What separates Eastern Catholicism from Eastern Orthodoxy?

[Cristiano]

I’m not an expert on the Melkite Church, however a statement that says “we believe everything,” is pretty easy to interpret.

If what you are trying to imply were true then the Easten Catholics in the Melkite Church would believe that the priests and bishops in the Latin Church do not have the authority to confer valid sacraments because some of the eastern Orthodox claim that. That results in a inner contradiction of the Eastern Catholic Churches in accordance with the Latin Church the believe that their holy orders are valid and in accordance to the belief common to some Orthodox Churches their own holy orders are not valid. This does not make sense at all. I thing that you are just assuming a level of generalization that it is not true.

 

[ConstantineTG]

If what you are trying to imply were true then the Easten Catholics in the Melkite Church would believe that the priests and bishops in the Latin Church do not have the authority to confer valid sacraments because some of the eastern Orthodox claim that. That results in a inner contradiction of the Eastern Catholic Churches in accordance with the Latin Church the believe that their holy orders are valid and in accordance to the belief common to some Orthodox Churches their own holy orders are not valid. This does not make sense at all. I thing that you are just assuming a level of generalization that it is not true.

Maybe you can ask that question to the adherents of the Zoghby Initiative. There are a lot of them around.

 

[Cristiano]

Maybe you can ask that question to the adherents of the Zoghby Initiative. There are a lot of them around.

You are the only one bringing it up to explain things. I did not see anyone using it as an argument to support your theories. Why should I talk to people that probably would agree with me?

 

[Cristiano]

Again let me reiterate that the problem here is that people look at the Eastern (Orthodox) practice with Roman goggles. …
And if you are an Eastern Catholic who is committed to live the Eastern spirituality, this is the Eastern spirituality. Its not Canon Law and Magisterial documents, the Eastern spirituality is built upon the expeirence of the teachers and Fathers of the East from the faith handed down to us from the Apostles. You can’t legislate against that. If you do, then it is not Eastern spirituality you are living, but rather you are just following the motions of Eastern traditions but the spirituality is hollow. You are actually living Western spirituality and you are nothing more than a Roman Catholic with Eastern Liturgies and traditions, but not spirituality and faith.

Is it possible that maybe you are the one that might have the wrong understanding of things? I am starting to thing that now you are just trying to find a way to say that you are right even if you are fundamentally wrong. You choose to ignore what other people present and you just state personal opinions that have nothing to do with the teachings of the Church. That started from the very beginning when you were mixing theology with doctrines and now you go back to the starting point and you mix again doctrines with theology. Isn’t it possible that the other people have a better understanding of the teachings of the Church (Latin and Eastern) and they are not biased by their own individual perception of things?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Is it possible that maybe you are the one that might have the wrong understanding of things? I am starting to thing that now you are just trying to find a way to say that you are right even if you are fundamentally wrong.

I’ve reconfirmed with my Orthodox priest friend and that is the answer he gave me. I’ve paraphrased a bit as I don’t want to just post his actual email to me, I didn’t tell him my question was meant to settle an internet debate.

You choose to ignore what other people present and you just state personal opinions that have nothing to do with the teachings of the Church. That started from the very beginning when you were mixing theology with doctrines and now you go back to the starting point and you mix again doctrines with theology. Isn’t it possible that the other people have a better understanding of the teachings of the Church (Latin and Eastern) and they are not biased by their own individual perception of things?

I am not stating personal opinions. These are the spirituality of the Orthodox. Now as Eastern Catholics we have to ask ourselves, are we “Orthodox in spirituality and in communion with Rome”, or are we “Roman Catholic in spirituality with Eastern Orthodox Liturgies and traditions”. If we are the latter, then you are correct. If we are the former, then I am correct.

 

[Bookcat]

These are the spirituality of the Orthodox. Now as Eastern Catholics we have to ask ourselves, are we “Orthodox in spirituality and in communion with Rome”, or are we “Roman Catholic in spirituality with Eastern Orthodox Liturgies and traditions”. If we are the latter, then you are correct. If we are the former, then I am correct.

Well some Orthodox may hold such (Orthodox Churches etc can vary…I do not say one way or the other here --for such was simply NOT the question of the thread).

As to what Catholics to follow?? --such has been posted above forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9756915&postcount=108.

It is a false notion …a false dcotomy… to say:

Now as Eastern Catholics we have to ask ourselves, are we “Orthodox in spirituality and in communion with Rome”, or are we “Roman Catholic in spirituality with Eastern Orthodox Liturgies and traditions”.

Eastern Catholics are that – Catholics — of the various Eastern Catholic Churches. All forming part of the Catholic Church.

Eastern Catholics are not Roman Catholics in that sense --they are Melkite Catholics etc etc etc Nor are they “Roman Catholic in spirituality with Eastern Orthodox Liturgies and traditions” they are Eastern Catholics of the various Sui Juris Eastern Catholic Churches. They follow the Eastern Code of Canon Law etc etc (see above) as Eastern Catholics with their own law.

What some Orthodox brothers of ours may or may not hold or practice is simply not the question of this thread.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Well some Orthodox may hold such (Orthodox Churches etc can vary…I do not say one way or the other here --for such was simply NOT the question of the thread).

As to what Catholics to follow?? --such has been posted above forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9756915&postcount=108.

It is a false notion …a false dcotomy… to say one is either:

Eastern Catholics are that – Catholics — of the various Eastern Catholic Churches. All forming part of the Catholic Church.

Eastern Catholics are not Roman Catholics in that sense --they are Melkite Catholics etc etc etc Nor are they “Roman Catholic in spirituality with Eastern Orthodox Liturgies and traditions” they are Eastern Catholics of the various Sui Juris Eastern Catholic Churches and following the Eastern Code of Canon Law etc etc (see above) make them Catholic. Eastern Catholics.

What some Orthodox brothers of ours may or may not hold or practice is simply not the question of this thread.

See, you don’t even know what the issue is. You say that Eastern Catholics are Catholics, meaning they should adhere to the Canon Law of Rome. Then you say that they are not Roman Catholics. If you adhere to Rome’s spirituality, that is, driven by her code of Canons, then you are Roman Catholic. You can call yourself whatever you want, Melkite, Ukrainian, Traditional, Old Style, whatever, that is Roman Catholic spirituality. The East has a distinct spirituality that is not like Roman spirituality. The expectation upon the Eastern Churches coming into communion with Rome was that their spirituality will not be tampered with. And we all know that is not the case. So now as Eastern Catholics, we need to define ourselves. Who are we? Do we live Orthodox spirituality or not?

I find it funny to that yourself who is Roman Catholic is telling me who is Eastern Catholic what an Eastern Catholic is. It is like me, who is Filipino and lives in Canada, telling you what an American is.

 

[Cristiano]

…I am not stating personal opinions. These are the spirituality of the Orthodox. Now as Eastern Catholics we have to ask ourselves, are we “Orthodox in spirituality and in communion with Rome”, or are we “Roman Catholic in spirituality with Eastern Orthodox Liturgies and traditions”. If we are the latter, then you are correct. If we are the former, then I am correct.

I think that here you are pushing the tertium non datur fallacy. Spirituality, theology and doctrines cannot be intermixed. Just within the Latin Church we have different types of spirituality, different theological understandings, and we still have the same doctrines. It seem to me that you even refuse to accept that some Orthodox Churches are not in communion with other Orthodox Churches and they differ on legal, theological, and spiritual aspects. There is not a single Orthodox spirituality, not a single Orthodox theology and not a single Orthodox set of canons that are completely uniform across the whole spectrum of the Orthodox Churches.

 

[TrueLight]

I’ve reconfirmed with my Orthodox priest friend and that is the answer he gave me. I’ve paraphrased a bit as I don’t want to just post his actual email to me, I didn’t tell him my question was meant to settle an internet debate.

I am not stating personal opinions. These are the spirituality of the Orthodox. Now as Eastern Catholics we have to ask ourselves, are we “Orthodox in spirituality and in communion with Rome”, or are we “Roman Catholic in spirituality with Eastern Orthodox Liturgies and traditions”. If we are the latter, then you are correct. If we are the former, then I am correct.

Wouldn’t it make more sense to ask an EC priest?

Is it possible you are looking at Eastern Catholicism with Orthodox goggles?

The answers have not been uniform even from the EC’s.

So i will repeat what someone else asked. Is it possible you may be wrong?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Wouldn’t it make more sense to ask an EC priest?

Well, I asked our priest before on a certain topic and I ended my question with, “how do we treat this matter? Do we follow what the Roman Catholic Church teaches or do we believe the way the Orthodox believe?” And he responded with, “we believe the way the Orthodox believe.”

Feel free to send the likes of Fr. Tom Loya or Fr. Roman Galadza this question and see what they say.

Is it possible you are looking at Eastern Catholicism with Orthodox goggles?

It should be one and the same. Are you also suggesting that Eastern Catholics are nothing more than Roman Catholics with an Orthodox Liturgy?

The answers have not been uniform even from the EC’s.

What do you think the Popes meant when they said that the ECs need to rediscover their authentic traditions? Do you think they are just talking about a by-the-book celebration of the Divine Liturgy with iconostas and no pews and no kneeling? Yet we believe as the Roman Catholics believe?

So i will repeat what someone else asked. Is it possible you may be wrong?

That is why I posed the question, and I will pose it again, are we “Orthodox in spirituality and in communion with Rome,” or are we “Roman Catholic in spirituality with Orthodox Liturgies and traditions (as in practices, externals)”? The former means I am right, the latter means I am wrong. The answer to your question lies in there.

 

[lssanjose]

Well, I asked our priest before on a certain topic and I ended my question with, “how do we treat this matter? Do we follow what the Roman Catholic Church teaches or do we believe the way the Orthodox believe?” And he responded with, “we believe the way the Orthodox believe.”

Feel free to send the likes of Fr. Tom Loya or Fr. Roman Galadza this question and see what they say.

It should be one and the same. Are you also suggesting that Eastern Catholics are nothing more than Roman Catholics with an Orthodox Liturgy?

What do you think the Popes meant when they said that the ECs need to rediscover their authentic traditions? Do you think they are just talking about a by-the-book celebration of the Divine Liturgy with iconostas and no pews and no kneeling? Yet we believe as the Roman Catholics believe?

That is why I posed the question, and I will pose it again, are we “Orthodox in spirituality and in communion with Rome,” or are we “Roman Catholic in spirituality with Orthodox Liturgies and traditions (as in practices, externals)”? The former means I am right, the latter means I am wrong. The answer to your question lies in there.

To answer the last question, I’ll take a stab: The first answer. I say this out of discovering how deeply interconnected our liturgy, traditions, and spirituality are, they inform each other seamlessly. I remember speaking with my Orthodox friend who has done his fair share of surveying liturgical history in both the East, and West. He mentioned something about the liturgical services, and traditions informing a great deal about the orthodox faith, to paraphrase his what he said to me. He mentioned this, when I asked him about the place of Western Rite Orthodoxy, within the greater world of Holy Orthodoxy.

I don’t know where, in history, the liturgical practices, traditions, and spirituality started becoming disjointed in the west (Latin Rite masses, and services), but a lot of what I’m finding in the west, doesn’t make sense to me. I’m not saying they’re wrong, but they just don’t make sense to me.

As it pertains to the issue at hand, regarding receiving communion in grave sin, I think the consensus (I think so, anyways) is one shouldn’t receive. I don’t think it should take a debate over canon law(s). I suppose the splitting hairs action comes from the definition of what really defines grave sin; and what really defines contrite of heart.

I think that’s why I like the Eastern mentality: that’s between the confessee, and the confessor (spiritual father).

 

[Bookcat]

Well, I asked our priest before on a certain topic and I ended my question with, “how do we treat this matter? Do we follow what the Roman Catholic Church teaches or do we believe the way the Orthodox believe?” And he responded with, “we believe the way the Orthodox believe.”

He would be mistaken if he would say such regarding this. But you note that it was about a different thing.

(leaving aside what Orthodox may or may not believe…not to mention that they are not necessarily of the same mind on this or other things)

But saying that one is doing the same as the Eastern Orthodox on many things is going to make sense (for you share much and much is the same where it may differ from Roman custom etc) --but not on this topic (hence you mention it was a “certain topic” NOT this topic). For this the way in all the Catholic Churches.

 

[lssanjose]

He would be mistaken if he would say such regarding this. But you note that it was about a different thing.

(leaving aside what Orthodox may or may not believe…not to mention that they are not necessarily of the same mind on this or other things)

But saying that one is doing the same as the Eastern Orthodox on many things is going to make sense (for you share much and much is the same where it may differ from Roman custom etc) --but not on this topic (hence you mention it was a “certain topic” NOT this topic). For this the way in all the Catholic Churches.

But Orthodoxy is the source of our traditions, something Blessed John Paul II said Eastern Catholics need to revive, and preserve. Traditions aren’t just actions, but they’re theology, and attitude.

 

[TrueLight]

Clearly the Blessed Pope himself teaches (this is an Apostolic letter, mind you) that the traditions of the East are borne by the Orthodox and the Eastern Catholics. We have the same traditions, the same beliefs, the same spirituality. Anyone who says otherwise simple are not speaking what THE CATHOLIC CHURCH THROUGH THE POPE teaches.

I have seen Orthodox say on this very forum that Orthodox and EC’s don’t have the same beliefs in totality. In fact, all you need to do is visit some Orthodox forums and you will see the same?

And in fact, without digging up any threads, I have seen you say or imply that one cannot be an EC if one wants to stay faithful to their Orthodox beliefs. Is my memory fooling me?

So why is that an issue if all the beliefs are the same. Why do you want to leave the Eastern Catholic Church?

Also, you have a couple of EC’s contradicting you right in this very thread.

Your understanding here is simply mistaken. You cannot simply say “hey some of the Eastern Orthodox accept contraception and allow remarriage for someone who is already married --so we can in the Eastern Catholic Churches too” etc

Did he say that? Whoah, that’s a whole other ballgame.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I have seen Orthodox say on this very forum that Orthodox and EC’s don’t have the same beliefs in totality. In fact, all you need to do is visit some Orthodox forums and you will see the same.

That is from their perspective. This is from Blessed Pope John Paul II’s teaching. As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, the Eastern Catholics believe what the Orthodox believe. What the Orthodox Church think or believe is their own concern. We do not have to always align what we think with what they think.

The issue here is Bookcat is denying that the ECs believe what the Orthodox believe. Blessed Pope John Paul II says that the ECs do believe what the Orthodox believe. That is that. What the Orthodox believe is besides the point of this conversation.

 

[Bookcat]

That is from their perspective. This is from Blessed Pope John Paul II’s teaching. As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, the Eastern Catholics believe what the Orthodox believe. What the Orthodox Church think or believe is their own concern. We do not have to always align what we think with what they think.

The issue here is Bookcat is denying that the ECs believe what the Orthodox believe. Blessed Pope John Paul II says that the ECs do believe what the Orthodox believe. That is that. What the Orthodox believe is besides the point of this conversation.

Again: mistaken premise.

(and Bl. John Paul II is not going to sign off on such. Bearers of the same Tradition is not the same as they believe the same as the Orthodox…heck even the difficulty regarding the Pope is there for starts!)

 

[ConstantineTG]

And in fact, without digging up any threads, I have seen you say or imply that one cannot be an EC if one wants to stay faithful to their Orthodox beliefs. Is my memory fooling me?

I answered Bookcat’s assertion that the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that the ECs believe what the Orthodox believe. Obviously the Apostolic Letter confirms that the ECs should believe what the EOs believe. At least that is what the CC teaches. Whether it actually happens is another question. But because the Pope said as much, it means if there is an Eastern Catholic parish out there talking about mortal and venial sins, then it is they who are wrong for not following the Pope in living an authentic Eastern spirituality. It is not us who make the claim that we must live the Eastern spirituality who are wrong.

So why is that an issue if all the beliefs are the same. Why do you want to leave the Eastern Catholic Church?

To be frank? Because of people like Bookcat. How can I focus on my spirituality when I am constantly bombarded by RCs telling me I’m not Catholic enough? Maybe that is the solution, don’t be Catholic, and leave me in peace. But don’t mistake this is the only issue. My issues can span a 20-page thread on its own.

Also, you have a couple of EC’s contradicting you right in this very thread.

That doesn’t prove anything.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Again: mistaken premise.

(and Bl. John Paul II is not going to sign off on such. Bearers of the same Tradition is not the same as they believe the same as the Orthodox…heck even the difficulty regarding the Pope is there for starts!)

What else does tradition mean?

 

[Bookcat]

What else does tradition mean?

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a2.htm#I

Long text there to read. And make sure to note this part:

Apostolic Tradition and ecclesial traditions

83 The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus’ teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.

Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church’s Magisterium.

 

[lssanjose]

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a2.htm#I

Long text there to read. And make sure to note this part:

Apostolic Tradition and ecclesial traditions

83 The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus’ teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.

Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church’s Magisterium.

With all due respect, bookcat, you’re talking in circles. Once you empty the Latin cup, you’ll be talking in a straight line.

Why do traditions need to be distinguished from one another? You’re sweating the wrong small stuff.