What! (Purgatory)

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From this very website:
Q: Are Catholics to believe that the cleansing fire of purgatory is real physical fire?
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A:There are only a few propositions that the Church has dogmatically defined concerning purgatory:
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* There is purification after death.
* This purification involves some kind of pain.
* Those being purified can be assisted by prayers, devotions, and Masses.
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Other questions concerning purgatory (e.g., its duration, whether it is a place, whether it involves actively inflicted punishments, whether it involves material fire) are speculative.
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According to Ludwig Ott:
The Latin Fathers, the schoolmen, and many theologians of modern times, in view of 1 Corinthians 3:15, assume a physical fire. However, the biblical foundation for this is inadequate. Out of consideration for the separated Greeks, who reject the notion of a purifying fire, the official declarations of the councils speak only of purifying punishments (poena purgatoriae), not of purifying fire. (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, TAN, 485)
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catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/dailyquestions

There is pain in Purgatory? :frighten:
 
Most certainly. What kind of a deterrent would Purgatory be if it was a Club Med on the way to Paradise?!

“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” (Matthew:5 25-26 NIV)

“Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism.” (Colossians 3:25)

“That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.” (Luke 12:47-48)

“Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.” (1 Peter 4:8)

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html
 
Yes, there is pain in Purgatory. The pain that the spirit feels is more acute than the body. But so also is the joy the spirit is capable of.

Remember, though your sins can be forgiven in this world, the temporal punishment due to those sins must be expiated. At least some expiation takes place in this world. It is possible to have all sins be expiated while in this world. But few are the souls that go straight to Heaven. Most of the time, there needs to be more expiation of sins before you can see the Face of God. The balance is expiated through Purgatorial suffering.

The pain is not always in the form of fire. The punishment will fit the crime. For example, in the book “Purgatory” by Father F.X. Shouppe, which has Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur and is a book i highly recommend:

-being pierced with swords and cut into pieces were hypocrits.
-crushed under a press were souls who were impatient or disobedient.
-molten lead poured into mouths of liars.
-smelted like metal in a furnace are the ones attached to goods of this world.
-confined to a filthy prison are the impure souls.
-drowned into a lake of molten lead are those who showed ingratitude towards God.
-those who had no major vices suffered each punishment to a degree less than those that sinned through habit.

A man who had a habit of gambling in Purgatory he was forced to hold a hand of burning cards and a purse with his unlawful gains that came from gambling.

A notary in Purgatory was forced to hold a flaming pen for drawing up illegal deeds.

And this one:
One holy man learned he was to die soon and implored another holy man to have one Mass said for the repose of his soul as soon as he died. The man died the next morning and the other man had a Mass said for him 15 minutes after he died. Yet, as the man was going up to Heaven, inquired as to why it had taken a year before the Mass was said for him.

And many, many other eye-opening stories.

Also, Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich relates that some souls are sent to exile in some remote part of this planet or even on other planets in the universe, the loneliness being their punishment.
 
I have to be honest, I don’t believe God is going to punish and torture His people…

“It is finish” - Jesus
 
TristanCross said:
I have to be honest, I don’t believe God is going to punish and torture His people…

“It is finish” - Jesus
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Whether you believe it or not, it’s still true. Remember, King David, after committing adultery and murder, repented and was forgiven for his sins, but he still had to undergo temporal punishment for his sins (in this case, his son died). Can we expect less? Jesus died so that we could be forgiven our sins and spend eternity in heaven; He did NOT die so that we wouldn’t have to undergo temporal punishment for our sins. Besides, while purgatory is a place of suffering, it’s more than anything a HAPPY place. Why? Because the souls there are guaranteed heaven, and they know they’re going to get there eventually. We have to be PERFECT to enter heaven, and the souls in purgatory want to be made perfect so they can get there.
 
TristanCross said:
I have to be honest, I don’t believe God is going to punish and torture His people…

“It is finish” - Jesus
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Haha!!!

Think about each time you sin. You are punishing and torturing Christ all over again. Every sin is a nail in His hand and a spear in His side.

Purgatory is in the Bible (the Catholic Bible, not the Protestant Bible) so it is absolutely true.
 
David and Machiu just contradicted each other :ehh:

Scripture also says:

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

And how does one know they are in Purgatory and not Hell? I don’t see a difference…

So I’m going to be crushed under a press and molten lead is going to be poured into my mouth? Sorry, but I don’t think God is going to be doing that to His Elect. For God so loved the world…not hated.
 
Those holy souls in Purgatory undergo their purification in peace, although it be painful.

Their intensity for God grows as they are purged of their sins and attachments. It’s a good thing and its a necessary one.

If there were no such thing as Purgatory, we would all end up in hell, as nothing unclean can enter heaven as the Book of Revelation says.
 
TristanCross said:
David and Machiu just contradicted each other :ehh:

Scripture also says:

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

And how does one know they are in Purgatory and not Hell? I don’t see a difference…

So I’m going to be crushed under a press and molten lead is going to be poured into my mouth? Sorry, but I don’t think God is going to be doing that to His Elect. For God so loved the world…not hated.
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You’ve got it all wrong. Here, let me help:

First of all, Purgatory is the like Heaven’s front porch. It is NOT a physical “place” where things are “done” to us. It is a state of being, like Heaven and Hell. We don’t know exactly what happens in Purgatory, but one thing is for certain: It cleanses us for Heaven. If you get into Purgatory, you are assured of Heaven. But you must be cleansed before you enter. The stain of sin must be removed.

Also, you are equating punishment with hatred. That’s not logically necessarily the case at all. In fact, He loves us and gives us every chance in the world- it’s up to US to accept Him.
 
stuart12 said:
Those holy souls in Purgatory undergo their purification in peace, although it be painful.

Their intensity for God grows as they are purged of their sins and attachments. It’s a good thing and its a necessary one.

If there were no such thing as Purgatory, we would all end up in hell, as nothing unclean can enter heaven as the Book of Revelation says.
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I honestly think this is sick in thinking. Is God to small to purify us at the moment we die? :eek:

Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins (Romans 5:8). Isaiah 53:5 declares, “But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed.” Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus’ suffering was insufficient. To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus (1 John 2:2).

I just found a verse that kinda destorys Catholicism (IMO):

Hebrews 7:27
Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.
 
TristanCross said:
I honestly think this is sick in thinking. Is God to small to purify us at the moment we die? :eek:

Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins (Romans 5:8). Isaiah 53:5 declares, “But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed.” Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus’ suffering was insufficient. To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus (1 John 2:2).

I just found a verse that kinda destorys Catholicism (IMO):

Hebrews 7:27
Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.
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Nonsense. You wouldn’t even know that this passage is from Scripture if it were not for the Catholic Church.

Our Sacrifice is that of Christ. It is only ONE SACRIFICE. Not plural, what the passage says. The killing of animals had to be done, over and over again, to different animals.

The Mass re-presents the Sacrifice of Calvary. It is a transcend event as it atones for all sins ever committed and will ever be committed. Remember that Christ is still in the heavenly sanctuary, pleading before the Father for us.
 
Fine.

Does someone…anyone have MSN Windows Live? I want to talk to someone in real time about all this. It would help.
 
TristanCross said:
I honestly think this is sick in thinking. Is God to small to purify us at the moment we die? :eek:

Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins (Romans 5:8). Isaiah 53:5 declares, “But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed.” Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus’ suffering was insufficient. To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus (1 John 2:2).

I just found a verse that kinda destorys Catholicism (IMO):

Hebrews 7:27
Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.
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Wow you are just copying and pasting the old, tired Protestant lines, aren’t you?

At any rate, you’re wrong. This can be found on Catholic.com:

catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9109fea1.asp
Unlike priests in the Old Testament, Jesus does not make daily offerings of distinct sacrifices (Heb. 7:27). On the other hand, “every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; hence it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer” (Heb. 8:3). Does this mean that Jesus’ “once for all” sacrifice is exclusively past? Or does it not assert that Jesus’ sacrifice, precisely because of its “once for all” character, has become the one perfect and perpetual offering he continually presents in heaven on our behalf? The conclusion is that Jesus no longer bleeds, suffers, or dies (Heb. 9:25-26). He is enthroned in his resurrected and glorified human body as our High Priest and King (Heb. 7:1-3).
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It is precisely in this manner that the Father beholds a perfect and perpetual offering in the living body of the Son. If Jesus’ offering has ceased, there would be no basis for his ongoing priesthood, but Jesus’ priesthood is said to be permanent and to “continue forever” (Heb.7:24). Moreover, there would be no reason for an earthly altar if Jesus’ offering is ended, which is what I believed as an Evangelical Protestant–until I discovered that Scripture teaches the reverse: “We have an altar from which those who serve the tent have no right to eat” (Heb. 13:10). The “once for all” character of Jesus’ sacrifice points to the perfection and perpetuity of his offering. It can be re-presented upon our altars in the Eucharist so that “through him [we] continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God” (Heb. 13:15).
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Hebrews 13:15 was taken from its context:

Hebrews 13:15 DRB
(15) By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise always to God, that is to say, the fruit of lips confessing to his name.
 
Again:

Does someone…anyone have MSN Windows Live? I want to talk to someone in real time about all this. It would help.
 
TristanCross said:
Hebrews 13:15 was taken from its context:

Hebrews 13:15 DRB
(15) By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise always to God, that is to say, the fruit of lips confessing to his name.
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“confess” in this context means “give thanks to.”

Are you seriously going to keep trying to give us these semantic wording differences as proof of Catholicism being wrong? :yawn:
 
:confused:I am wondering why he is attracted to Catholicism in the first place.
 
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