What Role Does Mary Really Play

[beng]

Thepeug:

mrS4ntA,

Thanks for the excerpts and the explanations. I can agree with a lot of what you said. Mary suffered when Christ suffered, she raised Him as a child, she was obedient to God and a model example of a Christian, and she probably has a special place in heaven with her Son.

That said, I am still vehemently against the labelling of Mary as “co-Redemptrix.” Even if Mary is the “mediatrix of graces” and an intercessor to God on our behalf, she is not equal with God, which the phrase “co” explicitly denotes.

Check dictionary for the term “Co-pilot” and “Co-star”

Please tell me who is more important

Pilot or Co-pilot?

Star or Co-star?

As you stated, God has no literal need for Mary. She has no power without Him. Therefore, she is not equal with God.

Nobody says that she is.

She is simply a person through whom He chooses (for reasons unknown to us) to work. Christ alone is our Redeemer. Though Mary may play an integral role in Christ’s overall plan, she is not a Redemptrix herself.

Yes

I personally think that a dogmatic declaration of Mary as “co-Redemptrix” would mislead a lot of Christians, both Catholic and non-Catholic.

Why?

**The Bible already made Paul co-redemptrix

Romans 11:13-14
13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.

1Cor 9:22-23
22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.**

If Protestant can say that what’s written in the Bible is inspired then they shouldn’t have a problem with Paul being Co-redmptrix, much less the Mother of God being co-redemptrix

After reading and incessantly questioning others about Mary’s relationship to Catholics, I still don’t fully understand her role in the Catholic faith.

She is the utmost creation. She is the highest of all coming from God (higher than angels).

Mary is one of those people who could actually change God’s mind John 2:1-11 (well of course God doesn’t change His mind). Something that’s only attributable to Abraham, Moses and Samuel.

A casual observer who knows nothing about Catholicism and hears that Mary is the “co-Redeemer with Christ” is inevitably going to assume that Mary and Christ are equal, which is contrary to some of the most fundamental tenets of Christianity. Objections?

Well, Protestant hears the Body and blood of Jesus but can’t get with the program (in a way). when Catholics confess to a priest, Protestant grumble “How could a mere man forgive sin” etc

So, it’s gonna take a lot of education and apologizing. But it’s not something that we haven’t done before.

 

[Thepeug]

I see what you guys are saying. Beng, I like the references to Paul. I’ve never thought about those passages in that context before. Still, I think Paul would refer to himself as an instrument of God in bringing salvation to others, not as a means of salvation himself.

As you’ve both pointed out, “co” has more than one meanng. Here’s the definition(s) I got:

co- (pref.)

1. Together; joint; jointly; mutually: coeducation.
2. Partner or associate in an activity: coauthor; cofounder.
3. Subordinate or assistant: copilot.
4. To the same extent or degree: coextensive.
5. Complement of an angle: cotangent.

As you can see, one’s interpretaion of the phrase “co-Redemptrix” depends entirely upon which definition one applies to the prefix “co.” For instance, I agree that Mary is a close “associate” of Christ, a “subordinate,” an “assistant.” By contrast, I do not agree that she is the “cofounder” of our salvation. Basically, I’d be more comfortable with the idea of “co-Redemptix” if a different phrase was used. “Co” and “redeemer” are such loaded terms that the dogmatic application of such a title to Mary would foster an even greater degree of misunderstanding among Catholics and Protestants in a faith that is already widely misunderstood.

In Christ,

Chris

 

[beng]

Thepeug:

I see what you guys are saying. Beng, I like the references to Paul. I’ve never thought about those passages in that context before. ** Still, I think Paul would refer to himself as an instrument of God in bringing salvation to others, not as a means of salvation himself. **

Which is what Co-redemptrix would mean to Mary (altough you wouldn’t find any formal definition but that is very very close. plus, because there’s no formal definition by the Catholic Church any attack to the doctrine is built upon straw man arguments)

 

[adorer]

I agree with Thepeug. Using the term co-redemptrix to describe Mary is an immediate red flag to all my protestant friends. However, I will proclaim it with great reverence and love because Christ has willed it through His bride, the Church. Inevitably, protestants will quote 1 Tim 2:5 “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”. I point to the role Moses played as mediator during the Exodus and I also try to make the point that Paul was writing this so that men would know that Christ is God and hence the only way to the father. However, this is a hangup for most protestants. Has anyone ever dealt with this passage?

 

[mrS4ntA]

How about this (from the same site):

*Objection 3:
Calling the Mother of Jesus “Co-redemptrix” or her subsequent role as “Mediatrix” implies a role of mediation by someone other than Jesus Christ, but scripture plainly states in 1 Timothy 2:5 that “there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”, and therefore no creature can rightly be a mediator.

…*

answer is on the site, scroll down.

 

[Mathetes007]

adorer:

However, it is difficult to speak about Mary with my protestant friends because they feel that one only has to believe truths about Jesus to be saved.

Part of having faith in Christ is to believe His word and obey it (Romans 1:5; 6:16; 16:26; Hebrews 5:9). Therefore, if the Lord Jesus tells us that we are to be born again in Baptism to enter the kingdom (John 3:5), we must assent to His word. It is not an option. We must adhere to His word regardless if it’s about Himself, a sacrament, are any other topic He discussed. All of His words are God-breathed and carry the same force.

adorer:

They always ask why we hold Marian doctrines just as binding as say the doctrine on the Trinity. Does anyone know a good way to explain why the Church holds Mary in such high regard as to make beliefs in doctrines about her necessary to enter Heaven?

While on earth, Jesus taught His disciples that Peter would have the power to “bind and loose” (which is a rabbinical phrase meaning teaching authority) the Church. He alone was also given the keys to the kingdom of heaven (leader of the Church). The passage in Matthew (16:18, 19) states that was in bound on earth with be bound in heaven. Since it is impossible for heaven to accept a teaching that is a lie (Hebrews 6:18), it follows that God must be protecting any teaching that is bound on earth from error. Additionally, if the Church was not infallible, the Holy Spirit would not be able to refer to it as the “pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Timothy 3:15).

Jesus did not leave us orphans after He ascended. He promised the Holy Spirit which would “teach” the apostles all truth (John 14:16, 17, 26; 16:13; 2 Corinthians 3:16-18; 1 John 5:7).
Hence, when the Holy Spirit teaches, guides, and protects, we are not at liberty to contradict Him as He brings only truth. To call God’s truth a lie would be a grave sin. “Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit” (1 Thessalonians 4:8). And sin against the Spirit of God is not to be taken lightly as it separates us from God (Matthew 12:31, 32; Acts 5:3-5; Ephesians 4:29, 30; Hebrews 10:26-31). It is on the authority of the Holy Spirit that we must accept all infallible dogmas.

The Holy Spirit has protected the following Marian dogmas from error: Theotokos, Perpetual Virginity, Immaculate Conception, and Assumption.

 

[Ontario]

I am unsure how the Church understands Mary as Mediatrix of ALL graces.

I understand how she is co-redemtrix, Queen of Heaven and all her other titles including Mediatrix of Graces but its the
ALL that perplexes me.

(I must agree with some of our protestant brothers and sisters that the titles often seem highly theological and while true can lead some to the wrong first impression as they do need explanation in light of ambiguity in today’s english language)

I can understand Mediatrix of ALL Graces in the sense that Jesus being God is the source of all Grace and Mary said YES to Gabriel so in that sense she is Mediatrix of ALL Graces to human kind.

I.e. where original sin came to all through Eve, Jesus comes to all through birth by Mary. Eve is the human instrument through which all human kind falls, Mary is the immediate human instrument through which it is possible for us to eventually be redeemed by Christ.

But if this were all there was to the title it would hardly seem worth it other than as a theoretical excercise to give her such a title. (It would affirm that all Grace comes to us through Jesus, but why not just say “All Grace comes to us though Jesus”)

Further, in some of the links I have read it seems to be suggested that ALL graces are dispensed through Mary in a very direct sense. By this I mean that God will never bestow his grace on anyone without doing so through Mary?

Is my perception correct?

Thanks

 

[Michael_Howard]

Ontario:

Further, in some of the links I have read it seems to be suggested that ALL graces are dispensed through Mary in a very direct sense. By this I mean that God will never bestow his grace on anyone without doing so through Mary?

Is my perception correct?

Thanks

I think that (often times) in catholic circles the issue gets obscured with muddled defenses as to Mary’s Vocation and that in some strange way her son Jesus uses her to lead souls to Him. But, I rarley hear folks come out and say “plainly” that yes, ALL graces come through the hands of Mary. I picked a few teachings from the Cathecism to perhaps illuminate the point being raised:

*"This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512 *
**
**
So yes, the Cathecism does clearly say that by her intercession, Mary continues to bring us the gifts of etrenal salvation. If you notice it also states that she has a “saving office”…this represents a type of authority unique among creatures to bring souls salvation by her powerful intercession. She is a prayer warrior, and though a created being, her prayers are a most powerful scourge against the devil in takeing back souls for her Son our lord Jesus. As “mother of the church” in the order of grace (which God bestowed upon her before time)
Christ at the cross by giving her to the disciple He loved also made her mother over the church in the order of grace.

[970](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/970.htm’)* "Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power*. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "**No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; **but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514
**
The Blessed Virgin Mary draws all her power from her Son. It’s on His merits alone that she has been given this saving office to bring the gifts of eternal life to the world. Father John Corapi says that Jesus Christ is His Lord, Master and Redeemer, and Mary is his broker! End of part I

 

[Michael_Howard]

Part II…

She holds and freely distributes the gifts of salvation payed for by her Sons death on Calvary. I also believe that (my opinion) because she is the most humble of creatures, those who do not want to know her or reject her flat out, but love her Son will recieve the merits of Christ and she will lead them to Him anyway. I cannot verify this theologically, only from experience.

I say this from my experience as a convert. Though Mary is not divine, I feel that in some mysterious way she partners with the Holy Spirit to bring down these gifts. She was intimately united with the Holy Spirit at the conception of Jesus. I believe there is a unique ‘partnership’ there that remains hidden. So to answer your origanal question, i believe the Blessed Virgin Mary is intimately involved with every salvation and every conversion experience because Christ has given her this special office to lead souls to Him by the power of the Holy Spirit. I may take some flack for these comments, but this is what I believe.
God Bless you brother

 

[Ontario]

Father John Corapi says that Jesus Christ is His Lord, Master and Redeemer, and Mary is his broker! End of part I

I guess my thoughts are that the Cathechism seems to not explicity say “Mary is the ONLY broker”. It would seem to me to say “Mary is a UNIQUE broker” which to me seems fine.

I honestly can’t see why its not possible for God to have other saints as brokers also or God wouldn’t also choose to sell direct.
Or why its not a one big team effort where God gets everyone involved.At work on team projects everyone has their own unique role. People here on earth bring God’s grace to people (The priest when he baptizes someone or consecrates the Eucharist)

I guess the question is how would we know?

Mary’s immaculate conception is obvious from Tradition (she was still on earth)
Mary’s perpetual virginty is obvious from Tradition (she was still on earth)
Mary’s assumption is obvious from Tradition (she was still on earth)

 

[Annunciata]

We are saved by Jesus Christ not by Mary. However, no Mary, no Jesus…
It would seem to me to be quite evident that the woman who carried our God in her body, nurtured Him, fed Him, instructed Him…Loved Him until death…I think that is a pretty important Role!

 

[Michael_Howard]

Annunciata:

We are saved by Jesus Christ not by Mary. However, no Mary, no Jesus…
It would seem to me to be quite evident that the woman who carried our God in her body, nurtured Him, fed Him, instructed Him…Loved Him until death…I think that is a pretty important Role!