This is the original exchange:
Originally Posted by Linusthe2nd
You are confusing two states of existence of the Person or Self. Christ was indeed Reserrected in His complete Human and Divine natures in His Divine Person ( Self ).
But when we die our soul is separated from our bodies. During that time the soul exists as an incomplete or unnatural state, since its natural state is as the Form of its particular body. You may argue that it is an incomplete Person, but it would certainly have some " self " awarness, otherwise it would not understand why it was being condemned or rewarded, as the case may be. But perhaps that " self " awarness would be by a special enlightenment provided by Divine action.
But at the last Judgment the body will rise and be reunited with its soul and full Personhood would then be restored and there would be full self awareness. END QUOTE
YOUR RESPONSE
I don’t believe there is any need for “special enlightenment.” The body and soul are never separated because after we die we are no longer in time or space. We are “in” eternity, i.e. the eternal present! There is no hiatus in any aspect of our existence whether it is the soul, self, mind or body. As you pointed out, we are integrated persons.END QUOTE
MY Answer
I did not say you held any position contrary to Faith. However, the Church teaches that our souls are separated from our bodies at death, as was Chris’s human soul upon his death. And to seriously entertain or teach otherwise would indeed be an act contrary to Faith. Your suggestion that this does not happen because we are ( from God’s perspective I suppose you mean) in the " eternal present, " ignores the fact that our bodies are still in the grave ( at least still in the physical universe). Indeed, at that time, our human nature exists in two separate " worlds, " one earthly and one eternal ( as you say ), but still separated.
Indeed, at that time, one cannot properly say that we have a human nature because human nature is defined as the union of body and soul in one actually existing substance. And at death that substance has been burst asunder. It no longer exists, we no longer exist ! Only our souls exist, the body has taken on whatever substantial form (s ) arise from our decaying bodily material, our prime matter.
And I think it is seriously missleading to suggest, even figuratively, that we are not separated from our bodies at death.
I did not imply that the Church ever taught that our souls received " special enlilghtnment " at death so it would have some degree of self consciousness and some knowledge of what was happening. As far as I am aware, the Church teaches nothing on that score. But it does seem reasonable that we would have self knowledge and would certainly know the condition of our souls and what was happening.
And Thomas Aquinas does go somewhat into these questions. To what extent, I don’t recall and am not inclined to look into it at the moment. I do believe he said that, at the very least, we will have knowledge of universals. And it was my suggestion ( a suggestion only ) that God could provide, by way of enlightment, that the soul would be supplied with other knowledge, of its past acts and reasoning, so it would be fully aware of why it was being judged the way it was.
One cannot compare the condition of Christ’s two natures upon His death with that of the human soul because his Divinity fully informed His human soul with all the data and intellectual knowledge it needed to " preach " to the dead upon His descent to the " underworld. "
Indeed, at death we are no longer integrated Persons. You seem to disagree. That is where you went wrong. How could we be integrated at death, our Human Personality depends on the actual union of body and soul. But at death this union has been broken. And the Church teaches that this is so. So if the union is broken, how could we be Persons any longer, in the true since of the term? Indeed, Thomas says that upon death our souls are " incomplete substances, " meaning that between of our death and our bodily resurrection our souls exist in an unnatural state because the proper state of the soul is not as a " separated substance " but as the form of the human person - body AND soul.
P.S. You are one of the solid people around here. So I did not intend to upset you. With some around here I might well intend to do just that. Some folks around here are simply insincere and need to be exposed. For them I have little respect and may show it from time to time. Some people here need to be taught a lesson, if that is indeed possible. Not you however.
