What Role Does Mary Really Play

[adorer]

As a recent convert to Catholicism, I have a deep love for the Blessed Virgin Mary. I’m hearing a lot of opinions on what a Catholic must believe about our Lady. First of all, what Marian doctrines are binding upon a Catholic? I will start by saying that I whole heartily believe and love each one of these doctrines. However, it is difficult to speak about Mary with my protestant friends because they feel that one only has to believe truths about Jesus to be saved. They always ask why we hold Marian doctrines just as binding as say the doctrine on the Trinity. Does anyone know a good way to explain why the Church holds Mary in such high regard as to make beliefs in doctrines about her necessary to enter Heaven?

 

[mrS4ntA]

May I suggest the insights of St. Louis deMontfort, easily one of the Church’s most devout advocates of Marian devotion?

True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary would do.

“Mary has two sons, the one a God-man, the other, mere man. She is Mother of the first corporally and of the second spiritually” (St. Bonaventure and Origen).

“This is the will of God who willed that we should have all things through Mary. If then, we possess any hope or grace or gift of salvation, let us acknowledge that it comes to us through her” (St. Bernard).

“All the gifts, graces, virtues of the Holy Spirit are distributed by the hands of Mary, to whom she wills, when she wills, as she wills, and in the measure she wills” (St. Bernardine).

“As you were not worthy that anything divine should be given to you, all graces were given to Mary so that you might receive through her all graces you would not otherwise receive” (St. Bernard).

In Christ through Mary,
S4ntA.

 

[Emmaus]

Mary points the way in word and deed as the perfect example of a faithful and obedient disciple.

148 The Virgin Mary most perfectly embodies the obedience of faith. By faith Mary welcomes the tidings and promise brought by the angel Gabriel, believing that “with God nothing will be impossible” and so giving her assent: “Behold I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word.” Elizabeth greeted her: “Blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.” It is for this faith that all generations have called Mary blessed.
The Catechism

“Do Whatever he tells you!” John 2:5

 

[mrS4ntA]

adorer:

…
First of all, what Marian doctrines are binding upon a Catholic?
…

As far as I know,

Mary was conceived without the stain of Original Sin upon her soul. (Immaculate Conception)

Mary was assumed, body and soul, to Heaven.

Mary was crowned Queen of Heaven and Earth.

Mary is the Mother of God (Theotokos)

Mary’s perpetual virginity (i.e. before and after the birth of Jesus).

and there’s a movement to declare as dogmatic: Mary the co-redemptrix and mediatrix of all graces.

In Christ through Mary,
S4ntA.

 

[mrS4ntA]

adorer:

…
However, it is difficult to speak about Mary with my protestant friends because they feel that one only has to believe truths about Jesus to be saved. …
…

Yeah? Well, tell them that isn’t it a “truth about Jesus” that He, as God-Man, came to this world through Mary’s immaculate womb? Isn’t it “truth about Jesus” that He spent more time growing up in Mary’s maternal guidance than doing his ministry works? God the Father is more glorified that Jesus spent more time (30 years!) in humble obedience to His blessed Mother that is He had spent all those time doing more miracle works! [paraphrased from St. Louis deMontfort ]
Isn’t it “truth about Jesus” that He obeyed His mother’s request at the wedding at Cana. although “[His] time has not yet come”?
Isn’t it “truth about Jesus” that He said, “Behold, thy Mother”?

 

[mrS4ntA]

adorer:

…
They always ask why we hold Marian doctrines just as binding as say the doctrine on the Trinity. Does anyone know a good way to explain why the Church holds Mary in such high regard as to make beliefs in doctrines about her necessary to enter Heaven?

Because Marian doctrines are, in essence, Christological.

*“The doctrine of Mary’s Immaculate Conception is a sign of God’s special favor in preserving her from sin from the first moment of conception in her mother’s womb in order to be a spotless vessel by God’s saving grace, highlighting that Jesus, who was undefiled in his divinity, would also be the spotless and undefiled Lamb of God in his humanity. For all things are possible for God. The fact that God’s prevenient, preserving, saving and sanctifying grace in Mary should precede his appearance in the flesh should be no more difficult to accept than the retroactive saving and sanctifying grace applied to the patriarchs and holy men and women of the Old Testament. God and his grace operate in the realm of eternity, beyond the restrictions of time.”

“The doctrine of the Virgin Birth affirms the Divinity of Jesus as the Son of God.”

“The doctrine of Mary the Mother of God, says as much about Jesus as about Mary, and it was brought forth to defend the Christological doctrine that Jesus was one Divine Person, but that He also had taken upon himself a true human nature through his earthly human mother by the Father’s plan and the power of the Holy Spirit.”

“The doctrine of Mary’s Perpetual Virginity is a sign of total dedication to God and her being set apart as a special vessel for her divine Son in service to will of the Father and the indwelling Holy Spirit.”

“The doctrine of the Assumption of Mary is nothing less than an affirmation of God’s promise of the Resurrection to all the faithful in Christ. For those who believe that at the second coming of Christ, the dead shall be raised and the living faithful be caught up into the clouds to be with Jesus, and believe in the assumptions of Enoch and Elijah in scripture, this can hardly be a difficult doctrine to accept.”*

…from here

In Christ through Mary,
S4ntA.

 

[beng]

First of all. Exercise caution with St Louis de Monfort’s book (Glories of Mary). It’s not for everyone. His uplifting words for Mary must be seen in light of Christ.

mrS4ntA:

As far as I know,

Mary was conceived without the stain of Original Sin upon her soul. (Immaculate Conception)

Mary was assumed, body and soul, to Heaven.

Some more from Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma

The Mother of the Redeemer
Mary’s Motherhood of God

• Mary is truly the Mother of God. (De fide.)

The Privileges of the Mother of God

• Mary was conceived without stain of Original sin. (De fide.)
• From her conception Mary was free from all motions of concupiscence. (Sent. communis.)
• In consequence of a Special Privilege of Grace from God, Mary was free from every personal sin during her whole life. (Sent. fidei proxima.) She was immune from all sin mortal and venial.

***Mary was a Virgin before, during and after the Birth of Jesus Christ. ***

• Mary conceived by the Holy Ghost without the co-operation of man. (De fide.)
• Mary bore her Son without any violation of her virginal integrity. (De fide on the ground of the general promulgation of doctrine.)
• Also after the Birth of Jesus Mary remained a Virgin. (De fide.)
• Mary suffered a temporal death. (Sent. communior.)
• Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven. (De fide.)

Mary’s Co-operation in the Work of the Redeemer

• Mary gave the Redeemer, the Source of all graces, to the world, and in this way she is the channel of all graces. (Sent. certa.)
• Since Mary’s Assumption into Heaven no grace is conferred on man without her actual intercessory co-operation. (Sent. pia et probabilis.)
• Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces by her co-operation in the Incarnation. (Mediatio in universali.)
• Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces by her intercession in Heaven. (Mediatio in speciali.)
• Mary, the Mother of God, is entitled to the Cult of Hyperdulia. (Sent certa.)

You will need to understand this

The Theological Grades of Certainty

1. The highest degree of certainty appertains to the immediately revealed truths. The belief due to them is based on the authority of God Revealing (fides divina), and if the Church, through its teaching, vouches for the fact that a truth is contained in Revelation, one’s certainty is then also based on the authority of the Infallible Teaching Authority of the Church (fides catholica). If Truths are defined by a solemn judgment of faith (definition) of the Pope or of a General Council, they are “de fide definita.”
2. Catholic truths or Church doctrines, on which the infallible Teaching Authority of the Church has finally decided, are to be accepted with a faith which is based on the sole authority of the Church (fides ecclesiastica). These truths are as infallibly certain as dogmas proper.
3. A Teaching proximate to Faith (sententia fidei proxima) is a doctrine, which is regarded by theologians generally as a truth of Revelation, but which has not yet been finally promulgated as such by the Church.
4. A Teaching pertaining to the Faith, i.e., theologically certain (sententia ad fidem pertinens, i.e., theologice certa) is a doctrine, on which the Teaching Authority of the Church has not yet finally pronounced, but whose truth is guaranteed by its intrinsic connection with the doctrine of revelation (theological conclusions).
5. Common Teaching (sententia communis) is doctrine, which in itself belongs to the field of the free opinions, but which is accepted by theologians generally.
6. Theological opinions of lesser grades of certainty are called probable, more probable, well-founded (sententia probabilis, probabilior, bene fundata). Those which are regarded as being in agreement with the consciousness of Faith of the Church are called pious opinions (sententia pia). The least degree of certainty is possessed by the tolerated opinion (opimo tolerata), which is only weakly founded, but which is tolerated by the Church.

Mary was crowned Queen of Heaven and Earth.

It’s never a Dogma. But I would say that this is a logical conclusion. As Gerry Matatics said on his debate with Greg Bahnsen, “Jesus is king, Marry is His mother. End of argument”

and there’s a movement to declare as dogmatic: Mary the co-redemptrix and mediatrix of all graces.

In Christ through Mary,
S4ntA.

For now those two are still Sent. Certa and Sent. pia probabilis

 

[Emmaus]

adorer:

First of all, what Marian doctrines are binding upon a Catholic?

Does anyone know a good way to explain why the Church holds Mary in such high regard as to make beliefs in doctrines about her necessary to enter Heaven?

    **Marian Doctrines Are in Essence Christological Doctrines**

There are four Marian Doctrines binding upon Catholics.

Contrary to the contention that Marian doctrines detract attention and honor from Jesus, they are in fact intrinsically linked to Christological doctrines, and in fact support and buttress the Christological doctrines.

The doctrine of Mary’s Immaculate Conception is a sign of God’s special favor in preserving her from sin from the first moment of conception in her mother’s womb in order to be a spotless vessel by God’s saving grace, highlighting that Jesus, who was undefiled in his divinity, would also be the spotless and undefiled Lamb of God in his humanity. For all things are possible for God. The fact that God’s prevenient, preserving, saving and sanctifying grace in Mary should precede his appearance in the flesh should be no more difficult to accept than the retroactive saving and sanctifying grace applied to the patriarchs and holy men and women of the Old Testament. God and his grace operate in the realm of eternity, beyond the restrictions of time.

The doctrine of Mary’s Perpetual Virginity is a sign of total dedication to God and her being set apart as a special vessel for her divine Son in service to will of the Father and the indwelling Holy Spirit.This doctrine of affirms the virgin birth and thus the Divinity of Jesus as the Son of God in the strongest possible way.

The doctrine of Mary the Mother of God, says as much about Jesus as about Mary, and it was brought forth to defend the Christological doctrine that Jesus was one Divine Person, but that He also had taken upon himself a true human nature through his earthly human mother by the Father’s plan and the power of the Holy Spirit.

The doctrine of the **Assumption of Mary ** is nothing less than an affirmation of God’s promise of the Resurrection to all the faithful in Christ. For those who believe that at the second coming of Christ, the dead shall be raised and the living faithful be caught up into the clouds to be with Jesus, and believe in the assumptions of Enoch and Elijah in scripture, this can hardly be a difficult doctrine to accept.

 

[tcaseyrochester]

mrS4ntA:

As far as I know,

Mary was conceived without the stain of Original Sin upon her soul. (Immaculate Conception)

Mary was assumed, body and soul, to Heaven.

Mary was crowned Queen of Heaven and Earth.

Mary is the Mother of God (Theotokos)

Mary’s perpetual virginity (i.e. before and after the birth of Jesus).

and there’s a movement to declare as dogmatic: Mary the co-redemptrix and mediatrix of all graces.

In Christ through Mary,
S4ntA.

First of all, this is a question, not a challenge (PEACE!!! ).

Isn’t the Immaculate Conception and the Virginity of Mary “Dogma?”

 

[mrS4ntA]

tcaseyrochester:

First of all, this is a question, not a challenge (PEACE!!! ).

Isn’t the Immaculate Conception and the Virginity of Mary “Dogma?”

Your point?

 

[Thepeug]

mrS4ntA:

There’s a movement to declare as dogmatic: Mary the co-redemptrix and mediatrix of all graces.

As a non-Catholic, I don’t understand how anyone could label Mary “co-Redemptrix.” “Co” implies equality. A “co-chair” of a committee is not subordinate to another chair, but equal in power and prestige. To say that Mary is “co” (equal) with Christ is to truly make her into a goddess, which she is not. Also, I don’t understand the argument that she is a “co-Redemptrix” because she was instrumental in God’s plan of salvation. I don’t deny that Mary played a very important role in God’s plan, but by that same logic, Pilate should be called “co-Redeemer,” which is obviously ridiculous; just as Mary was instrumental in Jesus’ life, Pilate was instrumental in His death. Any thoughts?

In Christ,

Chris

 

[mrS4ntA]

Thepeug:

As a non-Catholic, I don’t understand how anyone could label Mary “co-Redemptrix.” “Co” implies equality. A “co-chair” of a committee is not subordinate to another chair, but equal in power and prestige. To say that Mary is “co” (equal) with Christ is to truly make her into a goddess, which she is not. Also, I don’t understand the argument that she is a “co-Redemptrix” because she was instrumental in God’s plan of salvation. I don’t deny that Mary played a very important role in God’s plan, but by that same logic, Pilate should be called “co-Redeemer,” which is obviously ridiculous; just as Mary was instrumental in Jesus’ life, Pilate was instrumental in His death. Any thoughts?

In Christ,

Chris

I think I’ve posted a reply to this in another thread, Praying to Mary, but just in case, here’s what I posted:

From Lumen Gentium,

*"… in suffering with Him as He died on the cross, she cooperated in the work of the Savior, in an altogether singular way, by obedience, faith, hope, and burning love, to restore supernatural life to souls. As a result she is our Mother in the order of grace.

This motherhood of Mary in the economy of grace lasts without interruption, from the consent which she gave in faith at the annunciation, and which she unhesitatingly bore with under the cross, even to the perpetual consummation of all the elect. For after being assumed into heaven, she has not put aside this saving function, but by her manifold intercession, she continues to win the gifts of eternal salvation for us. By her motherly love, she takes care of the brothers of her Son who are still in pilgrimage and in dangers and difficulties, until they be led through to the happy fatherland. For this reason, the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adiutrix, and Mediatrix. This however it to be so understood that it takes nothing away, or adds nothing to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator. For no creature can ever be put on the same level with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer…" *

 

[mrS4ntA]

And also from thread Praying to Mary 2:

But Mary’s place in our Salvation IS crucial and certainly implied in the Bible!

Who, by saying, “Behold the handmaid of the Lord, let it be done with me according to your word,” brought Christ our Saviour to this world – this world which is “…unworthy,” said Saint Augustine, “to receive the Son of God directly from the hands of the Father”? the Blessed Virgin! Crucially, it is **through ** Mary that our Salvation plan is carried out. “[God the Father] gave his Son to Mary for the world to receive him from her.” (emphasizes are mine).

In a sense, God needs Mary in order to reach, redeem and sanctify us men. Not because God needs her in the first degree, because “…this great Lord, who is ever independent and self-sufficient, never had and does not now have any absolute need of the Blessed Virgin for the accomplishment of his will and the manifestation of his glory. To do all things he has only to will them.”

However, “…considering things as they are, because God has decided to begin and accomplish his greatest works through the Blessed Virgin ever since he created her, we can safely believe that he will not change his plan in the time to come, for he is God and therefore does not change in his thoughts or his way of acting. …”

Therefore Mary is crucial to our Salvation – an act that does not stop at the cross of Calvary, but is still going, through God’s graces, until the end of time when we are fully united with the King.

In Christ through Mary,
S4ntA.

NB: the quote in the first paragraph is from St. Augustine, the rest are from St. Louis deMontfort.

 

[tcaseyrochester]

mrS4ntA:

Your point?

There is no point, I said it was a question!!!

 

[mrS4ntA]

tcaseyrochester:

There is no point, I said it was a question!!!

well, I was rather confused, because I did put Immaculate Conception and Mary’s perpetual virginity in the dogma list, so I thought your question made no sense.

 

[tcaseyrochester]

Thepeug:

As a non-Catholic, I don’t understand how anyone could label Mary “co-Redemptrix.”
Chris

Mary had to say yes to God, without Her utter obedience, there would be no Redemption. Therefore, co-Redemptrix!

We could all learn a great deal about humilty and obeidience to God from Mary.

 

[tcaseyrochester]

mrS4ntA:

well, I was rather confused, because I did put Immaculate Conception and Mary’s perpetual virginity in the dogma list, so I thought your question made no sense.

Ah, But I was responding to the original post and hadn’t read all the responses yet. Forgive me?

 

[mrS4ntA]

tcaseyrochester:

Ah, But I was responding to the original post and hadn’t read all the responses yet. Forgive me?

No worries, mate.

 

[Thepeug]

mrS4ntA,

Thanks for the excerpts and the explanations. I can agree with a lot of what you said. Mary suffered when Christ suffered, she raised Him as a child, she was obedient to God and a model example of a Christian, and she probably has a special place in heaven with her Son.

That said, I am still vehemently against the labelling of Mary as “co-Redemptrix.” Even if Mary is the “mediatrix of graces” and an intercessor to God on our behalf, she is not equal with God, which the phrase “co” explicitly denotes. As you stated, God has no literal need for Mary. She has no power without Him. Therefore, she is not equal with God. She is simply a person through whom He chooses (for reasons unknown to us) to work. Christ alone is our Redeemer. Though Mary may play an integral role in Christ’s overall plan, she is not a Redemptrix herself.

I personally think that a dogmatic declaration of Mary as “co-Redemptrix” would mislead a lot of Christians, both Catholic and non-Catholic. After reading and incessantly questioning others about Mary’s relationship to Catholics, I still don’t fully understand her role in the Catholic faith. A casual observer who knows nothing about Catholicism and hears that Mary is the “co-Redeemer with Christ” is inevitably going to assume that Mary and Christ are equal, which is contrary to some of the most fundamental tenets of Christianity. Objections?

In Christ,

Chris

 

[mrS4ntA]

I’m not a linguist expert, but apparently your definition of the prefix “co-” is a little bit off the mark… here’s what I got from this site.

*"The term “co-redemptrix” is properly translated “the woman with the redeemer” or more literally “she who buys back with [the redeemer].” The prefix “co” comes from the Latin term “cum” which means “with” and not “equal to.” Co-redemptrix therefore as applied to Mary refers to her exceptional cooperation with and under her divine son Jesus Christ, in the redemption of the human family, as manifested in Christian Scripture.

With Mary’s free and active “fiat” to the invitation of the angel Gabriel to become the mother of Jesus, “Be it done unto me according to your word” (Lk. 1:38), she uniquely cooperated with the work of redemption by giving the divine Redeemer his body, which was the very instrument of human redemption. “We have been sanctified by the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (Heb. 10:10), and the body of Jesus Christ is given to him through the free, active, and unique cooperation of the Virgin Mary. By virtue of giving flesh to the “Word made flesh” (Jn. 1:14), who in turn redeems humanity, the Virgin of Nazareth uniquely merits the title Co-redemptrix. In the words of the late Mother Teresa of Calcutta, “Of course Mary is the Co-redemptrix - she gave Jesus his body, and his body is what saved us.” [1]

The New Testament prophecy of Simeon in the temple also reveals the suffering, co-redemptive mission of Mary in direct union with her Redeemer son in their one unified work of redemption:
“Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary, his mother, 'Behold, this child is set for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and will be a sign of contradiction, and a sword shall pierce through your own soul, too” (Lk. 2:34-35).

But the climax of Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix under her divine son takes place at the foot of the Cross, where the total suffering of the mother’s heart is obediently united to the suffering of the Son’s heart in fulfillment of the Father’s plan of redemption (cf. Gal. 4:4). As the fruit of this redemptive suffering, Mary is given by the crucified Savior as the spiritual mother of all peoples,: “Woman, behold your son!’ Then he said to the disciple, 'behold, your mother!” (Jn. 19:27). As described by Pope John Paul II, Mary was “spiritually crucified with her crucified son” at Calvary, and “her role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son.” [2] Even after the accomplishment of the acquisition of the graces of redemption at Calvary, Mary’s co-redemptive role continues in the distribution of those saving graces to the hearts of humanity…"*

In Christ through Mary,
S4ntA.