What property of the universe leads us to conclude that it required a cause to exist?

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The temporality of function X is an accidental property.

I am glad we agree it is an accidental property. Why is it relevant how often it happens?
It never doesn’t happen. It is intrinsic to the Universe. You seem to think that if you slap a label on things and wrap them up in a nice little verbal package, you’ve proven something. It doesn’t work that way.

Displacement is a function of velocity multiplied by time. That stands to reason. It is self evident. If something moves in a given speed in a direction for a set amount of time, it will travel a distance that is equal to the speed multiplied by the time. You can test that yourself, very easily, next time you’re out in your motor car.
That knowlege is irrelevant in verifiying a philosophical claim. My un-scientific perspective on relativity is absolutely irrelevant also. You should know full well that you cannot answer the question of this topic using the low sciences; as it is a metaphysical question.
You can answer questions about time using science. You have demonstrated that you don’t actually know the fundamental mathematical properties of time. If I were you I should push off and learn about them before trying to be definitive on a construct that you admit you don’t understand.
 
You can answer questions about time using science. You have demonstrated that you don’t actually know the fundamental mathematical properties of time. If I were you I should push off and learn about them before trying to be definitive on a construct that you admit you don’t understand.
Ultimately though, time is an irreducible property of the universe. It is a fundamental unit. So science does no more to explain time than philosophy, since neither can reduce it to something else. Even in relativity, time dilations are always expressed in relation to measurements of other times. Saint Augustine recognized this 1500 years ago:

“Since the movement of a body is one thing and that by which we measure how long it takes another, who does not perceive which of the two is better called time? For if a body is sometimes moved in different ways and sometimes stands still, then we measure in time not only its movement but also its standing still. We say, “It stood still just as long as it was moved,” and whatever else our measurements either determine or reckon, more or less, as the saying goes. Time, therefore, is not the movement of a body.” (Confessions, Bk.11, Ch.25)

In general relativity, the time a radiowave takes to move through a curved portion of space is longer than it moving through a less curved portion of space, but the two must always be expressed in terms of units of time. Make sense?

-Ryan Vilbig
ryan.vilbig@gmail.com
 
In general relativity, the time a radiowave takes to move through a curved portion of space is longer than it moving through a less curved portion of space, but the two must always be expressed in terms of units of time. Make sense?

-Ryan Vilbig
ryan.vilbig@gmail.com
I don’t really see why that’s a problem. Everything quantifiable must be expressed in units of itself, that stands to reason.
 
I don’t really see why that’s a problem. Everything quantifiable must be expressed in units of itself, that stands to reason.
This fallacy was debunked in Opus Oxoniense II. d. 3, Part 1, qq. 1 - 11;28.
It never doesn’t happen. It is intrinsic to the Universe. You seem to think that if you slap a label on things and wrap them up in a nice little verbal package, you’ve proven something. It doesn’t work that way.
Organising the world according to the causal relationship between agents is a practical philosophy. It is not merely “label slapping”.
Displacement is a function of velocity multiplied by time
Yes; the accident cannot individuate in quid; also Opus Oxoniense II. d. 3, Part 1, qq. 6 - 142-212.
You can answer questions about time using science. You have demonstrated that you don’t actually know the fundamental mathematical properties of time. If I were you I should push off and learn about them before trying to be definitive on a construct that you admit you don’t understand.
Temporality can be predicated in quid and / or in haec as an operative function but not as an individuating medium per se; it can also be described as a personal supposito from the summa totius logicae I, c. Ixii-Ixviii.

Now you are just utilising time as a personal supposito; that can be multiplied within individuls. You however seem to be ignoring the predicate application of time as an accidental attribute to functions.

Contrary to Kant (C of Pure Reason) time is beyond an a priori notion; insofar as it is a substance in and of itself - thus; the consequent that it has malliability is necessarily an active potential; notwithstanding however it cannot be equivocated that the function of malliability is an essential rather than accidental predicate of a particular function; for the consequence of a function or operation can elicit according to it’s end.

You have demonstrated nothing more than time as an accidental personal suppositio that is multiplied accidentally in individuals. It follows from this that it has a per se existance greater than Idealism allows; but not essentially does it follow that time can be predicated essentially to an act or function operating per se.

Charitably speaking; cursory philosophical education is a valuable tool in philosophical discourse on philosophy forum - scrip or no scrip.
 
Charitably speaking; cursory philosophical education is a valuable tool in philosophical discourse on philosophy forum - scrip or no scrip.
The fact that you think you can talk definitively on what time is when you don’t even understand simple equations with time as a function is frankly mind boggling. In my opinion it’s a really shoddy approach, and you just seem to tackle everything from a totally slick “fast food” perspective.

Reading a few text books is no substitute for a proper well rounded education. Academia demands sacrfice, committment. You seem to want to be recognized as an academic without doing anything to earn the status. College degrees aren’t just a piece of paper, they’re a bar that shows you are diligent and serious as well as knowledgable and that you’ve been challenged by other academics. You need to go to school John. You’ll learn about hard work, humility, and earn your status an academic and lose this glib bad attitude.

You throw words like predicate, accidental and necessary around in flowery and semi eloquent paragraphs, but really what you’re saying doesn’t hold water. There’s no substance to it. Nothing behind it.

Time is intrinsic to the Universe. It is necessary to the functioning of the Universe. It is understandable through mathematics and physics. It’s not just one of your arbitrary labels that I’m throwing around. It’s an integral and necessary part of physical reality.
 
The fact that you think you can talk definitively on what time is when you don’t even understand simple equations with time as a function is frankly mind boggling. In my opinion it’s a really shoddy approach, and you just seem to tackle everything from a totally slick “fast food” perspective.
No.

Your equasions are treating the predicate time as an essential function; this reveals an underlying misinderstanding of philosophy. These distinctions have been used for over two thousand years; and if your college education had been worth jack all you would have at least had the roundedness to cover the history of Science; which lies in Philosophers such as Aristotle; Alhazen; Bacon and so forth.

The way you throw around equasions demonstrates a radical presupposition about the nature of reality which is neither scientific nor objective.
You throw words like predicate, accidental and necessary around in flowery and semi eloquent paragraphs, but really what you’re saying doesn’t hold water. There’s no substance to it. Nothing behind it.
Do quote what exactly I said that was incorrect. I understand the supposititative theory of Ockham may be challenging for you; but at least I try to do you the curtesy of looking up whatever you say; you do not seem to be repaying this service; and that to me smacks either of a lack of interest in the truth; academic laziness or an inability to understand. You probably don’t even know the difference between an in quale predication and an in haec predication…
It’s an integral and necessary part of physical reality.
It is entirely plausible that an object can exist without time; thus time is not essential; it is accidental.

The nature of causal functions which bring about said object do not require time (see Quaestiones subtilissimae in Metaphysicam Aristotelis Vol VIII 5a)
Reading a few text books is no substitute for a proper well rounded education.
Textbooks and lectures are just a shortcut or an explanation of people with neither the will or the capacity to get straight to the masters.
 
No.

Your equasions are treating the predicate time as an essential function; this reveals an underlying misinderstanding of philosophy.
Science has superceded philosophy.
The way you throw around equasions demonstrates a radical presupposition about the nature of reality which is neither scientific nor objective.
Not at all. The validity of these equations have been verified experimentally.
Do quote what exactly I said that was incorrect. I understand the supposititative theory of Ockham may be challenging for you; but at least I try to do you the curtesy of looking up whatever you say; you do not seem to be repaying this service; and that to me smacks either of a lack of interest in the truth; academic laziness or an inability to understand. You probably don’t even know the difference between an in quale predication and an in haec predication…
Ockam was scientifically illiterate. I have no interest in reading the ramblings of a 13th century philosopher.

What I don’t know is how to speak Latin and you are deliberately using Lating to obfusticate, although you must realise I could simply put your sentence into Google in quotes and then I would know exactly what these predictions are.

You see, this is part of being academic as well. A real academic would never deliberately make a statement unclear to make himself look clever.

You’re obviously a smart enough boy, you have brains. Use them. Get a real education. Get this nonsense out of your head and go to an accredited College where you can work with motivated and intelligent people. You have the potential. What do you want to do with your life, waste your time trying to score points against me with latin phrases or get out there an get involved in doing something that matters?
It is entirely plausible that an object can exist without time; thus time is not essential; it is accidental.
No. In order to exist, an object must have a duration in time. That’s been proven.
(see Quaestiones subtilissimae in Metaphysicam Aristotelis Vol VIII 5a)
There you go again. Regurgitated second hand Zollnerist nonsense. I’m not interested.
Textbooks and lectures are just a shortcut or an explanation of people with neither the will or the capacity to get straight to the masters.
Spoken like a true coward. You’re either too scared to be educated properly and join the academic arena or too lazy. Either that or you seriously do believe you know more than the men who run Universities. That would be very foolish of you indeed.

A word to the wise. It’s impossible to learn anything when you know everything already.
 
There is no point in time when the “stuff” that comprises the universe did not exist. Why must it have a cause? Or, why must a finite being be caused by something else in order to exist?
We are justified in believing the universe has a cause because we have no knowledge of any causeless phenomenon. The onus is on the person who assumes the universe has no cause to explain how it exists necessarily…
 
Science has superceded philosophy.
When?

I was under the opinion that the Majority of Science springs from empirical epistimology which bases judgements on truth on evidence…

Science requires philosophy to give it a logical justification. Of course; we could say that Science “justifies itself” but we both know this would be ignorant; despite what Good effects a thing brings; it does not mean that thing itself is necessarily true. To use an example for you; Christianity has done many good things; is it necessarily true?

Christianity; like Science - is not True because of what is produces; but it is true because of what it is. (well; at least you will agree with me on Science I assume) - now Philosophy applies and creates logical schematics to outline what truth actually is; and it has verified Science through empirical philosophy - however; that philosophy itself cannot justify it’s own method with it’s own means.
Not at all. The validity of these equations have been verified experimentally.
I wasn’t saying anything contrary to that. I was saying that it was an accidental property - nothing more.
What I don’t know is how to speak Latin and you are deliberately using Lating to obfusticate, although you must realise I could simply put your sentence into Google in quotes and then I would know exactly what these predictions are.
I am not speaking Latin. Although some terms have transferred into English from latin (per se is a common example) These terms are common in philosophy and useage - it is hard to explain them in English from Scratch…
You see, this is part of being academic as well. A real academic would never deliberately make a statement unclear to make himself look clever.
People in Sciences (particularily biology) use the correct terminology. I am using the correct philosophical terminology – how can you be saying “Science supercedes philosophy” when you don’t even know what philosophy is?
No. In order to exist, an object must have a duration in time. That’s been proven.
Evidence or explanation forthcoming?
There you go again. Regurgitated second hand Zollnerist nonsense. I’m not interested.
You accuse me of using obscure words and you say “Zollnerist” - I’ve never heard of it; but after research it appears that the primary source I cited occured many hundreds of years before this “Zollner” existed… Unless I have the wrong person.
A word to the wise. It’s impossible to learn anything when you know everything already.
A word from the wisest (Socrates aprox 400 BC):

*I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing. *.
You’re obviously a smart enough boy, you have brains. Use them. Get a real education. Get this nonsense out of your head and go to an accredited College where you can work with motivated and intelligent people. You have the potential. What do you want to do with your life, waste your time trying to score points against me with latin phrases or get out there an get involved in doing something that matters?
Not to distract from the point; but what since according to you Science has superceded Philosophy; what meaning should I pursue in my life - all my material and social needs are met - I am happy and contented. I have the company of Mozart, Aristotle and James Pimm – what good would a college education do me?
 
In order to exist, an object must have a duration in time. That’s been proven.
The present moment has no duration in time, yet it exists. If we try to take an interval to designate the present moment, it can always be divided into a past part and a future part and is thus not the present. The present moment, therefore, occupies no duration of time, or as Augustine says: “the present has no space” for if it did it could be divided into the past and future. Yet we do say that the present moment exists, even though it has no duration in time. Unless you’re saying that the present moment does not exist?

-Ryan Vilbig
ryan.vilbig@gmail.com
 
You accuse me of using obscure words and you say “Zollnerist” - I’ve never heard of it; but after research it appears that the primary source I cited occured many hundreds of years before this “Zollner” existed… Unless I have the wrong person.
Zollner was a 19th Century metaphysicist who spent his career trying to prove the existence of a fourth spatial dimension. Needless to say, he failed.
Not to distract from the point; but what since according to you Science has superceded Philosophy; what meaning should I pursue in my life - all my material and social needs are met - I am happy and contented. I have the company of Mozart, Aristotle and James Pimm – what good would a college education do me?
I think maybe you’ve been watching too much Good Will Hunting, John…

It would teach you how to think. There’s more to life than spending money and sitting listening to classical music.
 
The present moment has no duration in time, yet it exists. If we try to take an interval to designate the present moment, it can always be divided into a past part and a future part and is thus not the present. The present moment, therefore, occupies no duration of time, or as Augustine says: “the present has no space” for if it did it could be divided into the past and future. Yet we do say that the present moment exists, even though it has no duration in time. Unless you’re saying that the present moment does not exist?

-Ryan Vilbig
ryan.vilbig@gmail.com
The present moment is not an object.
 
It would teach you how to think. There’s more to life than spending money and sitting listening to classical music.
With an atheistic worldview… is there?
Zollner was a 19th Century metaphysicist who spent his career trying to prove the existence of a fourth spatial dimension. Needless to say, he failed.
That’s his loss. Metaphysics starts at observed reality; the fact Zollner was a fool is irrelevant to the countless metaphysicians who based their understandings on evidence and logic. Any metaphysical claims that do not have a foundation in logic & evidence are generally speaking - unfounded.
The present moment is not an object.
You equivocate; if time is real then time is an object.
 
I wasn’t saying anything contrary to that. I was saying that it was an accidental property - nothing more.
So what?
People in Sciences (particularily biology) use the correct terminology. I am using the correct philosophical terminology – how can you be saying “Science supercedes philosophy” when you don’t even know what philosophy is?
I could say the same thing to you about the paucity of your knowledge of basic science. What I do know is that science is power… You don’t build Saturn V rockets by pontificating on metaphysics.
Evidence or explanation forthcoming?
If you can’t even wrap your head around distance = speed x time, there’s no chance I can explain in scientific terms why an object needs a duration to you.
A word from the wisest (Socrates aprox 400 BC):
*I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing. *.
A shrewd maxim. Why don’t you try applying it instead of quoting it?
 
If you can’t even wrap your head around distance = speed x time, there’s no chance I can explain in scientific terms why an object needs a duration to you.
I understand that speed x time = distance; but this is a measurement not a causal interaction. What I am trying to say is you are assuming because the numbers add up that the particular method that it is correct; and because the arbitrary agencies involved fit; that they are the causal agencies.

Accepting something works is different from understanding why something works. Discerning causal interactions and essential/accidental characteristics is fundemental in organising knowlege.

Discovering what a thing is is more important than discovering how it works - at least for the Philosopher.
 
The 1971 experiment has been replicated. The only reason you don’t accept Special Relativity is because you are scientifically illiterate. If you were willing to employ a little effort and actually investigate what ratification there is for Special Relativity, you could remedy that, but you’re not, you’d rather deliver the sermon on the moral highground from a flood plain of unadulterated ignorance.

I’m just about done even reading any more posts from you…
Then read one of mine. I am fully behind JohnDamian. And John, Moonstruck’s ‘The only reason you don’t accept Special Relativity is because you are scientifically illiterate,’ is par for the course.

I was at that lecture at Trinity College in Dublin in 1996 when engineer A. G. Kelly PhD read a paper that, while speculative itself, did show the STR had been empirically falsified many times. Nevertheless, within the audience there were professors who were employed by that same university to teach this nonsense to students. Within minutes of Kelly’s unassailable thesis, these same Relativists were up on their feet telling all and sundry that Kelly ‘really didn’t fully comprehend’ the theory he had just falsified. I have no doubt the next day Kelly was history and the STR was being taught to a new batch of physics students in that same world-renowned university in whose lecture hall the Special Theory was seen for what it really is, patent intellectual nonsense, mathematical magic.
Kelly later died and his relatives had his thesis printed up in a book. They sent me a copy.

The Clock Fraud

‘Experiments carrying atomic clocks around the earth on jumbo jets have verified this scenario [Relativity].’ — Pratchett, Stewart and Cohen

‘The clock in the aircraft flying towards the west records more time than the twin travelling in the opposite direction.’ — Stephen Hawking.

Now look up Paul Davies’s How to Build a Time Machine and one will find the same old story about the supposed verification of the Special Theory attained in 1971 when they placed clocks in aeroplanes and pitted them against each another. Elsewhere we find assertions that the Special Theory has been proven many times in a laboratory, but the truth is something else:

‘Tests that purported to confirm the requirement of Special relativity, that moving macroscopic clocks run slow, were carried out by Hefele & Keating by flying atomic clocks in opposite directions around the earth. These tests have been shown to be seriously flawed and to provide no such evidence (Kelly 1995). That paper relied on estimates derived from the graphs published in 1972 by Hafele and Keating. The original test results, contained in an internal report (Hafele, 1971) have now been obtained direct from the United States Naval Observatory (USNO). These confirm that the conclusions in Kelly (1995) are correct. Hafele, in that report stated: “Most people (including myself) would be reluctant to agree that the time gained by any one of the clocks is indicative of anything” and “the difference between theory and measurement is disturbing.” A full analysis of the shortcomings of the tests is given in a separate paper (Kelly, 1996). This shows that a test, with an accurate improvement of two orders of magnitude, would be required before any credence could be placed in the results of such a test… Further practical proof of the Sagnac effect is in the measurement of the relative time keeping of standard clock-stations around the earth. It is found that, when signals are sent from one station to another, allowance has to be made for the fact that the signals do not travel at the same speed Eastward and Westward around the globe (Saburi et al, 1976) —Y. Saburi, M.Yamamoto and K. Harada, 1976 IEEE Trans. 1M25 No 4 473-7."— A.G. Kelly, A.G. Kelly: A New Theory on the Behaviour of Light, The Institution of engineers of Ireland, Feb. 1996., pp.7-8.
 
As another poster has already pointed out, the “present” is not time.
The present is a discernible moment in time. Thus it is an object.

The fact that by the time I have typed this; what was the present has gone does not stop what was the present from being a discernible moment in time - that is to say 23:34:15.xxxxx’ (English Time).

As a discernible moment of time it is an object; even though it has passed.
 
Then read one of mine. I am fully behind JohnDamian. And John, Moonstruck’s ‘The only reason you don’t accept Special Relativity is because you are scientifically illiterate,’ is par for the course.
Code:
 Kelly later died and his relatives had his thesis printed up in a book. They sent me a copy.
The Clock Fraud
I don’t know if it is refreshing or alarming; but a Scientist agreeing with me!!!

If you still have a copy of that book; could you send me it’s ISBN number so I may obtain a copy?
 
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