What seperates us from Pagans?

[kbwall]

More than once I’ve heard from Protestants that they don’t it when we pray to saints. Some are more polite than others, but the end result is that they say that we shouldn’t pray to the dead. Some even take it as far as comparing prayers to saints and angels to seances and such by the Pagans.

Now, I know the response to accusations of worshipping Mary, that’s simply a myth. We don’t worship Mary, we ask her to pray for us. But still, some people even after knowing this still have issues with communicated with those who’ve passed, be they Mary, a different saint, or an angel, etc.

What does one say to that?

 

[danserr]

The medieval church distinguished between latreia, dulia, and hyperdulia.

Latreia- worship, this was due to God alone.
dulia- reverence for excellence, this is appropriate to the saints
hyper-dulia- a stronger form of dulia, due to the Virgin Mary.

The pagans had no such distinction. The did not have latreia for zeus and dulia for appollo, the worshipped all of them. And if apollo answered a prayer, they believed he did it on his own power, whereas Catholics recognize that it is God who ansewrs all prayers, but He may do it on behalf of a saint (perhaps as a way of honoring that saint).
And I think understanding our reverence to saints as dulia and not latreia (worship), is helpful because God also honors the saints for their excellence, why shouldn’t we?

 

[Cathoholic]

Communion of Saints, Prayer to the Saints different than paganism

Remember the term “Communion of Saints” refers not merely to persons in Heaven (the Church Triumphant), but also the people in Purgatory (the Church Suffering), and the people who are in a state of grace here on earth now but have a provisional membership (occasionally called the “saints” in the New Testament) until the day of their judgment.

Let’s focus on the Church Triumphant for a moment. That is the PEOPLE who are in Heaven AND the good ANGELS in Heaven.

Jesus opened up the gates of Heaven, so we wouldn’t expect to see Heavenly Saints in the Old Testament writings except for the Angels.

I know some will say what about Elijah going up to “Heaven”? That will have to be a topic for a different thread except to say I have been told the Hebrew word for “Heaven” and “the sky” can mean the same thing.

In Genesis 32, we see the man Jacob Israel wrestling with the Angel of God. Incidentally, Jacob Israel is ALSO likely a microcosm of the Israelite Nation wrestling with God, a sort of “living prophecy” of a peoples wrestling with God that we see fulfilled again and again.

In Genesis 32 when Jacob wrestled with the Angel and commented on his Theophany (a visual manifestation of seeing God – but not the Beatific Vision) he somehow knew he saw God (in this Theophany sense in verse 31). Despite wrestling with this Angel, there is no evidence Jacob thought this wrestling opponent of his was a human (he may have, but the text does not say that). There IS evidence that he knew this was a heavenly being (again verse 31), yet wrestled anyway, probably because he was afraid of his brother Esau and his men and didn’t want to obey the Angel.

But what does Jacob Israel SAY TO this heavenly spirit? Does he say “Well if I say anything to you I’ll be an idolater so I’ll just pretend your not here.”? No!

Jacob asks for the blessing of the Angelic spirit! And the Angel (who’s name was probably Peniel— “el” suggests messenger of God or Ang“el”—but we don’t know that for sure) gave it to him. This is one example. There are probably others and better ones, but this one came to mind.

**GENESIS 32:1-3, 6-7, 23-30 ** 1 Jacob went on his way and the angels of God met him; 2 and when Jacob saw them he said, “This is God’s army!” So he called the name of that place Mahanaim. 3 And Jacob sent messengers before him to Esau his brother in the land of Seir, . . . .6 And the messengers returned to Jacob, saying, “We came to your brother Esau, and he is coming to meet you, and four hundred men with him.” 7 Then Jacob was greatly afraid and distressed; . . .
. . . 23 He took them and sent them across the stream, and likewise everything that he had. 24 And Jacob was left alone; and a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day. 25 When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and Jacob’s thigh was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. 26 Then he said, “Let me go, for the day is breaking.” But Jacob said, “I will not let you go, unless you bless me.” 27 And he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” 28 Then he said, “Your name shall no more be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.” 29 Then Jacob asked him, “Tell me, I pray, your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him. 30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life is preserved.”

The point is, the Communion of Saints are not the dead but the living. God “is not the God of the dead, but of the living” as Jesus states.

MATTHEW 22:30-32 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

Remember there is a bodily death and a spiritual death. The prohibition concerns having no dealings with the spiritually dead spirits (either fallen angels or divining up people who have passed away, etc.).

I think it was Dave Armstrong who also points out that St. Peter talks to a person who is spiritually alive but physically dead in Acts 9. Was this idolatry and spiritism? No!

ACTS 9:36-41 36 Now there was at Joppa a disciple named Tabitha, which means Dorcas. She was full of good works and acts of charity. 37 In those days she fell sick and died; and when they had washed her, they laid her in an upper room. 38 Since Lydda was near Joppa, the disciples, hearing that Peter was there, sent two men to him entreating him, “Please come to us without delay.” 39 So Peter rose and went with them. And when he had come, they took him to the upper room. All the widows stood beside him weeping, and showing tunics and other garments which Dorcas made while she was with them. 40 But Peter put them all outside and knelt down and prayed; **then turning to the body he said, “Tabitha, rise.” **And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up. 41 And he gave her his hand and lifted her up. Then calling the saints and widows he presented her alive

I as a Catholic would affirm we “shouldn’t pray to the dead”. We shouldn’t ask their blessings either. But praying to (not worshipping them but asking their intercessory help) the ALIVE Saints (NOT dead) who we are in Communion with isn’t doing either.

Ask your friends if they ask for their guardian Angel for help. I hope so. Why would God give us a guardian Angel if the Angel isn’t suppose to help us. Is that praying to the dead too? No!

 

[tonyrey]

Not to pray to the saints implies that they are powerless, useless and have no further part to play in the struggle against evil!

 

[promethius]

More than once I’ve heard from Protestants that they don’t it when we pray to saints. Some are more polite than others, but the end result is that they say that we shouldn’t pray to the dead.

Are the Saints dead? I certainly hope not! If there is no eternal life, then that makes God a liar and unworthy of worship. If we believe that there is eternal life as God has promised, how DARE we call His Saints “dead”?

Some even take it as far as comparing prayers to saints and angels to seances and such by the Pagans.

Then Christ Himself sinned by holding a seance with Elijah and Moses (who remarkably didn’t sound very dead in the Bible). But since Christ is without sin, and we are to strive to be Christ-like since He is our perfect example in ***everything ***He did… then perhaps we CAN pray to the Saints just as Christ demonstrated when He deliberately took His apostles with Him to the mount of transfiguration…

What does one say to that?

Exactly as above: either we recognize that the Saints are alive and that by Christ’s own example can be prayed to, or we call God a liar and sinner and we abandon worship of Him. Since I’m not quite ready to think that God is a liar and a sinner, I think I’ll go with the fact that Christ’s example was both true and good.

 

[kenofken]

More than once I’ve heard from Protestants that they don’t it when we pray to saints. Some are more polite than others, but the end result is that they say that we shouldn’t pray to the dead. Some even take it as far as comparing prayers to saints and angels to seances and such by the Pagans.

Now, I know the response to accusations of worshipping Mary, that’s simply a myth. We don’t worship Mary, we ask her to pray for us. But still, some people even after knowing this still have issues with communicated with those who’ve passed, be they Mary, a different saint, or an angel, etc.

What does one say to that?

Are your prayers to Mary timed around phases of the moon or the seasons? Are they carried out in circles or outdoor groves? Do you follow your prayers by abysmal drum circles that play until dawn? Do you have a excess of very attractive women in sun dresses who don’t believe in shaving? If the answer is “no” you ain’t pagan!

 

[fons_vitae]

very attractive women… pagan!

Really? Well, everyone has their own tastes…

 

[kbwall]

OK, this makes sense. But what about the frowned upon occult practices that involve communicating with the dead/those who’ve passed on?

I mean, the saints are alive in heaven, but clearly their physical, biological bodies have died. And if we count the saints as alive, because they are in the afterlife, then wouldn’t others in the afterlife also be considered alive? If so, what is wrong with occult practices of speaking to beings in the spirit world?

I am not trying to discredit prayers to saints or to angels. Nor am I trying to persuade anybody into the occult. I’m just not understanding the distinction between praying to a saint/angel and occult/Pagan communing with spirits.

 

[promethius]

I mean, the saints are alive in heaven, but clearly their physical, biological bodies have died. And if we count the saints as alive, because they are in the afterlife, then wouldn’t others in the afterlife also be considered alive?

No. those who are in heaven are assuredly capable of hearing our prayers. Those who are in purgation are alive, but we don’t know if they are capable of hearing or interceding for us. Those who are in hell are spiritually dead.

If so, what is wrong with occult practices of speaking to beings in the spirit world?

Illicit means of contacting the dead (eg, summoning) to accomplish illicit ends (aka, taking on power, gaining supernatural knowledge, etc).

I am not trying to discredit prayers to saints or to angels. Nor am I trying to persuade anybody into the occult. I’m just not understanding the distinction between praying to a saint/angel and occult/Pagan communing with spirits.

Prayer is a licit means to ask the saints for a licit end, their intercession. The occult uses illicit means to ask the “dead” for illcit ends, such as power, knowledge, etc.

 

[danserr]

OK, this makes sense. But what about the frowned upon occult practices that involve communicating with the dead/those who’ve passed on?

I mean, the saints are alive in heaven, but clearly their physical, biological bodies have died. And if we count the saints as alive, because they are in the afterlife, then wouldn’t others in the afterlife also be considered alive? If so, what is wrong with occult practices of speaking to beings in the spirit world?

I am not trying to discredit prayers to saints or to angels. Nor am I trying to persuade anybody into the occult. I’m just not understanding the distinction between praying to a saint/angel and occult/Pagan communing with spirits.

Well occult practices typically try to compel spirits to appear and control them for information or to do something for the one who tries to summon them. The distinction between magic and prayer is very important. Magic tries to compel or control the supernatural. The summoner will not necessarily be trying to summon a good spirit, but believes he is commanding them. But spirits cannot be compelled or commanded by humans, so there is the danger of a demon pretending to be obedient for the sake of harming the summoner. And even with those who do something more akin to a seance, trying to summon up the spirits of the dead to talk to, the same principles applies. This is still magic, trying to compel the supernatural.

Prayer on the other hand is not magic, it does not try to compel the supernatural. Prayer, by definition means to beseech or even beg (I think). So magic tries to compel, prayer requests, the attitude is entirely different. We don’t try to compel the saints to perform miracles for us, we ask them on our behalf to pray God for us, while knowing the thing for which we ask may not be good for us to have and may be refused us. Finally, we know that when such prayers are answered, the effect was done by God, not the power of the saint.

So there is a difference between a pagan trying to summon a spirit by his own power, and compel the spirit to perform something for him by the spirit’s own power, and the Christian prayer that a saint may intercede for him and ask God to grant him something, knowing that it is ultimately God, to whom he prays and who answers the prayer (though the answer may be either “yes” or “no.” The pagan communing with spirits ends with the spirit, the Christian prayer end with God.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

All the Protestants that I know are in the habit of praying for each other. Even those who are far from saintly might prayer for others who are far from saintly. So when a Protestant says he will not ask the saints in heaven to pray for him, I have to wonder why. Aren’t the prayers of the saints maybe worth even more than the prayers of the sinners?