What! (Purgatory)

[bpbasilphx]

The pain of Purgatory is the sharply felt longing for full union with and vision of God which is being temporarily deferred. So St. Catherine of Sienna and others have said.

It might be better to think of this condition as an anteroom into Heaven rather than a mild case of hell. Those there are indeed among the saved; they simply have not received the fullness of their reward yet.

Think of it as going from a pitch black room to suddenly full sunlight on a Phoenix summer’s day. It’s going to take your eyes a while to get used to it. You may be temporarily blinded, and it could even hurt a bit–but it’s part of the process of getting used to the light and to be able to use it and rejoice in it.

(Of course, any analogy will fall apart if you press it too far.)

 

[TLM08]

I have to be honest, I don’t believe God is going to punish and torture His people…

“It is finish” - Jesus

Purgatory is where we are supposed to be purified and perfected in holiness through horrific suffering infinitely more painful than the greatest physical pain experienced on earth according to Thomas Aquinas in order that we may become fit to enter heaven. With this terror looming over God’s children there isn’t much room for love. This is not an optional belief. At the risk of mortal sin and eternity in Hell, catholics MUST believe in Purgatory.

However, the Bible say this about perfection and purification:

**“Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest (Christ) had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.” Hebrews 10:11-14

"After he (Christ) had provided purification * for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven." Hebrews 1:3*

Knowing what scripture says about purification frees us up to love God instead of living in constant fear and despair.

 

[TLM08]

Although these days, a small stipend is generally given to have masses said in order to help those in purgarory, during the middle ages entire fortunes were handed over to church officials in order hopes of even the possibility of freeing loved ones from the flames of purgatory.

The problem was that the church cannot tell you how long anyone will be in purgatory or how many masses or donated money will be enough. The financial abuse of the faithful during the middle ages was incredible.

Although the church is still happy to take the money, I do give them a lot of credit for putting a stop to the abuses.

 

[Victorious]

With this terror looming over God’s children there isn’t much room for love. This is not an optional belief. At the risk of mortal sin and eternity in Hell, catholics MUST believe in Purgatory…Knowing what scripture says about purification frees us up to love God instead of living in constant fear and despair.

There is nothing despairing about Purgatory. Purgatory is temporary. It is also salutary. Question: what is more likely to deter people from sinning in the first place: the fact of incurring temporal punishment for sin, or your theory that we can just sin and put it on Christ’s tab?

Although these days, a small stipend is generally given to have masses said in order to help those in purgarory, during the middle ages entire fortunes were handed over to church officials in order hopes of even the possibility of freeing loved ones from the flames of purgatory.

The problem was that the church cannot tell you how long anyone will be in purgatory or how many masses or donated money will be enough. The financial abuse of the faithful during the middle ages was incredible.

Although the church is still happy to take the money, I do give them a lot of credit for putting a stop to the abuses.

I grow weary of these financial gain arguments. The purpose of the stipend is to help defray the cost of Mass supplies. A priest will offer a Mass for the dead even if the person requesting it cannot offer any stipend.

 

[NeedImprovement]

…

I grow weary of these financial gain arguments. The purpose of the stipend is to help defray the cost of Mass supplies. A priest will offer a Mass for the dead even if the person requesting it cannot offer any stipend.

An excellent point () which could also serve as a reminder what can potentially happen with generalizations.

I sometimes have Mass intentions offered through White Fathers (Missionaries of Africa) who are still serving in Africa in the missions. For some of them, the stipend is their sole means of financial support … very much in keeping with the original objective of stipends .

Certainly abuses exist … but the situation is far from being all bad :

The chaplain I presently work for in a large palliative and long-term care facility belongs to a religious order… and so has taken a vow of poverty. The Mass stipends he receives allows him to send money home to his mother in Africa who needs certain types of medication.

On the other side of the coin, I sometimes hear some of the faithful use rather loose language saying , " Je veux payer des Messes" which, roughly translated is, " I want to pay some Masses " ( … a little too close for comfort to " I want to buy some Masses", - don’t you think ?) .

Alternately, the proper french terminology for this intention is quite beautiful actually : " Je veux faire chanter une Messe" , there is no direct translation of the specific idiom into english, but the words when translated say , " I would like to have a Mass sung".

 

[tmac1956]

I honestly think this is sick in thinking. Is God to small to purify us at the moment we die? snip…

Actually, that’s a very good question and one that I had to contend with during my conversion from the Baptist Protestant persuasion to Catholicism. Here’s how I finally answered it (well sort of) to my own satisfaction.

First, there is no such thing as time after we die. So, if God purifies us at the “… moment we die”, who can say that it won’t take ten thousand earth years to accomplish. By this line of reasoning disagreement over Purgatory evaporated. Since heaven is in the “eternal now” and we, in our corporeal selves cannot imagine the absence of time, Purgatory could no longer be a point of contention for me. It’s just a process – call it what you want.

That’s just my two cents.

 

[r4j]

Actually, that’s a very good question and one that I had to contend with during my conversion from the Baptist Protestant persuasion to Catholicism. Here’s how I finally answered it (well sort of) to my own satisfaction.

First, there is no such thing as time after we die. So, if God purifies us at the “… moment we die”, who can say that it won’t take ten thousand earth years to accomplish. By this line of reasoning disagreement over Purgatory evaporated. Since heaven is in the “eternal now” and we, in our corporeal selves cannot imagine the absence of time, Purgatory could no longer be a point of contention for me. It’s just a process – call it what you want.

That’s just my two cents.

If I may extend your thoughts here tmac because I think this is a good thing to keep in mind. God’s ways are so far above our ways.
Tristan - I agree with an earlier poster - you might want to get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, read that and then seek some spiritual guidance from an authentic Catholic. These forums seem to be spinning you in all different directions unless you’re just having fun with all this.
TLM08 - I’ve seen you posting on other threads and I had the impression you were an ardent traditional catholic - but I am surprised at some of your postings here. You seem to be on the offensive against the Church.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I’m no theologian, but here’s my take (taken from St. Therese of Lisieux, that is)

First, when we die, all of our sins become simultaneously “present” to us in their full horror. Here on earth, we very frequently hide from ourselves the full effect of our sins and the personal corruption underlying them.

Second, we are simultaneously offered forgiveness. It is not easy to take, since we are also being “told” the full and horrific nature of what we did and the corruption of soul that caused us to do those things.

Some people react with hatred toward God, knowing full well that it means hell to do it, and what hell means, very precisely. But, seeing with total clarity for the first time, they will themselves to remain as worshippers of themselves for all eternity, knowing their lacks but willing it anyway, just as Satan did.

Some have atoned fully and/or have purged themselves from the corruption. Those enter right into heaven.

Some recognize the nature of their acts and of themselves and yet will to have sufficient humility not to allow themselves entry into the presence of God. Those people “volunteer” for self-purgation; fully repenting and painfully rooting out of themselves those aspects of themselves that gave rise to the sins.

It’s hard to picture all of that, but I can see it somewhat. It is extraordinarily painful to suddenly realize that something I thought was right was not only wrong, but that the blindness I had in not seeing that it was wrong is due to some wilful refusal of mine to see the truth. I was blind to the full horror of my sins because I wanted to commit them and blinded myself to them. It is also painful to root whatever that was out of my being. Such an thing might, in its own way, be more painful than fire.

Because Protestants (many of them anyway) believe, and want to believe, that Jesus’ salvific acts utterly wiped out all trace, effect and residue of sin, necessarily deny purgatory because they feel there cannot be anything left to “purge”. There will be no act of the will to undertake a conversion not previously undertaken.

Catholics do not equate Christ’s sacrifice and consequent forgiveness of sin with total conversion of the soul. Therese felt we would not admit ourselves into God’s presence in the absence of total conversion. We would either refuse to do it with total clarity as to what it means and cast ourselves into hell, or we would volunteer to undertake it and place ourselves in the state of being we call “purgatory” until we did. In purgatory, we know we are “saved” because we know what we chose. And, since the decision was with total clarity, uniting intellect and will and total knowledge, it’s irrevocable.

The process of purgatory is “temporal”, which is to say, “in time” not “eternal”. It’s temporary. Our decision to join with God or to reject Him is, however, eternal and thus irrevocable.

 

[TristanCross]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=362088

 

[DLClark]

Most certainly. What kind of a deterrent would Purgatory be if it was a Club Med on the way to Paradise?!

“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” (Matthew:5 25-26 NIV)

“Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism.” (Colossians 3:25)

“That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.” (Luke 12:47-48)

“Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.” (1 Peter 4:8)

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

Christ has already cleansed the beleiver from sins desease by His death on the Cross. Man appropriates this finished work for himself if by faith he will accept what Christ has done for him. 1 Peter 2:24
and He Himselfbore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
NASU

 

[Victorious]

Christ has already cleansed the beleiver from sins desease by His death on the Cross. Man appropriates this finished work for himself if by faith he will accept what Christ has done for him. 1 Peter 2:24
and He Himselfbore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
NASU

Once again, the question arises: how do you figure we can sin all we want, and Jesus will pick up the tab? And if this theory is true, why should anybody go to the trouble of avoiding sin?

 

[simple_soul]

There is nothing despairing about Purgatory. Purgatory is temporary. It is also salutary. Question: what is more likely to deter people from sinning in the first place: the fact of incurring temporal punishment for sin, or your theory that we can just sin and put it on Christ’s tab?

I, personally, and sincerely stive to not give in to my sinful nature out of my love for my God and Savoir and out of my fear of loosing that unity that I have found in knowing Him.
I also think that your choices you have given are why the most Holy Church of God has had a few souls go astray over the years. One question I would have for you is why did God create us with a free will?

 

[Victorious]

Victorious;5506311:

There is nothing despairing about Purgatory. Purgatory is temporary. It is also salutary. Question: what is more likely to deter people from sinning in the first place: the fact of incurring temporal punishment for sin, or your theory that we can just sin and put it on Christ’s tab?

I, personally, and sincerely stive to not give in to my sinful nature out of my love for my God and Savoir and out of my fear of loosing that unity that I have found in knowing Him.
I also think that your choices you have given are why the most Holy Church of God has had a few souls go astray over the years. One question I would have for you is why did God create us with a free will?

Maybe I’m just dense, but I don’t understand the question in this context. My point (addressed to someone who does not believe in Purgatory) was that the doctrine of Purgatory does more to deter people from sinning than the idea that we need not worry about the temporal punishment due to sin.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Once again, the question arises: how do you figure we can sin all we want, and Jesus will pick up the tab? And if this theory is true, why should anybody go to the trouble of avoiding sin?

Some protestants believe this, and some don’t. Some believe that “accepting Jesus Christ as my personal Savior” is a get-out-of-hell pass. Some believe you can lose being “saved”, some believe “OSAS” (once saved, always saved). Some believe in confessing sins. Some don’t. Some believe in “salvation by faith alone”. Some dont’.

Purgatory is rejected by virtually all Protestants, and I think it stems from Luther’s “salvation by faith alone” conclusion, as well as the reaction against indulgences. If you’re “saved by faith alone”, you would not need any kind of additional thing to send you right to heaven.

 

[DLClark]

Wow you are just copying and pasting the old, tired Protestant lines, aren’t you?

At any rate, you’re wrong. This can be found on Catholic.com:

catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9109fea1.asp

Truth is truth. The idea of pergatory condemns all that Christ did for us on the Cross. If salvation ins’t finishedthen Christ made an untrue statement. But we all know that our salvation is bought and paid for so why do we have pay for something that is already paid for?

 

[Ridgerunner]

Truth is truth. The idea of pergatory condemns all that Christ did for us on the Cross. If salvation ins’t finishedthen Christ made an untrue statement. But we all know that our salvation is bought and paid for so why do we have pay for something that is already paid for?

So, no matter what you do, you’re saved. You owe nothing to God. I’m not persuaded that Jesus said anything like those things. Perhaps you can quote His words saying “Your salvation is finished and you’re saved, no matter what you do or don’t do.”

Why, I might ask, do not all Protestants believe as you do? What’s your church?

 

[Victorious]

Truth is truth. The idea of pergatory condemns all that Christ did for us on the Cross. If salvation ins’t finishedthen Christ made an untrue statement. But we all know that our salvation is bought and paid for so why do we have pay for something that is already paid for?

Then what are you going to do about Colossians 1:24-26:

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, of which I became a minister according to the divine office which was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now made manifest to his saints.

 

[Victorious]

P.S. If Calvary makes human suffering unnecessary, why did Jesus tell His followers to take up their crosses and follow Him?

 

[GodIsGracious]

P.S. If Calvary makes human suffering unnecessary, why did Jesus tell His followers to take up their crosses and follow Him?

 

[Luke65]

Christ has already cleansed the beleiver from sins desease by His death on the Cross. Man appropriates this finished work for himself if by faith he will accept what Christ has done for him. 1 Peter 2:24
and He Himselfbore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
NASU

Why did you just ignore all the scriptures that I quoted in your response to my post? You can’t pick and choose which scriptures you will believe and which ones you won’t. You have to harmonize all the Scriptures together if you are to come to a knowledge of the truth; and that’s what the Catholic Church has been doing for almost 2000 years. Did you know that even the angels are learning about the wisdom of God from the pillar and foundation of the truth - the Church? (Ephesians 3:10) Maybe, just maybe even you can learn something from the Church!

Truth is truth. The idea of pergatory condemns all that Christ did for us on the Cross. If salvation ins’t finishedthen Christ made an untrue statement. But we all know that our salvation is bought and paid for so why do we have pay for something that is already paid for?

Because Christ paid our eternal debt for our sins so that we could be forgiven. He did not die for us so that we would never have to suffer, which is manifest, or so that we could sin with impunity and say Christ has it covered! Which should also be manifest. God explicitly told you that you will pay a price for your sins, so why do you make God contradict Himself? There is no contradiction. I showed you, briefly, how to harmonize these scriptures, and so have others, but I would love to hear how you harmonize them. God bless.

P.S. You might want to take a quick gander at this thread.