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TristanCross
Guest
No. I’m just saying that particular verse was out of context
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Sancto_Spiritu
Guest
Judging by the passages that “destroy Catholicism” you’ve quoted, it’s obvious you’re not too concerned about context.No. I’m just saying that particular verse was out of context
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TristanCross
Guest
Can we all just shut up? Sorry for posting that verse…
You know, I can’t stand some of you guys. Saying things like “I am wondering why he is attracted to Catholicism in the first place” just pisses me off.
Learn2Jesus.
You know, I can’t stand some of you guys. Saying things like “I am wondering why he is attracted to Catholicism in the first place” just pisses me off.
Learn2Jesus.
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NeedImprovement
Guest
Sometimes the richness of tradition can help widen the scope of our vision on certain subjects. There are all types of anguish…physical, mental, spiritual and they run the gamut from one end to the other as they relate to intensity and duration of any specific suffering or anguish.
So what if the holy souls in Purgatory could answer you with one voice ?.. What do you think they would tell you if you asked them about their suffering ?
Here’s what they told St. Faustina Kowalska on one of her visits there:
The pertinent portion of her diary can be viewed at this link:
http://www.pwhs-mfi.org/newsletter/news13/st_faustina.htm
**Diary No. 20
(Vision of Purgatory)**
“…One day I asked the Lord, ‘Lord, who else should I pray for?’ Jesus said that on the following night He would let me know for whom I should always pray for.
The following night, I saw my Guardian Angel who asked me to follow him. In a moment I was in a misty place full of fire in which there was a great crowd of suffering souls. They were praying fervently, but to no avail, for themselves; only we can come to their aid. The flames which were burning them did not touch me at all. My Guardian Angel did not leave me for an instant. I asked these souls what their greatest suffering was. They answered me in one voice that their greatest torment was longing for God. I saw Our Lady visiting the souls in Purgatory. The souls call her ‘The Star of the Sea.’ She brings them refreshment. I wanted to talk with them some more, but my Guardian Angel beckoned me to leave. We went out of the prison of suffering. * which said, My mercy does not want this, but justice demands it. Since that time, I am in closer communion with the suffering souls.”*
Their greatest suffering is their longing for God…Almost as if all that was in the way -which previously impeded their love for God is being gradually removed while they fall ever more deeply in love with Him. Has any of us ever fallen deeply in love with someone and then experienced the heartache of not being able to be with that person ?
Purgatory is very real. Every Eucharistic prayer said during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass
has a section which intercedes for the holy souls in Purgatory.
Lex orandi lex credendi
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TristanCross
Guest
I’m sorry. I’m just trying to find some damn truth. God damn me.
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denver_faithful
Guest
Hey. I sent you a PM with my name in it so you can add me on facebook. I look forward to hearing from you.
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Sancto_Spiritu
Guest
WOW. That’s trust, right there. I wouldn’t give my name out to anybody online.
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stuart12
Guest
You are coming on here and asking pretty simple questions on Catholicism, and we have answered adequately. Even though we answer sufficiently, you refuse to concede. Bringing up Bible verse after Bible verse, shows the authority of the Catholic Church (who wrote the N.T. and compiled it).
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NeedImprovement
Guest
Well the truth about Purgatory is that we aren’t damned - it’s an instrument of God’s Mercy.
Don’t worry too much. Fr. John Corapi says that asking questions is a sign of intelligence -not of ignorance
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Victorious
Guest
How does this destroy Catholicism? This is exactly what the Church teaches.
Hebrews 12:5-6:
Isaiah 55:8-9:I honestly think this is sick in thinking. Is God to small to purify us at the moment we die?
You mean eat, drink and be merry, and put it all on Christ’s tab?
How do you cope with Colossians 1:24-26:
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ejb21
Guest
I’ve heard it said that the greatest pain in purgatory is the temporary separation from Jesus after our particular judgement. One of the great things about purgatory is that we can’t be tempted and we can’t sin.
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GeorgeSword
Guest
Check your PMs, I’ll talk to you in MSN if you want. C.S. Lewis explained Purgatory very well: "Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter me. And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if those for the dead were forbidden. At our age, the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to him?
I believe in Purgatory.
Mind you, the Reformers had good reasons for throwing doubt on the ‘Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory’ as that Romish doctrine had then become…
The right view returns magnificently in Newman’s DREAM. There, if I remember it rightly, the saved soul, at the very foot of the throne, begs to be taken away and cleansed. It cannot bear for a moment longer ‘With its darkness to affront that light’. Religion has claimed Purgatory.
Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, ‘It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy’? Should we not reply, ‘With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleaned first.’ ‘It may hurt, you know’ - ‘Even so, sir.’
I assume that the process of purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it. But I don’t think the suffering is the purpose of the purgation. I can well believe that people neither much worse nor much better than I will suffer less than I or more. . . . The treatment given will be the one required, whether it hurts little or much.
My favourite image on this matter comes from the dentist’s chair. I hope that when the tooth of life is drawn and I am ‘coming round’,’ a voice will say, ‘Rinse your mouth out with this.’ This will be Purgatory. The rinsing may take longer than I can now imagine. The taste of this may be more fiery and astringent than my present sensibility could endure. But . . . it will [not] be disgusting and unhallowed."
I believe in Purgatory.
Mind you, the Reformers had good reasons for throwing doubt on the ‘Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory’ as that Romish doctrine had then become…
The right view returns magnificently in Newman’s DREAM. There, if I remember it rightly, the saved soul, at the very foot of the throne, begs to be taken away and cleansed. It cannot bear for a moment longer ‘With its darkness to affront that light’. Religion has claimed Purgatory.
Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, ‘It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy’? Should we not reply, ‘With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleaned first.’ ‘It may hurt, you know’ - ‘Even so, sir.’
I assume that the process of purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it. But I don’t think the suffering is the purpose of the purgation. I can well believe that people neither much worse nor much better than I will suffer less than I or more. . . . The treatment given will be the one required, whether it hurts little or much.
My favourite image on this matter comes from the dentist’s chair. I hope that when the tooth of life is drawn and I am ‘coming round’,’ a voice will say, ‘Rinse your mouth out with this.’ This will be Purgatory. The rinsing may take longer than I can now imagine. The taste of this may be more fiery and astringent than my present sensibility could endure. But . . . it will [not] be disgusting and unhallowed."
- C.S. Lewis, Letters To Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer, chapter 20, paragraphs 7-10, pages 108-109
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Victorious
Guest
Ummm…no. If the Catholic Church is the true Church – and she is – then NOBODY has the right to throw out ANY of her doctrines on ANY pretext. Furthermore, her doctrines do not change. That somebody in the Church might have erroneous views concerning a doctrine does not mean that the doctrine has thereby changed.
The thing that we forget time and time again about God is that He is not only Mercy, but also Justice. He does not want to punish us, but His Justice requires to be satisfied. “Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.” (Matthew 5:25-26.)
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Victorious
Guest
TristanCross, here is something else to ponder: 1 Corinthians 3:10-15:
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GeorgeSword
Guest
The ‘Romish Doctrine’ part was Lewis speaking, not me. I think he makes a good case of Purgatory, and it didn’t feel right to me to censor that from it is all.
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BernadetteM
Guest
Do any of us really know what Purgatory is like or what Heaven is really like? There are hints about Heaven in Revelations but we surely don’t have many answers.
I saw two different shows on TV many years ago, I don’t know whether what these men said happened to them really did or not, but I do remember that at the time I had been very hurt by some I loved and trusted deeply. I was struggling with anger towards him.
It was late at night that I saw these separate shows and I had to get up early for work, I wondered why I wanted to watch them and was drawn to them.
The stories were very similar, both men had led very sinful lifes and had harmed many people, not in a physical way from what I understood. Each of them went through what they considered death and returned to life.
What I found fascinating was that when they died they went to a place or a time and each had the same experience. All the sins they had committed towards others, the pain and suffering they had caused was turned towards them and in a much more painful way.
I felt that God was speaking to me and telling me that (if you want to call it) vengence is mine says the Lord. It actually gave me peace as I wanted the person who had hurt me to suffer very much and had wished a horrible fate on him. I was shown that I am not to judge anyone or wish the worst for them. God also showed me in a dream what hell is like, it was more than a dream and I awoke and asked God not to send this man to hell. I pray now for his soul all the time.
From my experience and I am not saying that this is Purgatory, but I think that if it is Purgatory whatever we did to harm others comes back to us 100 fold.
Maybe this was something just for me at the time as my heart felt like it had been broken and these events really turned me around as I had never wished for others to suffer before and today I try not to be harsh in my judgments for fear of how I will be judged. I can’t say I am always victorious there are times when I see evil that I hope the person will pay.
Well that is just my opinion and it is very personal.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
Bernadette
I saw two different shows on TV many years ago, I don’t know whether what these men said happened to them really did or not, but I do remember that at the time I had been very hurt by some I loved and trusted deeply. I was struggling with anger towards him.
It was late at night that I saw these separate shows and I had to get up early for work, I wondered why I wanted to watch them and was drawn to them.
The stories were very similar, both men had led very sinful lifes and had harmed many people, not in a physical way from what I understood. Each of them went through what they considered death and returned to life.
What I found fascinating was that when they died they went to a place or a time and each had the same experience. All the sins they had committed towards others, the pain and suffering they had caused was turned towards them and in a much more painful way.
I felt that God was speaking to me and telling me that (if you want to call it) vengence is mine says the Lord. It actually gave me peace as I wanted the person who had hurt me to suffer very much and had wished a horrible fate on him. I was shown that I am not to judge anyone or wish the worst for them. God also showed me in a dream what hell is like, it was more than a dream and I awoke and asked God not to send this man to hell. I pray now for his soul all the time.
From my experience and I am not saying that this is Purgatory, but I think that if it is Purgatory whatever we did to harm others comes back to us 100 fold.
Maybe this was something just for me at the time as my heart felt like it had been broken and these events really turned me around as I had never wished for others to suffer before and today I try not to be harsh in my judgments for fear of how I will be judged. I can’t say I am always victorious there are times when I see evil that I hope the person will pay.
Well that is just my opinion and it is very personal.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
Bernadette
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RosaryCrusader
Guest
Tristan,
You need to understant the concept of temporal punishment. St. Paul tells us that Christ chastises those whom He loves. A parent who doesn’t discipline his child does not truly love him.
From the Catechism:
***The punishments of sin **
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.[83]
1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the “new man.”[84]*
You need to understant the concept of temporal punishment. St. Paul tells us that Christ chastises those whom He loves. A parent who doesn’t discipline his child does not truly love him.
From the Catechism:
***The punishments of sin **
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.[83]
1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the “new man.”[84]*
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RosaryCrusader
Guest
From the old Baltimore Catechism:
*Q. 1381. What is Purgatory?
A. Purgatory is the state in which those suffer for a time who die guilty of venial sins, or without having satisfied for the punishment due to their sins.
Q. 1382. Why is this state called Purgatory?
A. This state is called Purgatory because in it the souls are purged or purified from all their stains; and it is not, therefore, a permanent or lasting state for the soul.
**Q. 1383. Are the souls in Purgatory sure of their salvation?
**
A. The souls in Purgatory are sure of their salvation, and they will enter heaven as soon as they are completely purified and made worthy to enjoy that presence of God which is called the Beatific Vision.
Q. 1384. Do we know what souls are in Purgatory, and how long they have to remain there?
A. We do not know what souls are in Purgatory nor how long they have to remain there; hence we continue to pray for all persons who have died apparently in the true faith and free from mortal sin. They are called the faithful departed.
Q. 1385. Can the faithful on earth help the souls in Purgatory?
A. The faithful on earth can help the souls in Purgatory by their prayers, fasts, alms, deeds; by indulgences, and by having Masses said for them.
Q. 1386. Since God loves the souls in Purgatory, why does He punish them?
A. Though God loves the souls in Purgatory, He punishes them because His holiness requires that nothing defiled may enter heaven and His justice requires that everyone be punished or rewarded according to what he deserves.*
*Q. 1381. What is Purgatory?
A. Purgatory is the state in which those suffer for a time who die guilty of venial sins, or without having satisfied for the punishment due to their sins.
Q. 1382. Why is this state called Purgatory?
A. This state is called Purgatory because in it the souls are purged or purified from all their stains; and it is not, therefore, a permanent or lasting state for the soul.
**Q. 1383. Are the souls in Purgatory sure of their salvation?
**
A. The souls in Purgatory are sure of their salvation, and they will enter heaven as soon as they are completely purified and made worthy to enjoy that presence of God which is called the Beatific Vision.
Q. 1384. Do we know what souls are in Purgatory, and how long they have to remain there?
A. We do not know what souls are in Purgatory nor how long they have to remain there; hence we continue to pray for all persons who have died apparently in the true faith and free from mortal sin. They are called the faithful departed.
Q. 1385. Can the faithful on earth help the souls in Purgatory?
A. The faithful on earth can help the souls in Purgatory by their prayers, fasts, alms, deeds; by indulgences, and by having Masses said for them.
Q. 1386. Since God loves the souls in Purgatory, why does He punish them?
A. Though God loves the souls in Purgatory, He punishes them because His holiness requires that nothing defiled may enter heaven and His justice requires that everyone be punished or rewarded according to what he deserves.*
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RosaryCrusader
Guest
The following is the age old example of temporal punishment and reparation:
A boy throws a rock through the neighbor’s window. The boy repents and asks the neighbor for forgiveness and the neighbor happily forgives. Yet, the window must be still be repaired. The boy is forgiven but must pay to replace the broken window.
You can also keep in mind that many a great Saints had said that a death well received, in complete submission to God’s will, can pretty much pay off your debt. Most people recoil from the thought of suffering - yet it’s redemptive and can work good.
A boy throws a rock through the neighbor’s window. The boy repents and asks the neighbor for forgiveness and the neighbor happily forgives. Yet, the window must be still be repaired. The boy is forgiven but must pay to replace the broken window.
You can also keep in mind that many a great Saints had said that a death well received, in complete submission to God’s will, can pretty much pay off your debt. Most people recoil from the thought of suffering - yet it’s redemptive and can work good.
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simple_soul
Guest
Hear is some food for thought and please correct me if it does not hold true to the Church’s Dogma.
I heard a story of a soul that lived a life of self love and when the body died the soul could not stand the sight of GOD in His Complete, Perfect, and Unconditional love for it. So it fled from Him. It was not God who cast the soul away. Maybe “purgatory” is similar. If when we die we have not learned to love God with our whole heart, our whole mind, and our whole soul then yes the transition from earth to His Glory will have a few bumps in it. But I think the bumps will be more like self inflicted bumps than God inflicted bumps.
I heard a story of a soul that lived a life of self love and when the body died the soul could not stand the sight of GOD in His Complete, Perfect, and Unconditional love for it. So it fled from Him. It was not God who cast the soul away. Maybe “purgatory” is similar. If when we die we have not learned to love God with our whole heart, our whole mind, and our whole soul then yes the transition from earth to His Glory will have a few bumps in it. But I think the bumps will be more like self inflicted bumps than God inflicted bumps.
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