons. 🙂
 
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