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SeraficLeo
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Mr. Obama was criticized for the same thing and Mrs. Clinton was just fine with selling nuclear materials to Putin.
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edwest211
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Way off topic. Please stop.
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Thorolfr
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Thorolfr:
Mr. Obama was criticized for the same thing and Mrs. Clinton was just fine with selling nuclear materials to Putin.
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niceatheist
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And yet I would say the activities of HUAC and McCarthy were blatant attempts to persecute members of the Communist Party, irrespective of whether any of individual Communist Party member was in fact implicated in any disloyal activities.
I would have no general objection to the FBI having moles in Communist organizations, any more than one could object to them having moles in the KKK. But both groups, providing they violate no laws, have a right to exist, and not be molested by the state merely because of membership, but the state still has an interest in monitoring them since some members may represent a threat to the public good.
What McCarthy was after was the demonization of people, and the outright harassment of people. The persecution of people like Pete Seeger and the Hollywood Ten didn’t make America safer, and make a mockery of the Bill of Rights along the way.
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SeraficLeo
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edwest211
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When the Soviet Union still existed, and had a bad harvest, the US sold them grain. Under President Nixon, the US bought coal which was shipped in from Poland. Right after World War II, the US had a Restricted Technology List. Our remaining Allies could not sell certain technology to the Russians without checking with the US first. Stalin learned that the British had a jet engine called the Nene. He was impressed and was considering getting his agents to go in and steal or photograph the plans. But he didn’t have to worry. The British were looking for cash. After the V-1 and V-2 attacks, one million homes and other structures, had been damaged or destroyed. Rebuilding required lots of wood. That wood was bought from Russia. Back to the engine. The British sold a complete engine to the Russians. They then took it apart and copied it. That engine fit nicely in the MiG- 15 airframe.
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CoffeeFanatic
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I’m aware of McCarthy and what he did. Yes, the man was an early version of a doxxer and I am strongly against such antics. However, it’s kind of hard for me to get overly emotional about a dead man who, while not a stellar example of righteousness, pales in comparison to the antics of those we were in a Cold War against. Personally, I think he probably had a higher moral ground to stand on than a lot of modern folks who are into doxxing.
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niceatheist
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Accusing people of essentially being traitors, without evidence, because of affiliation with a political party, is not any kind of moral ground I’d like to sit on.
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CoffeeFanatic
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Eh, save that kind of outrage for the living.
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edwest211
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Really? US citizens joined sky watch groups sanctioned by the US Government to scan the skies for Soviet bombers during the Cold War in the 1950s. The concern was that they would sneak in below the radar somewhere and destroy targets in the US. Fighters squadrons were ready to scramble should a report come in. People in sky watch were given a number to call to describe what they saw. There were false alarms but if there were good sightings, the jets went up. There was a system in place that included ground and airborne radar, radar on naval picket ships in the Pacific and Atlantic, and radar in Canada, and they had their own sky watch groups which included the Yukon Territory.
In 1950, a book designed to inform the average American, was released. Titled How to Survive an Atomic Bomb, it was written by Richard Gerstell, Consultant, Civil Defense Office. Most people did not know there was a Civil Defense Office until it was mentioned in newspapers, magazines or books from the time. The author tells readers that the first draft was prepared in 1948, contradicting later reports that the US was predicting the first Soviet atomic test would not occur until 1952.
People today can look back at what some call the McCarthy era and laugh at it. The first duty of any government is to protect its citizens from attack. National survival was at stake.
Blanket statements like “make a mockery” are not applicable. The US government should never be excused for any illegal activity both then and now. On the other hand, there were people who would do anything, meaning anything, to damage or hinder national defense. If anyone was caught in a dragnet that didn’t belong, one has to consider the time period. Contrary to other reports, the US and Soviet Union were both on a war footing and things only kept escalating as new technology appeared. No chances could be taken. It was not enough to keep up with Soviet technology, we had to be far ahead as much as possible. The Soviet Union felt vulnerable for good reason. The US had atomic bombs, and the production of more atomic bombs in the USSR is still a classified subject.
One more detail. The first Russian bombers were not Russian aircraft. They were copies derived from three interned B-29s. The US knew that.
In 1950, a book designed to inform the average American, was released. Titled How to Survive an Atomic Bomb, it was written by Richard Gerstell, Consultant, Civil Defense Office. Most people did not know there was a Civil Defense Office until it was mentioned in newspapers, magazines or books from the time. The author tells readers that the first draft was prepared in 1948, contradicting later reports that the US was predicting the first Soviet atomic test would not occur until 1952.
People today can look back at what some call the McCarthy era and laugh at it. The first duty of any government is to protect its citizens from attack. National survival was at stake.
Blanket statements like “make a mockery” are not applicable. The US government should never be excused for any illegal activity both then and now. On the other hand, there were people who would do anything, meaning anything, to damage or hinder national defense. If anyone was caught in a dragnet that didn’t belong, one has to consider the time period. Contrary to other reports, the US and Soviet Union were both on a war footing and things only kept escalating as new technology appeared. No chances could be taken. It was not enough to keep up with Soviet technology, we had to be far ahead as much as possible. The Soviet Union felt vulnerable for good reason. The US had atomic bombs, and the production of more atomic bombs in the USSR is still a classified subject.
One more detail. The first Russian bombers were not Russian aircraft. They were copies derived from three interned B-29s. The US knew that.
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niceatheist
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That there were disloyal Americans is not in question. I question whether the Americans who were actively working against the United States were Communist Party members. Doubtless a few, but the real threats to US and Western security were the people who didn’t walk around with Communist Party membership cards in their wallet.
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edwest211
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You’ll have to provide references for that.
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niceatheist
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Actual moles like Harry Dexter White weren’t members of the Communist Party. Others like the Rosenbergs were. The highest level traitors on both sides of the Iron Curtain didn’t advertise their political affiliations, though review of the records of people like Kim Philby certainly revealed sympathies (I suppose 50/50 hindsight is always easy).
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edwest211
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Kim Philby? He was a dedicated spy who betrayed England. He defected to the Soviet Union in 1963.
If you support Communism, that’s up to you. But national survival was at stake. Enemy number one wanted to know our, and our Allies’ secrets. There was no room for hindsight. The US needed good intelligence at the time, as did the Soviets.
I will not defend the US government for wrongdoing. I will also make sure that the record of Communist activities in the United States in support of Soviet aims is mentioned.
If you support Communism, that’s up to you. But national survival was at stake. Enemy number one wanted to know our, and our Allies’ secrets. There was no room for hindsight. The US needed good intelligence at the time, as did the Soviets.
I will not defend the US government for wrongdoing. I will also make sure that the record of Communist activities in the United States in support of Soviet aims is mentioned.
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SeraficLeo
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Unfortunately the wiki article on the HUAC is basically worthless. It does not describe the procedures (if any - again the Wiki article tells us nothing) for who was summoned to answer charges and on what basis (i.e. evidence) charges or allegations were considered.
The article does, however, say that Senator McCarthy had nothing whatsoever to do with the HUAC. Senator McCarthy worked with the Senate equivalent of the HUAC, the Government Operations Committee:
I find it telling that notwithstanding the absence of any association between Sen. McCarthy and the HUAC, the two have been interwoven and made virtually synonymous over time.
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LawyersGunsAndMoney
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This is interesting just as a historical factoid, but I don’t see how it’s at all related to the post you were responding to.
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edwest211
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You don’t? The time period is painted in a very narrow way here. McCarthy bad, Communist rights violated. That’s not history. Offering a broader picture was very necessary so that anyone reading could understand that the world was on the brink of another war for a long time. That needs to sink in.
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niceatheist
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Okay. Where in any of this did I say I support Communism? Supporting someone’s right to be a member of any political party they wish to is not the same as supporting the political party.
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edwest211
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My statement began with if. With all due respect, please calm down.Take a deep breath.
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SeraficLeo
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True, which was part of the problem and why someone would actually need to be formally investigated to be certain.
The thing with McCarthyism that I find most ironic is the constant levelling of accusations against McCarthy that he was accusing people “without evidence” or basis. Like he was picking random names from a hat. Take the following contradictory paragraph from the Wiki article about Senator McCarthy:
Is someone reading this supposed to do anything but laugh?
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