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Bookcat
Guest
I refer you to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
- Status
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dzheremi
Guest
Either Eastern Catholics’ roots are in the Eastern Orthodox churches from whence they came, and so that is their authentic spiritual tradition, or they’re not. It’s pretty simple, folks.
See, that is why I could never be Eastern Catholic and essentially had to become Orthodox (not that anyone forced me to or I did it begrudgingly, but there really wasn’t any other place to go once I realized that the ECC was not the place to be). It is not possible to live an Orthodox life in all things but union with the actual Orthodox Church. When you are with the Latins, even if they theoretically (and very much in practice, too) should like to encourage you to return to your authentic traditions…well, if your authentic traditions are found in the Orthodox Church, what can you do? This is one case where if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it still isn’t a duck, because returning to the true spirituality of your fathers is not ultimately a matter of having Byzantine hymns (though that is one facet of it), or icons (though that is one facet of it), or fasts (though that is one part of it)…it’s the whole life. It is all these things working together such that if one is stifled in favor of adopting some Latin tradition or Latin viewpoint (after all, it’s what’s in the CCC!), then you are stuck in the kind of situation that Constantine and many others seem to be in: Trying desperately to maintain their Catholicism but without the means to make it work, since the faith as they know it is not what they see practiced in the living traditions of their church. Instead it is a hodgepodge: This from the parent (Orthodox) tradition, and this from the Latin. This from St. Vladimir’s seminary, this from Immaculate Conception seminary. Is it any wonder that so many eventually decide that they can’t live in the created “space in-between”? That to be orthodox they have to…well, be Orthodox?
I bring all this up not to malign the Latins or the ECCs, but to highlight the differences that we see playing out in this thread precisely because Latin Catholics, by virtue of their being Latin Catholics, never experience this tension. I have seen many comments about how the Church’s catholicity is borne out of the great diversity in her accepted ritual and spirituality, as evidenced by the ECCs of many flavors. And that’s fine. But, I want to submit to you, all thinking Latins and ECs alike, that the opposite does not hold. That while the Latin can look at a Maronite or a Chaldean or a Syro-Malabar and say “how beautiful is our church!” and it means essentially nothing beyond the confirmation of the church’s catholicity (not because they don’t truly care about the other churches, but because they’re quite simply not the Latin’s church, so he cannot experience them as the EC does), for the Eastern Christian the Latin tradition, being that which has historically and currently had the force of the Pope and the Catholic apologists most strongly behind it, has been a source of estrangement from his traditional spirituality, to whatever degree. It’s not a matter of seeing anything wrong with Latin ways, in and of themselves, but that they belong to their own context, and the more that they are taken to stand in for what is “Catholic”, the less and less the Easterner feels it even possible to be Catholic and traditional according to his own traditions, even though that is what he is (confusingly) called to do by the Roman Pope, who is of course the Latin Pope, not an Eastern or Oriental Patriarch.
So I really feel for the Eastern Catholics, whether faithful according to an outsider’s view or not. They are in a tough spot. I do not personally believe it is tenable, but perhaps that is secondary to the witness they may live out in their own societies, to whatever extent they are able to do that. While never having been EC myself, I have tasted a bit of what they must go through in my own struggle to maintain my union with the Roman Pope, which as we can see I lost. What can I say? Some things were not meant to hold together. But I still pray that, for those who can negotiate this tension successfully, that they be able to do so through fidelity to their traditional sources of spirituality and the modes of expression associated with them. I have heard some very, very good renditions of Syriac chant, for instance, among the Syro-Malabar of India (see the CD “Qambel Maran: Syriac Chants from South India”, PAN Records, NL), but these of course were monastics, and that is another ballgame entirely…perhaps a revitalization of the monastic spirit among the ECs will do what complaining about Latinizations will not do, but then we’d have to hope that the monastic experience would likewise be kept pure, which I don’t know if I can say is realistic based on what evidence I’ve seen (Egyptian Catholic Franciscans, instead of monastics…Lord have mercy! Even in the heart of Christian monasticism itself, we have Latin Egyptians following Francis of Assisi…it boggles the mind). We await a rediscovery of serious Eastern and Oriental monasticism as in the footsteps of Mar Maroun, as that would be a big signal for both ECs and Orthodox that there has been the beginnings of the much-desired change in ontology toward one common mode of living, without which hopes of true union between East and West seem like very fanciful wishes.
See, that is why I could never be Eastern Catholic and essentially had to become Orthodox (not that anyone forced me to or I did it begrudgingly, but there really wasn’t any other place to go once I realized that the ECC was not the place to be). It is not possible to live an Orthodox life in all things but union with the actual Orthodox Church. When you are with the Latins, even if they theoretically (and very much in practice, too) should like to encourage you to return to your authentic traditions…well, if your authentic traditions are found in the Orthodox Church, what can you do? This is one case where if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it still isn’t a duck, because returning to the true spirituality of your fathers is not ultimately a matter of having Byzantine hymns (though that is one facet of it), or icons (though that is one facet of it), or fasts (though that is one part of it)…it’s the whole life. It is all these things working together such that if one is stifled in favor of adopting some Latin tradition or Latin viewpoint (after all, it’s what’s in the CCC!), then you are stuck in the kind of situation that Constantine and many others seem to be in: Trying desperately to maintain their Catholicism but without the means to make it work, since the faith as they know it is not what they see practiced in the living traditions of their church. Instead it is a hodgepodge: This from the parent (Orthodox) tradition, and this from the Latin. This from St. Vladimir’s seminary, this from Immaculate Conception seminary. Is it any wonder that so many eventually decide that they can’t live in the created “space in-between”? That to be orthodox they have to…well, be Orthodox?
I bring all this up not to malign the Latins or the ECCs, but to highlight the differences that we see playing out in this thread precisely because Latin Catholics, by virtue of their being Latin Catholics, never experience this tension. I have seen many comments about how the Church’s catholicity is borne out of the great diversity in her accepted ritual and spirituality, as evidenced by the ECCs of many flavors. And that’s fine. But, I want to submit to you, all thinking Latins and ECs alike, that the opposite does not hold. That while the Latin can look at a Maronite or a Chaldean or a Syro-Malabar and say “how beautiful is our church!” and it means essentially nothing beyond the confirmation of the church’s catholicity (not because they don’t truly care about the other churches, but because they’re quite simply not the Latin’s church, so he cannot experience them as the EC does), for the Eastern Christian the Latin tradition, being that which has historically and currently had the force of the Pope and the Catholic apologists most strongly behind it, has been a source of estrangement from his traditional spirituality, to whatever degree. It’s not a matter of seeing anything wrong with Latin ways, in and of themselves, but that they belong to their own context, and the more that they are taken to stand in for what is “Catholic”, the less and less the Easterner feels it even possible to be Catholic and traditional according to his own traditions, even though that is what he is (confusingly) called to do by the Roman Pope, who is of course the Latin Pope, not an Eastern or Oriental Patriarch.
So I really feel for the Eastern Catholics, whether faithful according to an outsider’s view or not. They are in a tough spot. I do not personally believe it is tenable, but perhaps that is secondary to the witness they may live out in their own societies, to whatever extent they are able to do that. While never having been EC myself, I have tasted a bit of what they must go through in my own struggle to maintain my union with the Roman Pope, which as we can see I lost. What can I say? Some things were not meant to hold together. But I still pray that, for those who can negotiate this tension successfully, that they be able to do so through fidelity to their traditional sources of spirituality and the modes of expression associated with them. I have heard some very, very good renditions of Syriac chant, for instance, among the Syro-Malabar of India (see the CD “Qambel Maran: Syriac Chants from South India”, PAN Records, NL), but these of course were monastics, and that is another ballgame entirely…perhaps a revitalization of the monastic spirit among the ECs will do what complaining about Latinizations will not do, but then we’d have to hope that the monastic experience would likewise be kept pure, which I don’t know if I can say is realistic based on what evidence I’ve seen (Egyptian Catholic Franciscans, instead of monastics…Lord have mercy! Even in the heart of Christian monasticism itself, we have Latin Egyptians following Francis of Assisi…it boggles the mind). We await a rediscovery of serious Eastern and Oriental monasticism as in the footsteps of Mar Maroun, as that would be a big signal for both ECs and Orthodox that there has been the beginnings of the much-desired change in ontology toward one common mode of living, without which hopes of true union between East and West seem like very fanciful wishes.
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Marybeloved
Guest
The only confusion or ‘‘tension’’ I see in this thread is from Eastern Catholics with a bad, bad understanding of Latin Catholicism and who are on top of it all relying on the teaching of Eastern Orthodox instead of Eastern Catholics. There are good examples in this very same thread (and many more in the sub-forum) of Eastern Catholics who suffer no such complexes.
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lssanjose
Guest
Great post, brother. I’ll have to say it’s been tough, personally. Because I do feel the pull of the Eastern traditions. I’ve become good friends with local Orthodox brethren. I also soak up whatever material I can find on Orthodoxy. An individual on a different forum informed us his catechism was based on a multitude of Orthodox texts. I also remember archmandrite Geiger saying we should stay loyal to our Orthodox Identity (which, in a holistic sense, is theology, practice, attitude, ritual), yet remain loyal to the Roman See.
I just feel a bit at odds, about the Byzantine Catholic approach to the married clergy in the United States. I was hoping there’d be stronger backbones on the behalf of the married clergy tradition. It, however, seems as though the “heads of state.” are still in a state of appeasement to the overlording American Latin Rite catholic bishops.
I just feel a bit at odds, about the Byzantine Catholic approach to the married clergy in the United States. I was hoping there’d be stronger backbones on the behalf of the married clergy tradition. It, however, seems as though the “heads of state.” are still in a state of appeasement to the overlording American Latin Rite catholic bishops.
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lssanjose
Guest
Bad understanding of Latin Catholicism? I don’t know about that. There are some of us, who’ve been cradle Roman, gone through catechism, and studied Augustinian thought, etc. I’ve been through my lessons of Brad Pitre, and Jeff Cavins, Christopher West, et al.
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Marybeloved
Guest
If you’ve studied Latin Catholicism with any seriousness, you certainly don’t show it in this thread. Being born in the rite means nothing as far as understanding the Church’s teaching- not in post VII Latin Catholicism, I think we all know that.
(PS:- You didn’t mention St. Thomas Aquinas, Sts Teresa and John of Avila, St Catherine of Siena, The little flower, St Louis de Monteforte, St Alphonsus Liguori, St Francis de Sales, St Ignatius etc- Have you read any of the spiritual (and theological) teachers of the Latin tradition? Or did you just concentrate on some regular theologians? I don’t know those people you mentioned except Chris West. Also, really Christopher West is in some trouble with many renowned theologians in Rome for some of his teachings- He’s not a theologian, he’s not a scholar. Just a good Catholic trying to spread the truth he has found in some of Blessed JP II’s work. Also the Latin West has several diversities within itself- We even have five great spiritual traditions. I believe the Jesuits and Franciscans even have a centuries old controversy over the definition of ‘‘grace’’ that once became so big, the pope had to tell them- Cool it with the bickering or else. Many here just seem to pick a rather protestant understanding and impose it on a tradition that is so diverse)
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Well you’ve convinced me. Maybe this Sunday when I attend Divine Litrugy at the OCA, it’s time to tell Father to “sign me up!”
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Aramis
Guest
Many UGCC and Ruthenian GCC Pastors are of the attitude that the only differences between the Orthodox and the Catholics should be the commemorations of the pope and acceptance of Rome’s place as the final arbiter.
As in, “Orthodox in Communion with Rome”… and I’ll note that I’ve seen observance of certain fasts in the Ruthenian church that the local OCA faithful aren’t even aware of.
So, yes, we are tinted with “orthodox goggles” in our views - because that’s what we are expected to do by our priests. (Note: not ALL our priests are so inclined, either.)
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lssanjose
Guest
Well said, brother Aramis.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Just to be clear, I’m joking about the part that dzheremi convinced me to do anything.Well you’ve convinced me. Maybe this Sunday when I attend Divine Litrugy at the OCA, it’s time to tell Father to “sign me up!”
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TrueLight
Guest
You can do that, but I have a feeling you will be back once you find out the grass is not always greener.Well you’ve convinced me. Maybe this Sunday when I attend Divine Litrugy at the OCA, it’s time to tell Father to “sign me up!”
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ConstantineTG
Guest
I’m not looking for greener grass in this world, I know that the grass is only green in the Kingdom. I will go where I believe I will have the best chance to get there.You can do that, but I have a feeling you will be back once you find out the grass is not always greener.
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ByzCathCantor
Guest
Stay tuned!
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lssanjose
Guest
On what Bat Channel, on what Bat Day; at what Bat time, Batman? I’ll keep my senses peeled
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Elizium23
Guest
Same Bat-Time, same Bat-Chapel!On what Bat Channel, on what Bat Day; at what Bat time, Batman? I’ll keep my senses peeled
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Peter_J
Guest
Seriously, I sorry to say that we live in a, if you will, “no-fault-divorce world”; but I think I know Constantine well enough to say that he wouldn’t switch sides with the idea of “I’ll just switch back if the grass isn’t greener on the Orthodox side.”
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TrueLight
Guest
Yeah and I know him enough to say he will not let shame at making a mistake keep him where he shouldn’t be either.
Seriously, I sorry to say that we live in a, if you will, “no-fault-divorce world”; but I think I know Constantine well enough to say that he wouldn’t switch sides with the idea of “I’ll just switch back if the grass isn’t greener on the Orthodox side.”
God will show him what he needs to do.
Some of us go through physical trials and some through spiritual.
All these long threads are not in vain no matter how it seems and will be brought back to his remembrance.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Sometimes the grass IS greener on the other side
Seriously, I sorry to say that we live in a, if you will, “no-fault-divorce world”; but I think I know Constantine well enough to say that he wouldn’t switch sides with the idea of “I’ll just switch back if the grass isn’t greener on the Orthodox side.”
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ConstantineTG
Guest
It really is useless to assert what the ECs believe if you yourself know nothing about it. All you have are baseless assumptions built on false pretenses. Sorry, I don’t mean to be mean, just honest. You make all these claims about the ECs faith yet you know nothing in reality about the ECs. Not everything can be read from a book, or googled. Not everything you see on CNN is what is actually happening in a foreign land. That is just how it is. You made assumptions, and plenty of people make this mistake, but they are not true.
The truth is our faith is built up by our tradition which has developed over the centuries from the time of the Apostles. This includes the time that our Churches were 100% with the Orthodox and not with Rome. That is why there is no way that Rome dictates our faith. And the Popes have time and again acclaimed that we rediscover and reclaim our traditions and our identity. No matter how many links you post, they are all wrong. That is the simple truth. And this is coming from someone who actually lives the Eastern Catholic faith.
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Peter_J
Guest
Sometimes the grass IS greener on the other side
Yes, I don’t see any way of disputing that. As I’ve said before, if I had been born into the Episcopal Church USA, you can be sure I would leave it – which is, of course, in no way buying into the “no-fault divorce” mentality.- Status