What should be done about all these abuses?

[Ray_Marshall]

A lot of time on these forums is spent discussing all the liturgical abuses so prevalent in the Church today. And the Bishops rarely seem to do anything about them. People write Rome to get some action. And still, nothing happens.

Well, as a “revert” who spent twenty five years away from the Church, I would like to see some discussion from the point of view of all the reverts on these forums.

While I was away, I dabbled in meditation, yoga, centering prayer, I did “est”, I became infatuated with “pyramidology” and ufo’s, I attended a few protestant churches to see what they were like and I usually slept in on Sundays, except when I was a regular attender at the infamous (by orthodox standards) St. Joan of Arc church here in Minneapolis.

But I came back, through the grace of God. And I think most of the reverts will agree with me that God’s grace is constantly pulling on us to come back.

The bishops know that this is a pattern that has been with the Church from time immemorial. St. Paul was constantly chastising his converts for their behavior after he had left them. Many of our greatest saints earned their halos by straightening out the mess in which their cultures were mired.

St. Catherine of Sienna earned her halo by straightening out her Carmelite order.

If you did a census of all the attenders at St. Joan’s, and at similar parishes around the country, you will find that a lot of these people are on the younger side of 50 and they are still, like I was, going through their “rebellion.” I believe that many of them will come back, will “revert” to their faith.

But, if the Bishops (many of whom themselves aren’t very orthodox) would start cracking the whip, you would see the formation of new “liberal Catholic” sects faster than you could say “Cardinal Ratzinger.”

God calls all the people, the atheists, the Hindus, the Moslems, the animists, the protestants, the Mormons, the Orthodox, the Catholics, and yes, even the liberal pro-life and gay Catholics to be with Him.

Some won’t come back. And God will judge them, like he will judge me and you.

I suggest that rather than constantly harp on these liturgical abuses, let us pray lot, and if the opportunity presents itself, point out gently to the individuals involved that that procedure is not the way that it is expected to be done.

If you just tell them that they are wrong and that they will be going to Hell, they will tell you that you are wrong and you’ll get nowhere.

And pray a lot. And if it is happening in your parish, pray some more, and “offer it up”.

There’s more than one way to win a halo.

 

[MrS]

Welcome Home!

I too was away for 25 years. I think I can relate to your joy.

I recommend a book called TimeBombs of Vatican II by Michael Davies. When you ask what you can do, I can first recommend that we all study and learn what really happened…while we were “sleeping”.

These “innovations” all first started as abuses. After a time they were referred to as the “norm”, and the weak bishops implemented them as acceptable changes in the liturgy. I refer to Extrordinary Ministers, Lay Lectors and readers, girl altar boys, no communion rails etc, etc, etc.

Again, welcome home.

Mr Shttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

 

[deogratias]

And pray a lot. And if it is happening in your parish, pray some more, and “offer it up”.

By all means do this but that is not all one can do. Redemptionis Sacramentum says that we should

**

6. Complaints Regarding Abuses in Liturgical Matters

**

[183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected.** This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favouritism.**

[184.] Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.[290] It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity

 

[faithfulservant]

dg, the problem continues when , after you have done what you are suppose to do by lodging the complaint (going by the normal chain of command of course), and still nothing happens… the abuses continue…no matter how many complaints are brought forth …

why is rome not taking a stronger stand concerning bishops who do nothing to resolve liturgical abuse problems in their diocese

 

[St3746]

Who are you supposed to talk to, and in what order?

I understand that the best thing to do would be to talk to the priest by yourself, then with a witness, then talk to the bishop. If that doesn’t work, complain to the St. Joseph Foundation.

But what are people with a streak of cowardice, like me, supposed to do? I find it agonizing to even think about confronting a priest, yet I know it wouldn’t be fair to go above his head from the begining.

In the meantime, I will pray, I guess.

St3746, who had to endure not having kneelers, bad music, an altered consecration prayer, and a nun homilist… :banghead:

 

[deogratias]

It would be polite to talk to the pastor but according to RS it should be brought to the attention of the Bishop because it is his responsibility and failing to get satisfaction there, one has the right to report it to the Holy See according to RS again.

I would recommend you read the entire document and also you might wish to find out if there is a procedure in place at your particular Diocese to lodge a complaint.

Remember it must be a valid abuse (like self-communicating or not saying the correct words at consecration) and not just something that irritates you like people holding hands or applauding.

 

[Marines]

Bishops are rarely turned to when a liturgical abuse occurs because, often times, they seldom do anything about it.

• Joe

 

[Deacon_Tony560]

It hurts to see folks say that bishops rarely do anything about abuses. This is too general. Just as everyone on this forum is different, so is each bishop. Many “Abuses” that I have seen mentioned are changes in tradition (Small “t”.) The Church, by virtue of the teaching power that it receives with Christ as the head and we as the body of Christ, has the right to modernize teachings. These teachings can’t go against the basic truths or Dogma of the Church. There is, however, a lot of room given to the bishop, the successor of the apostles. Let me give you an example. If a new teaching had not been given, we would be confessing our sins out loud to the entire community. (Might not be a bad idea to bring that back-Just kidding)

May God bless you,
Deacon Tony SFO

 

[Dawn_VanName]

I think that individual complaints do not get very far, but if it were by a majority, say in a petition format, then the bishops would be forced to respond. After all, this was what American Life Leaque did with pro-abortion Catholics receiving holy communion. The petitions went on for nearly a year before the bishops were forced to respond to the concern. This petition even made the evening news! It seems a list would have to be drawn up. So, if anyone is for this, how should we get started?
Dawn

 

[Iohannes]

Liturgical abuse will not stop until there is excommunications, left and right. Anyone remember Inaestimabile Donum? How come that was not enforce rigorously? If that was not inforced rigoriously, how can we except RS to be inforced rigorously?

What we can do is PRAY and PRAY can keep up the pressure until they do something.

 

[deogratias]

I think that individual complaints do not get very far, but if it were by a majority, say in a petition format, then the bishops would be forced to respond. After all, this was what American Life Leaque did with pro-abortion Catholics receiving holy communion. The petitions went on for nearly a year before the bishops were forced to respond to the concern. This petition even made the evening news! It seems a list would have to be drawn up. So, if anyone is for this, how should we get started?
Dawn

Not necessarily true. For several years I witnessed a practice in my parish which I knew was disrespectful and unlawful regarding the Holy Eucharist. I wrote to the Pastor, no response. I wrote to the liturgist who admitted to the practice, told me it was with the approval of the pastor and to mind my own business.

I then sent a copy of that letter and a question as to if there was a way to file a formal complaint to the Bishop’s office with a copy to the Diocesean Office of Worship (liturgy). I received a reply almost immediately on how to file a formal complaint about the problem. I also later received a reply from the office of worship confirming this was liturgical abuse.

I followed the procedure the Bishop’s office had given me, which included the complaint, how often witnessed, what I had done before and any action I had previously attempted plus I included the self-condemning letter from the liturgist of the Parish. I also had to give my permission for them to share all this with the Pastor.

Again almost immediately I received a reply that the Pastor would be asked to make a formal response to this and that he would be advised that there were other ways to handle this situation than the practice.

I did not attend that Mass for several months since I had started going to the Tridentine Mass now offered in our Diocese. But when I did, I saw the practice had been discontinued.

So one person can make a difference. But again I say be sure you have your ducks in a row, don’t send in a laundry list of complaints, pick the most serious abuse and be sure it is an abuse and not just a preference. Document how often you see this practice and who is involved, etc. etc. Be charitable and assure your Bishop your main concern is for that of the Holy Eucharist and respect for Our Lord …you may be surprised that one person can make a difference.

 

[deogratias]

Iohannes:

Liturgical abuse will not stop until there is excommunications, left and right. Anyone remember Inaestimabile Donum? How come that was not enforce rigorously? If that was not inforced rigoriously, how can we except RS to be inforced rigorously?

What we can do is PRAY and PRAY can keep up the pressure until they do something.

I agree with the power of prayer and exercise a little more faith than you evidence here Johannes - I trust the Holy Father knows better than you and that if he thought left and right excommunications would solve the problem, then he would have done so.

 

[Iohannes]

deogratias:

I agree with the power of prayer and exercise a little more faith than you evidence here Johannes - I trust the Holy Father knows better than you and that if he thought left and right excommunications would solve the problem, then he would have done so.

I certainly hope you trust the Holy Father more then me, but not punishing people who error is still not a good thing and even worse is to promote them to the College of Cardinals(example: Cardinal Kasper).

If they are not going to enforce the documents, what is the point of putting them out in the first place?

 

[deogratias]

I can agree that sometimes it is hard to understand how certain people became Bishops and then Cardinals - but I have also found that sometimes the lessons we most need to learn in life are not as obvious as others. Sometimes the best teachings I have had in my life came through trouble and bad times rather than good times.

So I try to trust in God’s plan and that there must be some reason for all that happens even if I can’t see it immediately.

I think back through my life and each thing has a sequence. By that I mean if A had not happened then B would not have happened and then maybe C - and C may be the best thing that ever happened for me but there may have been no way it would have happened any other way than going through the not so happy A or B.

It is just like spiritual darkness - sometimes we bring that on ourselves by our disbelief or our rebellion against God’s teachings but sometimes I believe God gives it to us also because there is something we need to learn from that too.

I know you are hurting and disappointed at losing your TLM and what there is for you to learn from that is between you and God but probably it is not that you should become bitter and angry about it but something else that you will find in prayer.

I don’t know your circumstances or age or anything about you, but I wonder if you have ever considered a retreat at one of theFFSP offered places or to Clear Creek in Oklahoma - sometimes that is very healing.

God go with you Johannes.

 

[Chris-WA]

I think the best thing we can do is simply not to tolerate the abuses. In many cases it can be just a simple lack of knowledge. By liturgical law, we have the right to a proper Mass. We cannot tolerate abuses, even if they have become the norm. Keep making noise about it until somebody listens. Start with the liturgical committee (get on it if you can), then the priest, then bishop, then Rome if necessary. Then at least you can say you’ve done everything you can. If that fails, maybe start going to another parish where liturgical law is properly followed. Sitting back and taking it, however, can’t be the right answer.