What should I do when sex isn't "unitive," but divisive?

[His_helpmeet]

Dear sister, as a nurse I have heard about this condition. Unfortunately, it affects a significant proportion of women and it can be difficult to recognize if the doctor is not aware of it.

Is there a good physiotherapist that you can go to in your area? Many women find significant relief from physiotherapy techniques that are designed to decrease tension in pelvic muscles. Some patients also have success with medication designed to treat nerve pain, such as older antidepressants and antiseizure medications. Not to sound vulgar, but lubricants (NOT K-Y jelly based as these tend to cause allergic reactions) and extra foreplay are also helpful for some women.

I will pray for you.

 

[Chii]

Hi, sorry all. As you can imagine lots of stressful talks and a spike in my migraines have been going on. I’ll probably only be able to answer a few of your thoughtful responses at a time, bit by bit. But since this one is of a different nature, I wanted to answer the one about multiple sclerosis first.

I’m sorry to tell you this, and I truly hope that this isn’t your case, but it’s still possible that you have MS - because that’s how my case was. My main complaint was persistent head pain and that’s all. They don’t consider that one of the “typical” symptoms. And my MRIs were clean. It took proooobably 8+ years until a teensy bit of plaque showed up on an MRI, but they said that migraines cause lesions too. And that IF I’d had MS for 8 years, my lesions would look much worse. But I kept insisting something didn’t add up, so a spinal tap was ordered. On a scale of 0 - 1, my O-bands were at 12! But my doctor still didn’t want to diagnose me, because my lesions were so insignificant - things didn’t match up to him.

So I made an appointment to travel to the Mayo Clinic and see their head of the MS department, Dr. Elizabeth Shuster. She is a very gentle and kind woman. She told me that whether I had MS was not in doubt. In her years of practice she’s noticed there’s 2 kinds of MS. The first and most common is people who get lesions first, and the symptoms follow. The second are people like me, who get symptoms first, then their lesions follow. She doesn’t know what the difference is between these two groups.

I don’t have optic neuritis even now, and my other symptoms they look for in a neuro exam are very mild (walking, squeezing their hand, feeling pin pricks, etc). I’ve been going to doctor after doctor for 10 years, so I know no one will be more helpful, nor will they declare me disabled. But my original head pain is worse all the time, and has bled down into my arms and upper torso. My hands spasm or drop things more frequently now. Sometimes a body part simply won’t do, or will resist, what I’m telling it to do. If that happens to be my legs, I’ll drop to the floor before I can fall. With my hands I have no warning, and will unexpectedly drop or toss things. I was also told I should start self-catheterizing regularly, but I have enough pain down there and I refuse unless I have no other choice.

We do plan to pursue physical therapy for the painful sex (that’s the same as a physiologist, right?). We also just bought a book which was recommended on every major interstitial cystitis website called “Ending Female Pain: A Woman’s Manual - The Ultimate Self-Help Guide for Women Suffering from Chronic Pelvic and Sexual Pain.”

For my disease modifying drug, Dr. Shuster chose copaxone because we’re open to life (it’s safer for pregnancy) and it’s less likely to cause headache. No flu symptoms either, just localized symptoms where you injected. The needle is fully hidden in the auto-injector, and they have an awesome financial assistance program… I really like it quite a lot.

I took TONS of lyrica, to no effect. But neurontin helped quite a bit. I take 1,600 mg per day. I take tegretol 200 mg 3x/day for burning and shaking. I take the tricyclic antidepressant amitriptyline 125 mg for neurological pain too. I have Lo Loestrin FE, and fioricet with codeine for migraines. A lidocaine 4% mixture for trigeminal neuralgia pain (it goes up the nose) and Lidoderm pain patches. I get occipital nerve blocks for occipital neuralgia. And lastly, oxybutinin HCL for bladder spasms. I have terrible neurological weariness or “lassitude” (It’s almost as crippling as my pain!) but I haven’t convinced my doctor to treat that yet because Ritalin is a controlled substance, and my insurance won’t pay for what he prescribed which was a narcolpesy medicine.

The best medicine is to offer it up. Not only your pain, but your frustration and helplessness and anything else that bothers you! I’m trying to get in touch with a nun with MS who wants to start an apostolate just for Catholics suffering, especially with MS. MS really is something you’d never be able to imagine what it felt like unless you also had to walk down that thorny path, because it really is unimaginable to become an old lady at 28. I hope this gave you all the information you needed. Please don’t hesitate to message me any time, for anything.
I need a break (I can’t do much at one time) but I’ll write to the rest of you soon. Thanks and God bless you for your concern!
<3

I know a bit more about it than the average bear. I was tested for it this year. I was told if I don’t have the typical "symptoms’ and absence of plaques on my MRIs, I don’t have it. I still am worried and I understand how you feel.

Not to get off topic, but how were you diagnosed? I know that there can be atypical versions of every condition, but there have to be several items to make a firm MS diagnosis:

1. OG bands in spinal fluid from an LP.
2. Lesions in the correct spots in spinal and cerebral MRIs
3. Evidence of demylination from aforementioned plaques
4. These and/or optic neuritis.

Nerve pain can be caused by so many things…that’s why I’m curious. Usually with MS, extreme nerve pain is accompanied by varying states of disability.

You seem to be able to actually get in bed, and perform with your husband (albeit it’s tremendously painful). Are you scheduled for a follow-up? What if you went to a different doctor? A physiologist can help you with movement and pain.

Have you been given any sort of medicines? Have you been able to respond to Lyrica or Neurotonin? Have you been given Copaxone or Acthar Gel?

Sorry if I come across as intrusive; I’m just trying to help in case you hadn’t seen these options before.

 

[LilyRose_8891]

Dear OP. You can say “no” for as long as it is needed. I understand that you love your husband, and if he loves you he will understand how much pain he cause you. Sex is not the only way to show love, in fact, there are many more and much more important ways to show that you love someone. Being close is one, understanding is one and thinking first about the other part is also one. If sex cause you pain it is not a sign of love from your husband. He know it, and still he hurt you. That is not love anymore, that is wrong. And you have done nothing wrong, absolutely nothing. You love your husband very much, there is no doubt about that. But does he love you as much as you love him? If you are willing to endure pain because you don’t want to hurt his feelings, why does he not love you as much and stop causing pain to you?

Sex is a “need” both men and women have, some more some less but in 99% of all cases it is there. But it is not a need that justify doing harm to anyone. Yes, in a way it is not fair that he can’t have sex with you but he did know that so it is no surprise for him.

Bottom line: you do nothing wrong if you say “no” but no matter how much you love him that is not right. You don’t need to go thru hell each time he want sex, you don’t. Sex is supposed to be a thing both enjoy, I wonder really how much he enjoy it if he know how much it hurt you. You are still in my prayers, and don’t lose faith, God will help you, He will.

I agree with Lasting Faith.

I’m really sorry for your situation. You have my empathy and my prayers. :angel1:

There is a natural need for intimacy in a marriage, and men have especial needs for sexual release on a somewhat regular basis. It is undoubtedly difficult for a man to have to abstain for long periods of time or indefinitely. This is something that needs to be acknowledged and regarded with empathy. NFP requires my husband and I to endure long periods of abstinence, and, though he prayerfully endures it without complaining, I can tell it is hard on him. So, I can understand what your husband is feeling.

That said, while it is natural to desire sex, our sex drive is not an uncontrollable urge. Through prayer the grace of God, and self-discipline, it is completely controllable (priests, nuns, and unmarried people go without sex all the time). Yes, sex is an expression of love in marriage, but it is not an absolute necessity if there is a just reason for abstinence. There are many other ways for married couples to express their love for one another. Hugs, kisses, acts of service, quality time (check out Gary Chapman’s The 5 Love Languages).

I’m sure your husband is a good man, and as I said, I understand his need for sexual intimacy. But, if sex is causing you that much pain, and your husband knows how much pain it causes you and does it anyway to meet his own desires, I do not see how this is not at least a little bit selfish on his part. It’s not an act of love on his part if he wants to do it and makes you feel like you have to do it knowing it causes you extreme amounts of pain. It would be more productive for him to work on ways to help you with your health concerns than to focus on having sex.

Wish you well.

 

[LilyRose_8891]

One more thing…

A bit of “food for thought” that may be useful for your husband -

In marriage, the husband and wife become one body. So, if you hurt your spouse, it is the same thing as hurting yourself.

 

[PeterAgain]

The idea came up of completing the act manually or otherwise, and then manually getting the sperm where it needs to go. But I don’t really know whether that’s allowed by our faith. I definitely don’t want to bend the rules or try to get around them - I love my faith very much and I want to follow her teachings!

Based on my understanding of moral theology, “manually getting the sperm where it needs to go” is not a valid option. However, it would be possible for you to prepare your husband, manually or otherwise, and then finish the act with only very shallow penetration, as long as there was some penetration and some ejaculation in the vagina.

The following quote is from “Contemperary Moral Theology Volume II: Marriage Questions” by John C.Ford, S.J. and Gerald Kelly, S.J. This book has Nihil Obstat (A preist reviewed the book for moral correctness, and it contains nothing opposed to Catholic faith or morals) and Imprimatur (A bishop gave permission for it to be printed).

"Copula dimidiata means intercourse in which there is partial (e.g. one third or one half) penetration of the vagina, with semination taking place in the vagina. It is not to be confused with copula appositiva in which semination takes place just outside the vagina, and which, therefore, does not seem to be a marriage act. Copula dimidiata fullfills the minimum essential requirements for a marriage act as set forth in a reply of the Holy Office.

Accordingly, theologians raise no moral objections to the practice if more complete penetration is impossible, painful, or harmful. Since the act is a true marriage act and the partners are doing all that can be expected of them their conduct is clearly licit.

On the other hand, their conduct would be clearly illicit if, mistakenly believing that this practice was an effective means of preventing conception, they were to use it with contraceptive intent."

There is a footnote for this paragraph. The footnote has a reference in latin, from the Holy Office responding to a question about consumation of marriage. I have studied latin, and basically the note says that the minimum requirements for consummation of marriage are at least partial penetration of the vagina and, during this penetration, at least partial semination in the vagina. However, the depth of penetration does not need to be so great that the glans (head) is fully received in the vagina.

If anyone is really interested, let me know and I’ll post the latin, and work out an exact translation.

 

[PartoftheBody]

You are in my prayers, sister!

I want to encourage you to try the pelvic physical therapy. I have a close friend who had vaginismus, which made intercourse and pelvic exams very painful. The way she described it, the pain wasn’t as bad as yours is, but she still found sex uncomfortable and screamed in pain during pap smears. I went with her once to the doctor, and I could hear the poor dear crying from my seat in the waiting room.

Anyway, she swears by pelvic physical therapy. After about 2 months, she saw dramatic improvement. She told me that the PT said sometimes they use injections (I think it was botox, I don’t quite remember) to numb the area for a few weeks as part of the treatment in very bad cases, although she didn’t have to have injections herself.

I hope it works as well for you as it did for her!

 

[Chii]

Hi everyone,
I truly apologize for being so late to respond to you. So much has been going on, especially with my health, and I’ve lost several days to migraines.

God bless you all, I was so grateful for all of your responses! I now feel like we can move forward with more certainty about which actions are licit and which aren’t, with at least some understanding about why. Especially PeterAgain’s post, thank you very much. For the benefit of anyone who might eventually read this thread and is in a similar situation, I’d like to share what broke down in our communication - especially about something so important!

Three years ago as newlyweds we read “The Good News About Sex and Marriage.” One of the things I took away from it was that sex is very much tied to a man’s ego, and to reject his advances is to reject him as a person. I never wanted to hurt my husband’s feelings, let alone reject him! But I was in profound pain. How should I proceed? I decided the best way was to let him come to the conclusion himself, that sex should be avoided, at least until we can fix this problem. (I also read that men love to fix problems! And yes… I had a very sheltered life growing up.)

So after intimacy I would always tell him in great detail what the pain was like, how intense it was, where it was, how long the pain lasted. For 3 years now. Often I’d remind him I was still in constant pain days later. I thought he wouldn’t want to hurt me either, and would someday propose a solution for us as a team - including avoiding sex. I knew I might need to be patient for him to come to this conclusion himself, but this way he wouldn’t feel rejected.

But that never happened. 3 years later I couldn’t do it anymore. But when I asked with deep hurt what he’d been thinking all this time… I was surprised to find that he was upset at ME! He felt betrayed by me! He looked terribly sad and said, “I was waiting for you to say no. Why didn’t you trust me enough to say no?” Also, because of my chronic pain he’d assumed that I must be so used to being in pain all the time, that the pain from sex didn’t bother me enough to stop him.

So strangely, after all this time we are finally on the same page. He is finally going to actively help me find a solution, and he agreed to abstain from sex as long as it takes. (My fellow newlyweds, this is how miscommunication happens! It blindsided us both, lol!!) So I hope someday this experience will help someone else searching these forums for answers like I did. <3
And I will look up the Five Love Languages book, thank you guys! The problem’s not solved, but the solution has finally started. God bless!

 

[PeterAgain]

Especially PeterAgain’s post, thank you very much.

I’m relieved that my post was helpful. I almost didn’t post becuase it seemed too much, compared to the other posts on the thread. Then, when no one posted, I worried I had killed the thread…

I have carefully learned Catholic beliefs in this area, for a personal reason. So the best I can help is by quoting books. This thread seems to be wrapping up, so this will be my last post unless it revives.

Some of the posters have said that climax outside intercourse just isn’t morally permited; while this is correct, it would be more helpful to say that intentional climax outside intercourse isn’t morally permited, though justifiable risks may be taken. This is an important distinction. To clarify for the OP, and whoever else stumbles on this thread five years from now, here is some more from Ford and Kelly (the same book I quoted previously):

Another problem that is not uncommon in the early months of marriage is that of premature ejaculation on the part of the husband. It may take some time before he learns to control the ejaculatory processes during the love-play preliminary to intercourse; and during this time, while both he and his wife are trying to do the right thing, they would not be considered to be unjustifiably risking orgasm outside of intercourse.

And a somewhat similar situation may arise during the various periods (e.g., just before and after childbirth) when physicians advise abstaining from intercourse. Durring these periods they are entitled at least to incomplete sexual acts; and these acts often have a special value and significance for their mutual love. Nevertheless, until they have learned to adjust to such situations, they may unintentionally become too strongly excited and orgasm without coitus may take place. Acording to sound principles, this is not sinful provided the orgasm is sincerely not intended or wanted, and no imprudent risk is taken.

It is not easy to define just what constitutes imprudence in these situations, because personalities and the situations themselves differ greatly. But certainly some degree of risk is permissible on these occasions; and to take that justifiable risk is not hedonistic. Perhaps a good practical rule to give married couples who bring up these problems, especially after the initial adjustments have been made, is this: when an unintended orgasm happens only occasionally, this is a fairly good sign that no imprudence is involved; but when it happens frequently in the same circumstances, this very likely indicates that a really sincere desire to avoid it is lacking, and that one is acting imprudently by not practicing greater restraint.

 

[mkwchong]

Dear OP

So sorry to hear about your challenges. Felt compelled to suggest, I have friends in the US (I am from Australia) that are very good at managing headaches and migraines. Understanding that there may be several underlying contributing factors, these guys are amazing at diagnosing and managing some forms of head pain…

Their details can be found at www.tmjtherapycentre.com

Hope that helps and our thoughts and prayers are with you always.

MC

 

[ethereality]

Sorry to hear of your situation. Was he aware of this condition when you married? Maybe he can embrace suffering with you, foregoing sex for the sake of the kingdom and your pain – maybe he can refrain from sex and live a chaste marriage with you, if you’re not able to obtain medical treatment for your nerves. I don’t quite understand why he would want to hurt you for the sake of sex, but then again, I also don’t really understand your pain, so perhaps he doesn’t, either. Often we do things not realizing their consequences, e.g. pollution of the environment, purchasing cheap goods at the expense of slave-equivalent labor, etc. – so it may be that even though you tell him that it hurts, he may not realize how much it hurts.

Or, you might “grin and bear it” and offer up your suffering with the Eucharist, and perhaps God wants to use your suffering for the salvation of souls as various saints talk about …

Perhaps if you are able to obtain sexual pleasure, such pleasure would distract you from the pain? I don’t know, but just a thought. Also, in terms of medication, I find alcohol tends to numb the ‘edge’ of pain – perhaps you could have a drink (within moderation; physicians recommend 1 beer maximum per day for women, for example) and that might help.

 

[Helenabee]

I am so sorry to hear about this. I completely understand you because I too suffer from VVS and vaginismus. It’s a horrible medical condition and it ruins the unitive part. I would like to message you privately because I also have intimacy problems like you. And this thread is so old I feel like it may not be willing to be active again.