What should a Catholic church look like?

[andrewstx]

Your statement is being “contested” because you ignore direction from the Church that others have discussed.

You’re also wrong about “the focus.” The focus is not Jesus Christ but what He did for all of us – namely offer Himself to His Father for our sins. “The (primary) focus” in any Catholic Church is the miracle that takes place atop the altar of sacrifice. As foreign as this might sound to you we are required to attend Mass so that we are present at this miracle and not to receive Holy Communion. We attend so that we can be saturated by the salvific grace that flows that this miracle.

Ultimately THREE things determine the location of a tabernacle. #1) Safety of the Blessed Sacrament. That trumps ALL. #2) Ensuring a reverent atmosphere at all times. #3) Providing a venue where His Faithful may adore him. You don’t seem to care about any of these. You simply demand a specific location no matter what and that’s wrong.

To be honest I prefer the tabernacle located in the rear center of the sanctuary even with all the potential problems for most churches. I don’t feel this way about places like St. Pat’s in NYC or the Crystal Cathedral though. Unless you are going to close the places to visitors and tourists the Blessed Sacrament deserves better.

I also recognize that people with your attitude are probably the single biggest reason more tabernacles are not relocated back to the rear center of more sanctuaries.

I agree. Tho I have no documents to support me, I feel the people’s attention during Mass should be on the altar where the holy sacrifice is being offered at the time. You don’t need a huge church with a distant tabernacle for that.

Private adoration to the Blessed Sacrament to me should be in a quiet, secluded place where you can have a qiuet time for privacy with Our Lord.

 

[Aramis]

NB: Please keep in mind that I am playing the devil’s advocate in this post and I do not actually subscribe to the following line of thought, for I am doing this for the sake of learning more about the beauty of the Church. The questions are four-fold.

1.In the context of the liturgy, why must the aesthetics of a given Catholic church (i.e. architecture, artwork, altar, tabernacle location, etc.), look a certain way?

1. If it must look a certain way, what standards should one follow in building a Catholic church?
2. Furthermore, can’t we just as easily worship Jesus Christ on the altar in something like the Crystal Cathedral as one could in a gothic or romanesque church?
3. After all, isn’t the overall focus supposed to be centered on what happens between those assisting at Mass and God who is made present in sacrament of the Eucharist?

Thank you!

There must be an altar table, and a defined sanctuary; visible from the Altar must be a crucifix (either 3D or iconographic). A tabernacle should be either on the altar table, on another altar in the sanctuary, or in a separate chapel nearby.

That’s about the ONLY real constants.

Remember: The Catholic Church is actually 23 distinct churches united with/under/to the pope, and while the Roman is the largest, it’s not the only one. Each has its own rubrics for what is normal. And they vary.

Byzantine Catholic (Ruthenian, Ukrainian, Russian, Romanian) parishes SHOULD have the icons of Christ Pantocrator and Mary the Theotokos, and usually also have St. John the Forerunner.

Syrian Catholic ones should have a curtain.

Armenian Catholic ones should have the liturgical rugs called for in their rubrics.

 

[adstrinity]

Hmmmmm, I do not know how to make myself any more clear. Let me try this again:

THE TABERNACLE NEEDS TO BE FRONT AND CENTER, JESUS NEEDS TO BE IN PLAIN VIEW FOR EVERYBODY TO SEE.

---

There, I hope that cleared up any confusion.

If you do not want to see Jesus, go to a Protestant service.

 

[Aramis]

Hmmmmm, I do not know how to make myself any more clear. Let me try this again:

THE TABERNACLE NEEDS TO BE FRONT AND CENTER, JESUS NEEDS TO BE IN PLAIN VIEW FOR EVERYBODY TO SEE.

---

There, I hope that cleared up any confusion.

If you do not want to see Jesus, go to a Protestant service.

Except your expressed point of view is ignorant of the law, and disrespectful of the Byzantine and Coptic Rites.

You will NOT normally see the tabernacle in a Byzantine or Coptic Rite parish - except during the liturgies or during bright week (the week following easter). Because it is hidden behind the iconostas (icon screen).

Likewise, it’s perfectly permissible under Roman tradition and current rubrics (since before Trent, even) for Cathedrals and monastic chapels to have a separate chapel of reservation nearby. Likewise, as long as it’s in the sanctuary and prominent, it has never been required to be on the altar of celebration for the Roman Rite.

 

[adstrinity]

Except your expressed point of view is ignorant of the law, and disrespectful of the Byzantine and Coptic Rites.

You will NOT normally see the tabernacle in a Byzantine or Coptic Rite parish - except during the liturgies or during bright week (the week following easter). Because it is hidden behind the iconostas (icon screen).

Likewise, it’s perfectly permissible under Roman tradition and current rubrics (since before Trent, even) for Cathedrals and monastic chapels to have a separate chapel of reservation nearby. Likewise, as long as it’s in the sanctuary and prominent, it has never been required to be on the altar of celebration for the Roman Rite.

The question was, “What should a Catholic church look like?” I answered what a CATHOLIC CHURCH, Latin Rite, as attended by the masses SHOULD LOOK LIKE. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT monastaries, convents, cathedrals, or basillicas, as that was not the question. I am not speaking for the other 22 Rites as I do not belong to any of those. I am talking about a regular Latin Rite Catholic church that the majority of Catholics who are vastly ignorant and self-centered members of Christ’s body attend regularly.

And, once again, to put this into perspective, because it is needed: The Tabernacle needs to be at the front and center of the Church. It needs to be on the altar (which should be attached to the wall, (again, Latin Rite, regular church), and it needs to be the focus. The Tabernacle needs to be where the uneducated masses who do not proclaim the Body and Blood of Our Lord can focus on it and re-learn their faith.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Unusual Churches around the Globe

http://goo.gl/Qax4W

 

[Aeolian]

Hmmmmm, I do not know how to make myself any more clear. Let me try this again:

THE TABERNACLE NEEDS TO BE FRONT AND CENTER, JESUS NEEDS TO BE IN PLAIN VIEW FOR EVERYBODY TO SEE.

There, I hope that cleared up any confusion.

If you do not want to see Jesus, go to a Protestant service.

You’re just underscoring the fact that you follow your personal preferences that not what the Church directs. Jesus Christ deserves better. That’s why people like you are not taken seriously. I hope one day that you will realize that.

 

[Aeolian]

The question was, “What should a Catholic church look like?” I answered what a CATHOLIC CHURCH, Latin Rite, as attended by the masses SHOULD LOOK LIKE. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT monastaries, convents, cathedrals, or basillicas, as that was not the question. I am not speaking for the other 22 Rites as I do not belong to any of those. I am talking about a regular Latin Rite Catholic church that the majority of Catholics who are vastly ignorant and self-centered members of Christ’s body attend regularly.

And, once again, to put this into perspective, because it is needed: The Tabernacle needs to be at the front and center of the Church. It needs to be on the altar (which should be attached to the wall, (again, Latin Rite, regular church), and it needs to be the focus. The Tabernacle needs to be where the uneducated masses who do not proclaim the Body and Blood of Our Lord can focus on it and re-learn their faith.

You are posting what you believe a Catholic church should look like. A personal opinion, nothing more.

FWIW, there are not “22 Rites” in the Catholic Church. You are displaying some ignorance of your own there…

 

[Aeolian]

Except your expressed point of view is ignorant of the law, and disrespectful of the Byzantine and Coptic Rites.

You will NOT normally see the tabernacle in a Byzantine or Coptic Rite parish - except during the liturgies or during bright week (the week following easter). Because it is hidden behind the iconostas (icon screen).

Likewise, it’s perfectly permissible under Roman tradition and current rubrics (since before Trent, even) for Cathedrals and monastic chapels to have a separate chapel of reservation nearby. Likewise, as long as it’s in the sanctuary and prominent, it has never been required to be on the altar of celebration for the Roman Rite.

That’s not true. The tabernacle in a Byzantine Catholic parish is typically located on the altar and is rather ornate although it usually has very little physical capacity.

 

[adstrinity]

Aeolian, I am saying what is true. I have explained myself. For what it’s worth, I have never said there are 22 Rites, I said, “the other 22 Rites.” Pray.

 

[SMHW]

Aeolian, I am saying what is true. I have explained myself. For what it’s worth, I have never said there are 22 Rites, I said, “the other 22 Rites.” Pray.

…the number wasn’t the problem…

 

[adstrinity]

…the number wasn’t the problem…

? Go on…

 

[Aeolian]

Aeolian, I am saying what is true. I have explained myself. For what it’s worth, I have never said there are 22 Rites, I said, “the other 22 Rites.” Pray.

There are not 22 (or 23) “rites” in the Catholic Church. You are mistaken.

 

[adstrinity]

There are not 22 (or 23) “rites” in the Catholic Church. You are mistaken.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm

How so?

 

[Aramis]

That’s not true. The tabernacle in a Byzantine Catholic parish is typically located on the altar and is rather ornate although it usually has very little physical capacity.

You won’t SEE it, however, unless it’s

1. A Ruthenian or Ukrainian parish with less than opaque iconostas (you can see through the iconostas, or at least the doors, in many Ruthenian parishes and some UGCC ones)
2. During liturgy (as the doors are then open)
3. highly latinized (lacking an iconostas)
4. has an incomplete iconostas (like many missions and a couple Ruthenian parishes) sans doors.

 

[Aramis]

? Go on…

The 23 Churches in the Catholic Communion fall into 6 rites:
Roman Rite - Roman Church and Ethiopian Church
Byzantine Rite - 10 churches, including Ruthenian, Romanian, Russian, Ukrainian, Greek, Melkite, Slovak, Byelorussian.
West Syrian Rite: Syrian and Maronite Churches, one of the Indian Churches
East Syrian aka Chaldean Rite: Chaldean, one of the Indian Churches
Armenian Rite - Armenian Church
Alexandrian Rite - Coptic and Ethiopian Church.

 

[adstrinity]

The 23 Churches in the Catholic Communion fall into 6 rites:
Roman Rite - Roman Church and Ethiopian Church
Byzantine Rite - 10 churches, including Ruthenian, Romanian, Russian, Ukrainian, Greek, Melkite, Slovak, Byelorussian.
West Syrian Rite: Syrian and Maronite Churches, one of the Indian Churches
East Syrian aka Chaldean Rite: Chaldean, one of the Indian Churches
Armenian Rite - Armenian Church
Alexandrian Rite - Coptic and Ethiopian Church.

So then it WAS the number that was the problem.

Well, I’m not speaking for any of them but the Latin Rite.

 

[SMHW]

So then it WAS the number that was the problem.

Maybe. 23 is correct if you are speaking about the number of (sui juris) Catholic Churches but it would be incorrect if you are speaking about the number of Catholic rites.

Well, I’m not speaking for any of them but the Latin Rite.

Fine. But it helps if you make a point of saying so since this forum addresses the liturgical concerns of all Catholic Churches and rites.

 

[GwenL]

On this subject - for anyone who has been to St Peter’s Basilica, where is the tabernacle there?

Based on the interactive floor plan (saintpetersbasilica.org/floorplan.htm) it looks like it is in #72, the Blessed Sacrament Chapel (tabernacle by Bernini), behind a Baroque wrought-iron grill.

Is there another one (a secondary tabernacle???) front-and-center? I haven’t been there personally so I don’t know for sure. But I think I’ve heard otherwise, that the tabernacle is in the side chapel there. So if St. Peter’s places the tabernacle in a beautiful side chapel, how can it be that first and foremost that the tabernacle NEEDS to be front and center?

I think that there is more than one tabernacle at St Peter’s.

I know for sure that there is a tabernacle in the Blessed Sacrament chapel, which is to the right of the main nave. We went to Benediction twice, and both times the priest reposed the Blessed Sacrament in a tabernacle above the altar. There was a sanctuary lamp.

We went to Mass (the 5 p.m. weekday is in Latin) at the Altar of St Peter’s Chair, which is on the other side of the main altar, and under the chair of St Peter. I’m pretty sure that I saw the priest go to a tabernacle to retrieve and repose the Blessed Sacrament before and after Holy Communion, but the back wall is perhaps 100 feet or more behind the altar.

We also went to a daily Mass at the chapel on the end of the left transept, and I believe that it also had a tabernacle.

 

[Aeolian]

ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm

How so?

Did you understand what you posted a link to? There are six or seven rites of the Catholic Church depending on how you count. You need to distinguish between an actual RITE (such as the ROMAN or BYZANTINE Rite) and a tradition/church (small “c.”)

The most obvious example is the Byzantine RITE. There are 14 different recensions within the Byzantine Rite. Those different recensions are not “rites” but “churches” or “traditions.” I attend for example a Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic parish. Church = Catholic, rite = Byzantine, church/tradition = Ruthenian.