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GodHeals
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Could be a good philosophical argument, but i still like to see using scriptures. Thanks for sharing though!
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GodHeals
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Hey Bob, Thank your for sharing your testimony. It is always nice to hear people’s spiritual journeys. It seems that is was easier for you to make the leap into the Catholic church, than most people? Like one day, you said you had an argument with a protestant pastor, and that was it… You must have been doing some research prior to that?
It seems that the Authority of the Church was an issue after you were bouncing around the mainstream protestant churches? And the Catholic church offered you a little bit more depth into church history, the saints, the sacraments, the traditions, etc.? How do you understand the whole of salvation. I read some interesting things about being in the state of grace; actual grace and sanctifying grace… BUT do you still believe in predestination in the same way as you did as a protestant. I have read that some protestants believe that St. Augustine taught predestination, as they believe today… but even as i don’t know much about Augustine and the reformation, it seems that a lot of protestants today are further from the church than even the reformers where; not even teaching what Calvin taught.
I MYSELF am almost ready to become Catholic, as it was in 2004? when i said i can never become Catholic again, thinking Catholics don’t believe by faith they can be saved… instead works. AND I CAN NEVER BE CATHOLIC; instead calling myself an evangelical protestant (NOT SURE I KNEW WHAT THAT MEANT AT THE TIME). I felt almost anti-Catholic at times - feeling torn CATHOLIC on one end and PROTESTANT on the other, even though i was going regularly to a evangelical church and sometimes to the Catholic church on Holy Days or a weekend here or there. So, that gap has been shrinking and i have been seeing that we have more in common than not, except some of the “big” things… I love the Catholic church, but eventually, will need to take the plunge and revert officially, maybe RCIA, even though i did all the CCD and sacraments as a child.
Long story short: It was my ex-girlfriend, who now speaks on suicide and depression all over the world, testimony that helped me to see that God is real in 2004. Especially, when i was really LOST myself. I was in Christian counseling after we broke up from 06-09, she found me the counselor since i needed serious healing, didn’t know how much at the time. Seeing her faith in action, through speaking engagements and going to bible school (not understanding what God was doing), before we broke up, helped me to get where i am today… seeing that God has a plan for our lives. LONG STORY!!! : ) I have recently been seeing the healing journey merge with the spiritual journey, including the sacraments, which is awesome. I have been in a www.celebraterecovery.com 12 step group for 3 years, and on many healing retreats. I do believe that God has big plans for me, although, i was recently diagnosed with “free running sleep disorder”, which is really rare in sighted people. So, i take it one day at a time.
If you are interested, her name is Kristen Jane Anderson (now married with a different last name): youtube.com/results?search_query=kristen+anderson&oq=kristen+anderson&aq=f&aqi=g5g-s2g2g-s1&aql=&gs_sm=3&gs_upl=465l1275l0l2371l8l5l0l0l0l0l188l601l2.3l5l0
Her book: amazon.com/Life-Spite-Me-Extraordinary-Choice/dp/1601422520/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1329113063&sr=8-3
She started www.reachingyou.org
God Bless You, Bob. Nice to meet you!
PS - Now you know why my alias is GOD HEALS : ) So, are my license plates! GODHLS
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Sacred_Heart_1
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It is not the image of God that makes you ‘immortal’. It is the Spirit of Life that makes you ‘immortal’. Jesus is this Spirit of Life. He just makes it apparent through his sacrifice. No life is without the Holy Spirit, which is the giver of life. What you thought you didn’t have Jesus makes you aware. Animals and plants have the same giver of life that you and I do. Nothing is lost. It is this Spirit that gives life to the soul.
When we receive the sacrifice, as Jesus says we must receive in order to inherit eternal life, its not that our souls are not already eternal–its that we escape Judgment. Even the damned have eternal souls.
Anyways, a human being cannot become immortal because an immortal (God) has perfect Virtue. Immortality doesn’t just mean unable to get sick, age or die. Only a perfect sinless being can be immortal. Such a person has to be immortal in all aspects of being to be immortal. God is the only immortal.
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Della
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You seem to be misunderstanding something here, the Bible is not the sum total of our faith. We don’t need a Bible verse to “back up” everything taught by the Church. The Bible is one of the three supports of our faith, the others being the Magiesterium (all the bishops in the world together with the pope) and the teachings, both oral and written, of the Apostles. This combination of supports is called: Sacred Tradition.
Instead of going by websites that appear to make good arguments, we need to go by what the Church teaches because Jesus established the Church to teach and baptise in his name. Books, even the Bible cannot do those things. Rather, the Bible needs an interpreter and that is the Church. You need to understand this because it is essential to following Christ in his Church. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
2415 The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity. Use of the mineral, vegetable, and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for moral imperatives. Man’s dominion over inanimate and other living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; it is limited by concern for the quality of life of his neighbor, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation.
Plants and animals are animate beings. Rocks, water, soil, etc. are inanimate things. We don’t need a Bible verse to tell us plants are alive when we can see them grow as they take in nourishment recreating more versions of themselves as they reproduce. Rocks, water, soil, etc. do not do these things therefore they are not alive.
No, I’m sorry, but you are using the wrong terminology here. God is eternal, we are immortal. We came into existence in our mother’s wombs and are immortal beings because when God created us in the image of himself, he did endow us with his Spirit. God breathed upon man–gave him his Spirit–and he became a living being–an immortal being.
God, OTOH, is an eternal being since he has existed from all eternity–that’s what eternal means. Jesus told us we would receive eternal life, as opposed to eternal death, which is separation from the eternal God in eternity. Immortal does not mean eternal, it only means “does no die” not “has been alive from all eternity”. See the difference?
We have been redeemed Christ’s redemptive life, death and resurrection, and are saved through living the life of the Spirit–given to us in the graces of the sacraments, which we first receive in baptism.
Plants and animals are not immortal beings, but temporal ones. Their life force exists only as a part of their physical being.
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thewanderer
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When people point out that plants are living they are using one definition of a living being, a being that takes in food and nutrients and uses it to grow so that it can go on to reproduce. If anyone is going to deny that plants are alive, they have to use a different definition of the word ‘alive’.
Those who state that plants are not alive are talking about sentient life, as opposed to the basic nutritive life. And it is true that sentient life is more fully alive than nutritive life, but that doesn’t make the use of the word ‘alive’ wrong when talking about plants.
I find the fact that there is such a distinction between sentient life and plant life in the Bible very intriguing, and it makes sense that there would be a large divide, as there is such a large difference between sentient and non-sentient beings. However, we shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that, with respect to nutritive life, plants must be considered alive because they fulfill all the criteria for this definition of life.
Those who state that plants are not alive are talking about sentient life, as opposed to the basic nutritive life. And it is true that sentient life is more fully alive than nutritive life, but that doesn’t make the use of the word ‘alive’ wrong when talking about plants.
I find the fact that there is such a distinction between sentient life and plant life in the Bible very intriguing, and it makes sense that there would be a large divide, as there is such a large difference between sentient and non-sentient beings. However, we shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that, with respect to nutritive life, plants must be considered alive because they fulfill all the criteria for this definition of life.
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centurionguard
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Best Explanation I’ve seen in this entire thread
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Arizona_Mike
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The two recurring topics on this forum that are always good for at least a hundred responses are “Do animals go to Heaven?” and “What is the Church’s position on tattoos?” 
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GodHeals
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Thank you for sharing your insights. The CCC 2415 states “Animals, like plants and inanimate beings”… either i am or you are misinterpreting what it says. Is it “ANIMALS, LIKE PLANTS AND INANIMATE BEINGS” or what your interpretation “ANIMALS LIKE PLANTS … and inanimate beings” (notice i also removed the , ). I don’t think the CCC2415 was trying to point out that plants are living, but to respect all of God’s creation and therefore wasn’t the proper interpretation… maybe i am wrong?
When it comes to origins, the book of Genesis within scripture is the only insight in all of sacred tradition that offers any explanation to whether or not plants have souls. The Tradition and Magisterium doesn’t have much to say without it. And there is nothing in Genesis, or (even in all of scripture… without twisting things around?), that suggests plants have souls. I think what Answers in Genesis does it great in that they really break it down.
See, if you look at the fall of mankind, before it, there was no death, disease, suffering, etc. That is why plants were the only edible food prior to the fall.
I am still trying to understand how to define soul, spirit, life, etc. as well as better understand CHRISTIAN ANTHROPOLOGY…
I haven’t finished the article, but it is interesting: answersingenesis.org/articles/tj/v6/n2/life
Thanks for thinking through this with me!
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GodHeals
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“Life” or also “Soul”, in my limited understanding, as it it defined in Genesis, cannot apply to both plants and humans/animals. Soul and life are the same. I don’t think each blade of grass has a soul. Take a glance at this article: answersingenesis.org/articles/tj/v6/n2/life
I am still reading through it. As i am still learning about all of this, i think it is very important to understand the terms and see how they are applied, including in Hebrew and the Greek Septuagint (as might be mentioned in the article)…
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Della
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Soul simply means “alive”. Period. It doesn’t say anything about sentience or eternal life or any other definition.
And yes, every blade of grass is animate–it grows, takes in nourishment and reproduces. If it didn’t it would be alive.
You are using too narrow a definition of the word soul here. I don’t care what sophisticated arguments you are reading–the definition cannot be negated. And of course the Bible doesn’t say much about plant life. The authors were not interested in it. God created plants for food, but just because that is their function in relation to humans and animals that doesn’t define their status as alive or not. We also eat animals, but that doesn’t classify them as soulless/inanimate, either.
Plants are alive because they meet the definition of life. That’s the wonder and beauty of creation–that God gave life to more than human beings, but to animals and plants, as well. He did not give them immortal life but rather he animated them so that they have a certain kind of life, some higher/richer in intelligence, but life.
For instance, plants communicate with each other: news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/06/070614-plants.html. It’s chemical not verbal, but it’s a form of identification. Even bacteria have been known to “recognize” others as “friend” or “foe”. All you hve to do is enter plant intelligence into Google and you’ll find lots of articles on the topic. There’s no need, theologically or in any other way of denying plants are alive. Plants bein alive in no way infringes upon nor negates the special creation/place of human beings in creation. God is the giver of life covering the valleys with wheat and proving the grape for wine. Both symbols of the eternal life offered us in the Eucharist.
And yes, every blade of grass is animate–it grows, takes in nourishment and reproduces. If it didn’t it would be alive.
You are using too narrow a definition of the word soul here. I don’t care what sophisticated arguments you are reading–the definition cannot be negated. And of course the Bible doesn’t say much about plant life. The authors were not interested in it. God created plants for food, but just because that is their function in relation to humans and animals that doesn’t define their status as alive or not. We also eat animals, but that doesn’t classify them as soulless/inanimate, either.
Plants are alive because they meet the definition of life. That’s the wonder and beauty of creation–that God gave life to more than human beings, but to animals and plants, as well. He did not give them immortal life but rather he animated them so that they have a certain kind of life, some higher/richer in intelligence, but life.
For instance, plants communicate with each other: news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/06/070614-plants.html. It’s chemical not verbal, but it’s a form of identification. Even bacteria have been known to “recognize” others as “friend” or “foe”. All you hve to do is enter plant intelligence into Google and you’ll find lots of articles on the topic. There’s no need, theologically or in any other way of denying plants are alive. Plants bein alive in no way infringes upon nor negates the special creation/place of human beings in creation. God is the giver of life covering the valleys with wheat and proving the grape for wine. Both symbols of the eternal life offered us in the Eucharist.
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fredeitsh
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That is an excellent question. I think that any animal in loyal service to man deserves its place alongside him in heaven. But who am I to say, it is just a wish.
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Della
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We also have Jesus’ own words to tell us plants are alive, for nothing can die that wasn’t first alive:
John.12:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.
Nor can inanimate objects “bear fruit”.
John.12:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.
Nor can inanimate objects “bear fruit”.
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Bob_Crowley
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It wasn’t quite that simple. I had been getting a push towards the Catholic Church for a while, and I’d been resisting it. The argument was just the straw that broke the camel’s back. I hadn’t been doing a lot research - I’ve read more since. I mean most converts join first, and then examine later, if we’re honest. There are exceptions, but I don’t know of too many atheists with an abiding interest in theology. If they become Christians,** then **they may start reading theology.
I don’t have a great deal of formal training in church teachings, other than what I"ve read. I still tend to put a lot of stock in what my “old protestant pastor” said if I’m going to be truthful, even if he had his own doubts from time to time. Sometimes I think we complicate things too much. As far as I’m concerned, the core elements are faith in Christ, trying not to sin (er, well, not too much anyway), confession (which I don’t do enough of), the eucharist (which is what was mainly missing in my Protestant experience), prayer, the sacraments (esp. Baptism) and general obedience.
However when men get into the act, they can soon make things complicated.
I accept the Pope is head of the Church, and heir of Peter, with power to bind and loose as Christ said, although that’s usually in concert with the magisterium, who I believe are the spiritual descendants of the apostles. I don’t believe in Papal Infallibility, and the Bible seems to be at some pains to make it pretty clear the first “Pope”, Peter, was not exactly “infallible”, yet despite his own fallibility, had the authority to make “rulings” (eg. change his own mind and make a ruling on circumcision and other Jewish laws, and pass an immediate death sentence on Ananias and Sapphira, which couldn’t be changed once it was carried out).
I think Peter’s fallibility is there as an eternal object lesson to future popes and Ultramontanists, as far as I"m concerned. But his authority is also made loud and clear.
There were other Protestant theologians around besides Calvin, but he had possibly the greatest influence. I was never very pre-destination minded myself, and my old pastor was Methodist by training, and they used Arminian Theology, not Calvinistic. So I missed out on the hardline Presbyterian boys.
I do believe in Purgatory, and I think I always had a bit of a suspicion something like it existed. However I had the experience of my father turning up in my room the night he died, and as part of the process exclaiming “I always was doomed! I didn’t have any choice!” I argued about that, but he also admitted, “I was WILLING!”. So I have a suspicion predestination does have some influence, but it is not without our own wills being involved. It’s so subtle that I don’t understand it.
I also read and still have a short autobiography of John Newton, the writer of the song *Amazing Grace. * But he was also a slave trader for years, brutal, foul mouthed, and utterly removed from religion. When I read how just many close escapes he had from dying or being killed, I found it very difficult not to believe that he wasn’t “predestined”, precisely, I would think, as an example of God’s Amazing Grace.
Now I heard from one priest in a homily, that he heard another priest say, in his homily, “I hate that song! (Amazing Grace) I’m not a wretch! You’re not wretches!”
Well, he might be right. But John Newton, who wrote it, was for a large part of his life, a “wretch”. And that’s why he called it, “Amazing Grace”. And he had a very strong sense of personal predestination, because of his background.
I’ll have a look at it sometime. I haven’t heard of her to be honest.
All our stories are different.
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Bob_Crowley
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In my previous reply I said I’d have a look at it sometime. I later realised this might have seemed a bit unenthusiastic, even callous, but the truth is that I’m not much of a one for looking at videos online. I’ve got a strong preference for the written word. It’s probably got something to do with my hearing - I’m significantly hard of hearing, and I need headphones turned up pretty loud to get the message off online videos. I don’t listen to radio much for the same reason.
Sorry if I sounded a bit blunt, but that was at the back of my mind. There are quite a lot of posts that recommend video patches, and rarely do I look them up, unless it’s for a visual spectacle rather than a spoken one.
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Evan
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Cardinal Ratzinger was not infallible, yet Benedict XVI is.
When we read of Peter in the gospels: he is not Pope; he is a follower of Jesus. He is elevated to Pope only at Pentecost. Only then does he represent Christ on Earth, only then has the Holy Spirit been sent to guide the Church into all truth. Before that, he was just another sinner, unable to speak with authority on matters of faith and morals. He was still in the seminary with Jesus as his professor (what a great professor!!!).
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LegoGE1947
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I can only hope there are no cockroaches, ants, mice, rats, houseflies, mosquitoes, spiders or scorpions in heaven!
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Della
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I rather like mice and spiders (not all spiders, I have to admit). Mice are mammals, warm-blooded and sweet in their own way. We see them as vermin because they often carry diseases, leave their droppings everywhere, and eat our food, but that’s our perspective of them not God’s, I imagine. I’m friends with the water spiders in my house because they eat mosquitoes. I agree with you about the mosquitoes–their kind deserve to die!I can only hope there are no cockroaches, ants, mice, rats, houseflies, mosquitoes, spiders or scorpions in heaven!
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GodHeals
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Now we are talking… SCRIPTURE! : )
I am looking into that, thank you so much for reminding me of that verse!
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GodHeals
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That is interesting, is there somewhere that states this within Catholic literature? I am curious… Thanks!
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GodHeals
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Hi Bob, You know your heart and motivations better than me! I wasn’t offended. I just thought you might not be that interested, and this is OK. Sometimes, i get to sharing too much with people, whether or not they are interested. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOU HONESTY AND FOR FURTHER SHARING YOUR THOUGHTS! GOD BLESS YOU!!!
Brian
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