What property of the universe leads us to conclude that it required a cause to exist?

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PJY86 said:
Moonstruck,

Of course, it’s absurd to think that everything that exists has an external cause. I hope no one here is trying to argue that. What is true, however, is that everything which exists has a sufficient reason for its existence. The Aristotelian-Thomas position is that there must be some Being who is Being, Pure Act, in order for any potentiality to be actualized. Since the universe as a whole (the collection of all actualized possibilities) is not pure act, it must be actualized by an agent external to the universe. Without a Being who is Pure Act, nothing could be actual.

The materialist must prove the claim that some material agent is itself purely actual and thus the actualizer of all reality. But matter itself is, as some physicists have said, “the closest thing to nothing you can never imagine.” Pure matter is potentially everything, thus actually nothing. Matter is only ever actualized by inhering in a from, which it in turn individuates. If matter itself is pure potency, then there must be some immaterial Being that actualized it, since it is manifest that material beings (form and matter composites) exist. In fact, without a Being who is Pure Act, no existence would even be in potency, and thus even matter must be created by such a Being. This need not be a causal chain of chronological duration, but of ontological dependency. We may not need to posit a temporal cause or beginning of the universe, but we do need to posit a sufficient reason why anything at all exists, i.e., why things which are only potentialities are actualized or why there are potentialities at all.
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Why? Why not just be honest with oursleves and admit that we don’t know and may never know why the anything exists?
 
Moonstruck888 said:
Because it’s impossible to ratify it using either reason or investigation.
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If it were ratified it would no longer be an assumption, would it?
So this doesn’t explain why its a bad assumption.
I don’t presume to know how the Universe exists. So far, I don’t find any of the proposed ideas on the subject compelling in any way.
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Do you trust your senses? What do they tell you about what exists?
 
Moonstruck888 said:
You don’t have to, that’s true… I find it rather strange that you won’t and seem to be getting very flustered about it…

Have I touched a nerve?
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It has no relevance to my true argument, so I really don’t get how you go from making straw-man of my argument to my getting flustered as if to say that you have refuted something that I have intended to argue. Perhaps I have touched a nerve and that is why you want to derail the issue by posing questions that have no relation to what I actually said or meant.
 
davidv said:
If it were ratified it would no longer be an assumption, would it?
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Exactly.
So this doesn’t explain why its a bad assumption.
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All assumptions are to be avoided.
Do you trust your senses? What do they tell you about what exists?
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They interpret what exists in a way that helps me to stay alive. They do not tell me one iota of information regarding the imponderables of metaphysics.
 
MindOverMatter2 said:
It has no relevance to my true argument, so I really don’t get how you go from making straw-man of my argument to my getting flustered as if to say that you have refuted something that I have intended to argue. Perhaps I have touched a nerve and that is why you want to derail the issue by posing questions that have no relation to what I actually said or meant.
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I think it’s an interesting point, that’s all… I think it’s worth exploring. The fact that it came about as a result of a misunderstanding of bad punctuation does not make it any less interesting…
 
Moonstruck888 said:
Why? Why not just be honest with oursleves and admit that we don’t know and may never know why the anything exists?
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Why don’t you be honest and counter his argument with something more cogent than a baseless assertion that he is being dishonest.
 
MindOverMatter2 said:
Why don’t you be honest and counter his argument with something more cogent than a baseless assertion that he is being dishonest.
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I never accused him of mendacity, I was merely making a point that anyone who thinks he or she knows why the Universe is here is in my opinion deluded.

My argument is cogent. No one knows how or why the Universe is here. Anyone who claims to is just plain wrong.
 
Moonstruck888 said:
The only evidence I can see in any of this is the irrefutable evidence that you need some anger management counselling.

Why don’t we leave this till you’ve calmed down, and then maybe you’ll post something that makes sense?
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You need to sit down, take a deep breath, and start observing the reality around you, instead of asking for evidence about that which is self evident.
 
Moonstruck888 said:
I never accused him of mendacity. And my argument is cogent. No one knows how or why the Universe is here.

Anyone who claims to is just plain wrong.
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This is just an assertion, a blind denial. It is not a cogent refutation of his argument.
 
MindOverMatter2 said:
You need to sit down, take a deep breath, and start observing the reality around you, instead of asking for evidence about that which is self evident.
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Okay:

I can observe light reflecting at wavelengths of between 390 and 750nm.
I can observe compressed and rarified regions of air within a 20Hz - 20KHz spectral domain.
I can observe the presence of certain chemicals floating in air.
I can observe the presence of certain chemicals in contact with my tongue.
I can observe the presence of material objects in contact with my epidermis.

I cannot observe what is outside Space and Time. Nor can you. Nor can anyone. I wonder why some of us pretend that we do?
 
Moonstruck888 said:
Okay:

I can observe light reflecting at wavelengths of between 390 and 750nm.
I can observe compressed and rarified regions of air within a 20Hz - 20KHz spectral domain.
I can observe the presence of certain chemicals floating in air.
I can observe the presence of certain chemicals in contact with my tongue.
I can observe the presence of material objects in contact with my epidermis.

I cannot observe what is outside Space and Time. Nor can you. Nor can anyone. I wonder why some of us pretend that we do?
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Tell me…did you do comedy before took up the non-productive career of mass producing straw-men on C.A.F? What you write makes me laugh:rotfl:.
 
MindOverMatter2 said:
Tell me…did you do comedy before took up the non-productive career of mass producing straw-men on C.A.F? What you write makes me laugh:rotfl:.
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MindOverMatter.

You claim to know how and why the Universe is here. You can’t just keep prevaricating indefinitely on this.

Why is it here?
 
MindOverMatter2 said:
I wanted you to entertain me by refuting his actual argument. But I am getting bored and tired now. Maybe tomorrow.
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The thread is about whether there is reason to believe the Universe has a cause. All the points I’m making, unlike your pathetic insults and forced jeering, are on topic.

Why is the Universe here? You claim to know. Enlighten us.
 
Moonstruck888 said:
The thread is about whether there is reason to believe the Universe has a cause. All the points I’m making, unlike your pathetic insults and forced jeering, are on topic.

Why is the Universe here? You claim to know. Enlighten us.
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When you stop playing games.
 
Moonstruck888 said:
Okay, so you can’t answer it. No one could. Why don’t you just admit that you don’t know why the Universe is here? Why this complex charade?
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Believe what you want. What ever makes you sleep easier at night.
 
MindOverMatter2 said:
Believe what you want. What ever makes you sleep easier at night.
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We both know the question cannot be answered. If it could, you would have shut me up long before this…

I suggest you either answer the question, Why is the Universe here?

Or admit you can’t answer it and stop making a fool of yourself.
 
R_Daneel said:
Certainly they are. But then, so is the assumption that “everything that has a beginning must have an external cause for its existence”. Shall we start questioning that, too? I am willing.
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You’re willing to accept that an effect can be its own cause?
R_Daneel said:
No argument can “float” somewhere in mid-air, some original presupposions cannot be avoided.
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Reason requires that presuppositions be rational. “We can say nothing about the creator, except that it acted once, when created the universe” is not such a presupposition.
R_Daneel said:
And to declare that action without consequences is not an action, it cannot be told apart from a “non-action” is not much of a presupposition which is hard to accept. Is it?
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I’m not aware that any of the theists here ever said anything like “the action of the uncaused cause is without consequence”.

The problem you have is that your presuppositions have the effect of defining God as something that does not exist. You beg the question, and seem unable or unwilling to grasp that. Unless that chnages, I see no point in continuing.
 
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