What! (Purgatory)

[r4j]

Is it just me or is this like invasion of the non-catholics week? Funny thing is, this the traditional catholicism forum but I feel like were the apologetics. Seems like every where we turn, there’s another defense going on. Maybe they’re just having fun with us. But the thing is, there are an apologetics and non-catholic forums.
I just wanted to say that Christ won the victory for us - we have to accept that victory. How do we accept the victory - in His words, ‘if you love me, you will keep my commandments…’. As us Catholics like to say - commandments, not suggestions.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Is it just me or is this like invasion of the non-catholics week? Funny thing is, this the traditional catholicism forum but I feel like were the apologetics. Seems like every where we turn, there’s another defense going on. Maybe they’re just having fun with us. But the thing is, there are an apologetics and non-catholic forums.
I just wanted to say that Christ won the victory for us - we have to accept that victory. How do we accept the victory - in His words, ‘if you love me, you will keep my commandments…’. As us Catholics like to say - commandments, not suggestions.

Some evangelical groups occasionally get all charged up and go on campaigns to “Convert the Catholics”. Could be one of those.

 

[Des]

and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

If what you say here is true, are you currently living in righteousness at this moment till your death?

Is a Christian who had greedy thoughts before he died without repenting going to Heaven the same as a man who calls himself a Christian rapes someone before he dies?

If not, why not. If so then Christianity itself is absurd and laughable.

 

[GodIsGracious]

Some evangelical groups occasionally get all charged up and go on campaigns to “Convert the Catholics”. Could be one of those.

I’ve noticed also that for a while there a couple of months ago there were several people who had just gone to their preacher school posting. Then they went away. Some of them posted that they “know” this because they went to “seminary” school. All protestant. I kind of wonder if this site is their “project” every semester for apologetics. Sort of like an internship or something.

 

[DLClark]

Notice what Paul says here. He is condeming purgatory.
Col 2:8-23

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day — 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" 22(which all refer to things destined to perish with use) — in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.
NASU

Man made regulations refering to the “severe treatment of the body” mortification or abstaining for meat on Friday “do not taste” are “self-made religion … and are of no value.” Purgatory is condemned by God here in these verses. Christ paid for our sins so why do we have to. It is a slap in the face of God who has removed the penalty of from us on the Cross. Believe the Bible not man made regulations.

 

[GodIsGracious]

DLClark, this is the Traditional Catholicism forum. Please refrain from posting your protestant views.

 

[diggerdomer]

Notice what Paul says here. He is condeming purgatory.
Col 2:8-23

I don’t think he’s condemning purgatory. I don’t think there was any understanding of the idea of purgatory at the time, so how could he have possibly been condemning it?

Anyway, God inspired people to make the Bible faithful to divine revelation just as God continues to inspire people and churches to make other rules faithful to divine revelation.

 

[LilyM]

I honestly think this is sick in thinking. Is God to small to purify us at the moment we die?

Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins (Romans 5:8). Isaiah 53:5 declares, “But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed.” Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus’ suffering was insufficient. To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus (1 John 2:2).

I just found a verse that kinda destorys Catholicism (IMO):

Hebrews 7:27
Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

But we continually suffer in this life, no? The good as well as the evil? Why is that if Christ’s death did away with all necessity for suffering? By your logic we shouldn’t suffer in this life either - if all purification should be done in an instant upon our death. As we can see, that simply isn’t God’s plan, not for this life nor the next.

On the contrary - not only do we suffer but we suffer with purpose. Paul said that his suffering COMPLETES what is lacking in Christ’s own sufferings. I’m sure our sufferings in Purgatory do so as well as those on earth.

God continually purifies us through suffering during this life - as St Paul also says, ‘God chastises those whom He loves’.

As for your last quote - the Catholic priest doesn’t offer sacrifices day after day as the Jewish priests did. They, you must remember, killed fresh (new and different) sacrificial animals every day.

Instead, the Catholic priest daily renews the one and only offering, the one and only sacrifice, the same sacrifice of Christ that He Himself offered on Calvary. It’s not different sacrifices every day such as the Jewish priests offered - it’s always the same one!

 

[Ridgerunner]

I’ve noticed also that for a while there a couple of months ago there were several people who had just gone to their preacher school posting. Then they went away. Some of them posted that they “know” this because they went to “seminary” school. All protestant. I kind of wonder if this site is their “project” every semester for apologetics. Sort of like an internship or something.

That would be my guess; sort of like the DNC types who come in here in groups to praise Obama and call Republicans names, then largely disappear.

 

[GodIsGracious]

That would be my guess; sort of like the DNC types who come in here in groups to praise Obama and call Republicans names, then largely disappear.

LOL. Oh, the irony of your post

At anyrate, I really do wish the protestants would stay off of the Traditional Catholicism forums unless they’re there to ask questions and LEARN.

 

[r4j]

LOL. Oh, the irony of your post

At anyrate, I really do wish the protestants would stay off of the Traditional Catholicism forums unless they’re there to ask questions and LEARN.

That’s what I was I thinking. I don’t mind if you sincerely want to come and explore our faith and learn and engage in some productive, constructive discussion. But, like this guy Tristan, that started all these posts - he goes away saying ‘ok now that I know the Catholic faith, I’ll stay Lutheran.’ And I’m thinking, please don’t go away thinking you learned the Catholic faith from seeing all us Catholics tripping overselves trying to explain things and then go tell other people what you heard - like about this post on purgatory. This last thing we need is more misinformation out there.
My view on purgatory is - it is what the Catholic Church teaches us it is - God’s mercy - if you’ve made to purgatory, you’ve done well. Whether it’s real fire, real pain, sand in your peanut butter sandwich - doesn’t really matter - if you’re going to see God - it can be anything God wants. I don’t know why people get so hung up about the details - sorry, venting a little here.

 

[Ridgerunner]

LOL. Oh, the irony of your post

At anyrate, I really do wish the protestants would stay off of the Traditional Catholicism forums unless they’re there to ask questions and LEARN.

Perhaps ironic, but not nearly as ironic as those Catholics who come here to persuade Catholics that they should politically support abortion and/or its promoters. Some of them are obviously DNC people.

I quite agree that if Protestants have an interest in learning, they ought to feel free to come here to explore the Catholic faith and satisfy whatever questions they have, to the extent people can answer them.

But it’s a waste of everyone’s time to just come in here; shoot off some challenge and then disappear.

I have noticed that most of those who do that never want to answer any questions about their own religions, wherefor I am inclined to conclude that the purpose is not truly to explore differences in religious beliefs, but to just take potshots.

I will admit that there have been some exceptions; usually Anglicans. I did once meet in here a United Methodist who really did seem to be interested in exploring differences and similarities concerning the Catholic vs Methodist conceptions of the Eucharist and the meaning of “The Church”. It was his position that his religion and Catholicism were actually one church. But he did seem to be a pretty “high church” Methodist. Some Anglicans evidently think the same thing.

 

[NeedImprovement]

…, sand in your peanut butter sandwich - doesn’t really matter…sorry, venting a little here.

( LOL ) Venting with one’s sense of humour still intact =

We could all use a little more of that.

(*BTW The secret to enjoying the peanut butter sandwich w/sand in it is to not close your teeth all the way when you chew).

 

[GodIsGracious]

(*BTW The secret to enjoying the peanut butter sandwich w/sand in it is to not close your teeth all the way when you chew).

Pointers to take with you should you find yourself in purgatory!

 

[GodIsGracious]

Perhaps ironic, but not nearly as ironic as those Catholics who come here to persuade Catholics that they should politically support abortion and/or its promoters. Some of them are obviously DNC people.

I say ironic because I am democrat and vote democrat.

But to the rest of your post: I have learned a lot about protestants on these forums in what I consider a “safe” environment. If that makes sense.

Perhaps, we can offer up the protestants who come here and challenge us as time for purgatory? (trying to keep on topic!)

 

[Timbothefiveth]

If you’re going to be a democrat, at least only vote for and support pro-life democrats

 

[Timbothefiveth]

Hebrews 7:27
Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

I don’t get how that destroyes catholicism. I believe it’s referring to the sacrifice of, for instance, lambs, of the Hebrews.

Matthew 16:18 reaffirms the catholic church

I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I say ironic because I am democrat and vote democrat.

I’m a Democrat by birth and, to some degree, by tendency as it pertains to the REAL poor, as opposed to middle class Americans who simply have desires. Used to be a party official. But I haven’t been active or voted Democrat for years because there are never any Democrats on my ballot who don’t support abortion on demand. So I’m stuck. Might be there are some prolife Democrats somewhere (I think there’s one in the middle of this state, a U.S. Representative). But not here.

If, indeed, those in purgatory volunteer for it as a way of presenting themselves better to God, I don’t see why that’s so objectionable. Nobody really knows what it is to be in the presence of God after death, and nobody knows for sure what it’s like. Disbelief in purgatory requires being fully worthy, and perceiving oneself as fully worthy, to be perfectly in God’s presence. It assumes no regrets; no lingering sense of guilt, no desire to perfect oneself or to come to a better understanding of sin and holiness. It asks a lot more, I think, than does belief in purgatory, particularly if it also assumes something like “once saved always saved”. It kind of seems to me like the assumption of those at the wedding feast that they did not have to prepare themselves.

 

[Victorious]

Notice what Paul says here. He is condeming purgatory.
Col 2:8-23

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day — 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" 22(which all refer to things destined to perish with use) — in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.
NASU

Man made regulations refering to the “severe treatment of the body” mortification or abstaining for meat on Friday “do not taste” are “self-made religion … and are of no value.” Purgatory is condemned by God here in these verses. Christ paid for our sins so why do we have to. It is a slap in the face of God who has removed the penalty of from us on the Cross. Believe the Bible not man made regulations.

Interesting how Protestants claim (a) Purgatory can’t exist because there is no mention of Purgatory in the Bible, and (b) the Bible condemns Purgatory. Which is it?

And once again, we are told: eat, drink, be merry, sin all you want, and Jesus will pick up the tab. How do you figure this is legit?

 

[stuart12]

‘‘Matthew 16:18 reaffirms the catholic church’’

‘The gates of hell will not prevail against (the Church)’

Protestant brothers, was our Lord lying or was He just mistaken? The gates of hell obviously have prevailed over the Church if we papists teach that Christ’s sacrifice is not sufficient. Or was our Lord being sincere but the Holy Spirit fell asleep and couldnt keep to Christ’s promise?

Much has been mentioned on here about accepting the Scriptures and not the ‘opinions of fallible men’, but the truth is that the Church could survive very well without the Bible. She cetainly did so for many years.

Luther the heretic, rebelled against papal power through his own insecurities, and he had to then reject Sacred Tradition as it supported the Holy Father’s authority, therefore he had only the Scriptures to fall back on. The three legged stool was reduced to one leg…and it fell over.