What really happened during Vatican II?

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dizzy_dave

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I’m confused. Tan books has books titled:
  • Liturgical Time Bombs of Vatican II
  • In The Murky Waters of Vatican II
  • Liturgical Shipwreck
What really happened at Vatican II? Here is a quote from the first book I listed:
“…Fr. Annibale Bugnini - before being dismissed by Pope Paul VI under suspicion of being a Freemason - was able to “reform” the Catholic Mass into a constantly evolving liturgy from which the Church gas been suffering since 1969.”
  • So who is (was) Fr. Annibale Bugnini?, is this true? How big of a hand did he have in all this?
  • What is the true story of Vatican II?, I often hear Fr. John Corapi say “Vatican II was a gift from God, however it and it’s documents are often misquoted.”
  • Is there a book that is out there that stands up to this kind of attack on Vatican II?, if so what is the title, and where can I get it? Thank you and God bless. :confused:
 
Vatican II, love it or hate it, you have to agree it was probably the most significant event in Institutional Church history, far surpassing Trent or any other council. Note I said the institutional Church.

There are a number of books floating around that attack Vatican II and the “fruits” thereof. Most seem to center around the theory that the whole concept of Vatican II was to de catholicize the Catholic faith, protestantize it, modernize it, or make it more ecumenically appealing and less forbidding.to the separated brethren.

Much has been said about Archbishop Bugnini, who was suspected of being a freemason, a charge he repeatedly denied to anyone that would listen and who from 1948 until 1975 was deeply involved at different levels, agencies and commissions within the Vatican in the formation of new liturgies and the Novus Ordo mass. In 1964 he was appointed Secretary of the Consilium, to oversee the implementation of the reforms reccomended by the council and in 1969 was appointed secretary of the Congregation of Divine Worship, which was set up to oversee the Liturgy. In 1975 he was in essence fired from that post when the Congregation of Divine Worship was suppressed by Pope Paul VI for unknown reasons. It is interesting that the Congregation lasted only six years, before suppression, It was the equivalent of warp speed for a decison to be made on anything at the Vatican. The Archbishop was then appointed Papal Nuncio to Tehran, Iran, which to many observers seemed to be an exile of sorts… While probably not a freemason, documents are inconclusive, there is little doubt that the Holy Father at the very least, suspected Bugnini was. In fact in letters to the Holy Father Bugnini denied those very allegations. . Archbishop Bugnini was considered, by even his most rabid supporters, to be a staunch secular humanist and those beliefs and ideals deeply influenced the Novus Ordo Mass and Liturgies. .

A lot is made of the fact that five or six Protestant Ministers were present also. There were actually, 16 or 17 observers from both the Orthodox Churches and various Protestant sects. In addition there were theologans of different types and faiths as well. Some say they were merely advisory, some say they were actually involved in the drafting of the documents. It is known that they had (name removed by moderator)ut in discussions, roundtables as it were, and engaged in dialogue throughout.They all received copies of all documents floating about, and took part in all of the meetings. As to what influence and or impact they had, who really knows? It all depends which position you choose to believe. Documents abound supporting both sides of the argument.

While no doubt true Vatican II was a valid council, some of its reccomendations did indeed harm the faith. Not in what they said or what they anticipated, but rather in the way they were implemented. There is no denying that the Church in the past forty years has suffered tremendously directly as a result of the implementation of some of the reccomendations.

If there is a good book supporting Vatican II, I have yet to find it. Most of the ones that I have seen, fall under the same category as the ones that attack Vatican II, that is entirely one sided and slanted to support the authors views.

I wish there was a book that presented the facts, only the facts of the state of the Church at the time of the Council, the council itself, and the state of the Church after the reforms, with emphasis on how the reforms were implemented and what impact they had, if any on the faith today…

If anyone knows of sucsh a book, please let me know. 🙂

I think such a book is long long overdue, and could dispel some of the ideas and theories floating around out there.
 
One of the reasons I generally avoid Tan Books; they have some good titles, and a lot I would not dignify by using for a door stop.
 
the books you cite are neither historically accurate nor respectful of the magesterial teaching authority of the Church. For every good book Tan publishes (usually reprints of spiritual classics) they print ten hunks of pure bilge. Not worth the paper it is printed on. Evidently their editorial board is unwilling or unable to distinguish between books with merit and books that are dangerous, so best to have nothing to do with them.
 
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palmas85:
Vatican II, love it or hate it, you have to agree it was probably the most significant event in Institutional Church history, far surpassing Trent or any other council. Note I said the institutional Church.

There are a number of books floating around that attack Vatican II and the “fruits” thereof. Most seem to center around the theory that the whole concept of Vatican II was to de catholicize the Catholic faith, protestantize it, modernize it, or make it more ecumenically appealing and less forbidding.to the separated brethren.

Much has been said about Archbishop Bugnini, who was suspected of being a freemason, a charge he repeatedly denied to anyone that would listen and who from 1948 until 1975 was deeply involved at different levels, agencies and commissions within the Vatican in the formation of new liturgies and the Novus Ordo mass. In 1964 he was appointed Secretary of the Consilium, to oversee the implementation of the reforms reccomended by the council and in 1969 was appointed secretary of the Congregation of Divine Worship, which was set up to oversee the Liturgy. In 1975 he was in essence fired from that post when the Congregation of Divine Worship was suppressed by Pope Paul VI for unknown reasons. It is interesting that the Congregation lasted only six years, before suppression, It was the equivalent of warp speed for a decison to be made on anything at the Vatican. The Archbishop was then appointed Papal Nuncio to Tehran, Iran, which to many observers seemed to be an exile of sorts… While probably not a freemason, documents are inconclusive, there is little doubt that the Holy Father at the very least, suspected Bugnini was. In fact in letters to the Holy Father Bugnini denied those very allegations. . Archbishop Bugnini was considered, by even his most rabid supporters, to be a staunch secular humanist and those beliefs and ideals deeply influenced the Novus Ordo Mass and Liturgies. .

A lot is made of the fact that five or six Protestant Ministers were present also. There were actually, 16 or 17 observers from both the Orthodox Churches and various Protestant sects. In addition there were theologans of different types and faiths as well. Some say they were merely advisory, some say they were actually involved in the drafting of the documents. It is known that they had (name removed by moderator)ut in discussions, roundtables as it were, and engaged in dialogue throughout.They all received copies of all documents floating about, and took part in all of the meetings. As to what influence and or impact they had, who really knows? It all depends which position you choose to believe. Documents abound supporting both sides of the argument.

While no doubt true Vatican II was a valid council, some of its reccomendations did indeed harm the faith. Not in what they said or what they anticipated, but rather in the way they were implemented. There is no denying that the Church in the past forty years has suffered tremendously directly as a result of the implementation of some of the reccomendations.

If there is a good book supporting Vatican II, I have yet to find it. Most of the ones that I have seen, fall under the same category as the ones that attack Vatican II, that is entirely one sided and slanted to support the authors views.

I wish there was a book that presented the facts, only the facts of the state of the Church at the time of the Council, the council itself, and the state of the Church after the reforms, with emphasis on how the reforms were implemented and what impact they had, if any on the faith today…

If anyone knows of sucsh a book, please let me know. 🙂

I think such a book is long long overdue, and could dispel some of the ideas and theories floating around out there.
This is more quantitative; I’m not sure if that is what you meant. It may answer some of your questions though.

amazon.com/gp/product/0972868801/qid=1134338818/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-5538471-1899143?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
 
I had a priest tell me to avoid the books on Hell and Pugatory.

So does anyone know a good Vatican II book that is true?
 
Trojan Horse in the City of God: How Godlessness Crept into the Sanctuary-And How to Thrust It Out Again and The Devastated Vineyard, by Dietrich von Hildebrand.

von Hildebrand, who is pro-Vatican II, but anti “Spirit of Vatican II.” explains the crisis of the Church after the V II.
 
McInerny’s book on VatII is quite good.

IMHO those who deny the findings in “What Went Wrong…” or “Time Bombs…” etc fail to present any support for their view.

B16 comes to office after we have been wandering in the desert of ambiguity for 40 years. How timely.
 
Eileen T:
Trojan Horse in the City of God: How Godlessness Crept into the Sanctuary-And How to Thrust It Out Again and The Devastated Vineyard, by Dietrich von Hildebrand.

von Hildebrand, who is pro-Vatican II, but anti “Spirit of Vatican II.” explains the crisis of the Church after the V II.
What is the spirit of Vatican II, opposed to pro Vatican II ?
 
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dizzy_dave:
What is the spirit of Vatican II, opposed to pro Vatican II ?
Since perception is reality, the “Spirit” of Vatican II is Vatican II as far as I’m concerned.

Oh, sure. We’ve heard a lot of noise from some quarters for years about how we need to “implement Vatican II correctly.” Funny, but I haven’t seen any real move in that direction. Just a bunch of vague generalities and promises.

Like it or not, the perception is that Vatican II threw open the windows of a dark, backward, medieval Church. (A Church with a ridiculous number of vocations and well catechised faithful who were proud to be culturally different. But dark and backward nonetheless.) The perception is that Vatican II did away with things like mortal sin, the rosary, Eucharistic Adoration, Latin in the Mass…and so forth.

Now, who’s going to accept someone who tries to tell them that Vatican II just confirmed 2,000 years of Catholic Tradition and changed nothing of the essentials? Nobody, that’s who.

Perception is reality. Until that perception is changed, the reality will remain. And vague generalities will change nothing.
 
Pro Vatican II means that you support the Council and its teachings outlined therein…however, the “Spirit of Vatican II” is used as an excuse to implement a bunch of heterodoxical nonsense…
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dizzy_dave:
What is the spirit of Vatican II, opposed to pro Vatican II ?
 
Not to get too off-topic,
but the poster above has her facts confused about TAN’s ratio of bad books to good books published (she said 10 to 1 bad books vs. good books).
I would say from my experience that 95% of what TAN publishes is superb Catholic teaching. Though they do publish anti-Vatican II books, they are comparatively few compared to the wonderful and hard to get Catholic books they publish.
God bless,
Jaypeeto4 (aka Jaypeeto3)
 
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Jaypeeto4:
Not to get too off-topic,
but the poster above has her facts confused about TAN’s ratio of bad books to good books published (she said 10 to 1 bad books vs. good books).
I would say from my experience that 95% of what TAN publishes is superb Catholic teaching.
I completely agree. This has been my experience with TAN.
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Jaypeeto4:
Though they do publish anti-Vatican II books, they are comparatively few compared to the wonderful and hard to get Catholic books they publish.
Also, just because a book is critical of Vatican II doesn’t necesarily mean the book is bad. It is quite possible to be critical of the Council while not denying it’s validity.

God bless,

James
 
Amen brother…I completely agree. The attitude I find mostly is that if you are the least bit critical of VII…even though you never deny its validity, you are automatically lumped into the group of Rad Trads.
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James0235:
Also, just because a book is critical of Vatican II doesn’t necesarily mean the book is bad. It is quite possible to be critical of the Council while not denying it’s validity.

God bless,

James
 
Many good, orthodox priests and laity read Tan publications, and they are mostly great, as noted above. Also, the poster who said there are valid points made in the “TIme Bombs” and other books of that ilk is quite correct…Basically, the time bombs referred to therein are ambiguities introduced at the time of Vatican II which have permitted the mess we are in. Granted, many of them may not have been intended by the Council Fathers, but the language and the documents allowed those with bad ideas and bad practices to run away with it…For example, we now hear people are so used to the bad translations, priest facing the people, etc, that it would be difficult to fix without introducing havoc. Please do evaluate the conclusions presented in this and other books, but only after reading them and comparing them to what was intended by the authors of Vatican II.
 
It is funny after almost every council the church has had, there have been rebellion. I notice the hardcore way over board extreme Traditionalists “claim” obedience but their actions say just the opposite, I know because 2 years ago when I was coming back into the church I was “almost” swept away by the SSPX, until I started researching them and found out they are the DISobedient ones, sometimes I think it all boils down to being a bull head. Everyone blames Vatican II for this and that, I am a firm believer it was and is the culture (of death), this downhill slide would have happened regardless of Vatican II. Look at what happened after Vatican I, ever heard of the “Old Catholics”, that is the Schismatic group from that council, do the research after nearly every council there has been a schism. The 16 documents of Vatican II were and are a blessing from God, the implimentation has been the problem. The culture of death started in the 1960’s just while Vatican II was going on, like I said it is the culture that failed, not the Council. I used to think that the council was bad too, until I started to reseach it and my parish priest worked with me too to explain it. The anti-Vatican II people who complain about the New Mass, the Tridentine Mass that was started after the council of Trent was ALSO a contantly changing Mass, also always evolving, take the St. Michael prayer at the end of the Mass, that was added on in the late 1800’s by Pope Leo XIII, alot of this stuff can be easily found. Print the Vatican II documents and see what they really say, if you can misquote the Bible you can misquote a church document. 🙂
 
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dizzy_dave:
It is funny after almost every council the church has had, there have been rebellion. I notice the hardcore way over board extreme Traditionalists “claim” obedience but their actions say just the opposite, I know because 2 years ago when I was coming back into the church I was “almost” swept away by the SSPX, until I started researching them and found out they are the DISobedient ones, sometimes I think it all boils down to being a bull head. Everyone blames Vatican II for this and that, I am a firm believer it was and is the culture (of death), this downhill slide would have happened regardless of Vatican II. Look at what happened after Vatican I, ever heard of the “Old Catholics”, that is the Schismatic group from that council, do the research after nearly every council there has been a schism. The 16 documents of Vatican II were and are a blessing from God, the implimentation has been the problem. The culture of death started in the 1960’s just while Vatican II was going on, like I said it is the culture that failed, not the Council. I used to think that the council was bad too, until I started to reseach it and my parish priest worked with me too to explain it. The anti-Vatican II people who complain about the New Mass, the Tridentine Mass that was started after the council of Trent was ALSO a contantly changing Mass, also always evolving, take the St. Michael prayer at the end of the Mass, that was added on in the late 1800’s by Pope Leo XIII, alot of this stuff can be easily found. Print the Vatican II documents and see what they really say, if you can misquote the Bible you can misquote a church document. 🙂
Please provide specific examples of how the old Roman Rite (commonly, and misleadingly, referred to as the “Tridentine Mass”) was “constantly changing” and “always evolving.” I’d be satisfied with a side by side comparison of, say, an altar missal from the 16th Century and one from the 1950’s. This should give a concrete example of the alleged “evolutionary” process.

The Prayer to St. Michael is not considered part of the Mass proper and has no bearing one way or the other on it’s validity or licitness.
 
Dr. Bombay:
Please provide specific examples of how the old Roman Rite (commonly, and misleadingly, referred to as the “Tridentine Mass”) was “constantly changing” and “always evolving.” I’d be satisfied with a side by side comparison of, say, an altar missal from the 16th Century and one from the 1950’s. This should give a concrete example of the alleged “evolutionary” process.

The Prayer to St. Michael is not considered part of the Mass proper and has no bearing one way or the other on it’s validity or licitness.
go to christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/valmass.html

also the following book: The Mass: Its Rituals, Roots and Relevance in our Lives by Joan Cater McHugh.

also read the book: More Catholic Than the Pope: An Inside Look at Extreme Traditionalism. By Patrick Madrid and Pete Vere.

You surely can’t deny the fact that the St. Michael prayer was an add on by Pope Leo XIII in the late 1800’s, actually I kind of wish we did that now, but that’s just me. I go to a parish that says the “new Mass” very reverantly. Do a google search for changes in the Catholic Mass through history. The missals changed, you got the 1962, the this the that, etc. That Mass was also never the same from start to finish, you can’t honestly say that.
 
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dizzy_dave:
go to christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/valmass.html

also the following book: The Mass: Its Rituals, Roots and Relevance in our Lives by Joan Cater McHugh.

also read the book: More Catholic Than the Pope: An Inside Look at Extreme Traditionalism. By Patrick Madrid and Pete Vere.

You surely can’t deny the fact that the St. Michael prayer was an add on by Pope Leo XIII in the late 1800’s, actually I kind of wish we did that now, but that’s just me. I go to a parish that says the “new Mass” very reverantly. Do a google search for changes in the Catholic Mass through history. The missals changed, you got the 1962, the this the that, etc. That Mass was also never the same from start to finish, you can’t honestly say that.
That link is a nice piece of propaganda. Neat citations and everything. Very nice. Too bad it directly contradicts Pope Benedict XVI regarding the priest and the proper orientation of liturgical prayer. See The Spirit of the Liturgy.

I’ve read *More Catholic Than the Pope. *Don’t see that it has any relevance to this discussion. I’m not an SSPXer, nor do I subscribe to many of their outlandish positions. Like all branches cut off from the True Vine, they will eventually whither.

Of course the St. Michael Prayer was an add on. But it was not an addition to the Mass. The only significant changes made to the Mass between Trent and 1960 were the additions of feasts for new saints or additional feasts for Our Lord and the Blessed Mother. Yes, I can say that the Mass was the same, at least in regard to the Ordinary and Propers of the Season. In fact, I just did say it.
 
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dumspirospero:
The attitude I find mostly is that if you are the least bit critical of VII…even though you never deny its validity, you are automatically lumped into the group of Rad Trads.
Well, if you are the least bit critical of Trent, even though you never deny its validity, you are automatically lumped into the group of cafeteria Catholics. So it’s not just about Vatican II.
 
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