What Should I Do?

[kotek]

Last Fall I finally decided to come back to the Catholic Church once for all after being away for 20 years (10 of those years were in a conservative “Continuing Anglican Church”, The Reformed Episcopal Church which took part in GAFCON last Summer and is now a part of the new “Anglican Church of North America” ) When I returned I still had doubts and uncertainties about some of the uniquely Catholic Dogmas. I will list them:

1. Papal Infallibility
2. Marian Dogmas
3. The whole idea of “Merit” and “Meriting Grace”

SURPRISE! I didn’t mention Purgatory, but I can see the possibility of some sort of “final Purification” before going to heaven.

I read Apologetics on those issues, I read what the church teaches (especially Trent on Justification and Merit etc.) I also read material from the opposite views. To be more specific I read “The Origins of Papal Infallibility” by Brian Tierny, “How the Pope Became Infallible” by August Bernard Hasler, “The Pope and the Council” by Johann Ignaz Von Dollinger. I read a lot of the Catechism, Catholic theology, the Bible, and Anglican and Reformed views on “Justification”.

I sought only to find the truth hoping that those doubts and uncertainties would be resolved in favour of what the Catholic Church teaches. What happened was that at this point I simply cannot accept Papal Infallibility, I disagree with Trent on Justification and accept the Reformed views of “Regeneration”, Justification", and “Sanctification” as explained in “The Westminster Confession of Faith”. Ironically enough I have no problems with the Catholic Dogmas about the Sacraments, I have no problems with Transubstantiation. That might have to do with the fact that I was an Anglican for ten years. The Marian Dogmas are an issue, but not really that BIG of an issue, I could give Theological Assent to them if the other issues can be resolved first.

As it stands now I simply cannot accept those Catholic Dogmas mentioned above nor can I accept the Council of Trent on Justification. Am I a Heretic? What should I do? Stay in the Church as I am or go back to being an Anglican? I told my Parish Priest about this. he said that if he expected every Catholic in the Parish to believe everything the Church teaches then the Church would be empty on Sundays. He said I should stay and keep praying for God to give me the Grace to believe those things I can’t accept at this time. He also said that I need to keep coming to Mass and receive the Eucharist and to come to Confession when I need to. What say you? What should I do?

 

[tm30]

at this point I simply cannot accept Papal Infallibility

Good heavens. No offense intended, but you’re coming from the Episcopal church and you don’t understand why God might grant Peter and his successors infallibility? Look at the wreckage of the ECUSA, the Anglican communion, and the Anglican church in Africa for your answer.

 

[CWBetts]

FOr the issues of Papal infallibility and the Primacy of Peter read Pope Fiction by Patrick Madrid

 

[steve_b]

Last Fall I finally decided to come back to the Catholic Church once for all after being away for 20 years (10 of those years were in a conservative “Continuing Anglican Church”, The Reformed Episcopal Church which took part in GAFCON last Summer and is now a part of the new “Anglican Church of North America” ) When I returned I still had doubts and uncertainties about some of the uniquely Catholic Dogmas. I will list them:

1. Papal Infallibility
2. Marian Dogmas
3. The whole idea of “Merit” and “Meriting Grace”

SURPRISE! I didn’t mention Purgatory, but I can see the possibility of some sort of “final Purification” before going to heaven.

I read Apologetics on those issues, I read what the church teaches (especially Trent on Justification and Merit etc.) I also read material from the opposite views. To be more specific I read “The Origins of Papal Infallibility” by Brian Tierny, “How the Pope Became Infallible” by August Bernard Hasler, “The Pope and the Council” by Johann Ignaz Von Dollinger. I read a lot of the Catechism, Catholic theology, the Bible, and Anglican and Reformed views on “Justification”.

I sought only to find the truth hoping that those doubts and uncertainties would be resolved in favour of what the Catholic Church teaches. What happened was that at this point I simply cannot accept Papal Infallibility, I disagree with Trent on Justification and accept the Reformed views of “Regeneration”, Justification", and “Sanctification” as explained in “The Westminster Confession of Faith”. Ironically enough I have no problems with the Catholic Dogmas about the Sacraments, I have no problems with Transubstantiation. That might have to do with the fact that I was an Anglican for ten years. The Marian Dogmas are an issue, but not really that BIG of an issue, I could give Theological Assent to them if the other issues can be resolved first.

As it stands now I simply cannot accept those Catholic Dogmas mentioned above nor can I accept the Council of Trent on Justification. Am I a Heretic?

technically, yes. Look up the definition of heretic.

kotek:

What should I do? Stay in the Church as I am or go back to being an Anglican?

What brought you back to the Church? Why are you leaving the Anglicans?
korek:

I told my Parish Priest about this. he said ***that if he expected every Catholic in the Parish to believe everything the Church teaches then the Church would be empty on Sundays. ***

If that’s a true statement, do you buy it?

kotek:

He said I should stay and keep praying for God to give me the Grace to believe those things I can’t accept at this time. He also said that I need to keep coming to Mass and receive the Eucharist and to come to Confession when I need to.

That’s all good

kotek:

What should I do?

DO what Peter said with regards to faith

2 Pet 1:

To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a** faith** as precious as ours:

2Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. 3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. 10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

IOW, Peter is saying (paraphrased) standing there at mass doesn’t make one a Catholic anymore than standing in a garage makes you a car. Faith requires our active participation and it requires **study **and hard work on our part. If you don’t add these things mentioned to your faith, you won’t have the faith you desire.

 

[kotek]

technically, yes. Look up the definition of heretic.

I did. From what I read a “heretic” is someone who knows the truth and knows it is the truth and rejects it and/or teaches contrary to truth

What brought you back to the Church? Why are you leaving the Anglicans?

Because in spite of what I see (at this point anyway) as errors the Catholic Church has more truth than non-Catholic Churches, especially Evangelical Churches.

If that’s a true statement, do you buy it?

Not sure what you mean here, thats what my Parish Priest told me.

That’s all good

DO what Peter said with regards to faith

2 Pet 1:

To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a** faith** as precious as ours:

2Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. 3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. 10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

IOW, Peter is saying (paraphrased) standing there at mass doesn’t make one a Catholic anymore than standing in a garage makes you a car. Faith requires our active participation and it requires **study **and hard work on our part. If you don’t add these things mentioned to your faith, you won’t have the faith you desire.

I do participate and assist at Mass, I don’t just stand there. As far as those things St. Peter mentions I try with God’s Grace to do those things, left on my own I couldn’t even begin to do those things without God’s Grace moving me to.

 

[adam_in_ohio]

I was listining to a talk this past week and the speeker said something very profound. The speeker said something to the effect of:
People will say something like “untill I understand this or that I will not accept it”. People pray for faith. They consntly ask God for more faith. They think more faith will help them understand something. The thing is, there not really seeking faith. There seeking understanding. Faith and understanding are not the same thing. They are not compleatly divorced from one another but not the same thing.

Hope this may give you some more to think and pray about.

 

[VociMike]

Regarding papal infallibility, hasn’t God throughout history given certain people the ability to speak his truth without error? So why would that gift suddenly be withdrawn after having been a part of his interaction with his people from the beginning?

Also, is it only papal infallibility that bothers you? What about the infallibility of the bishops acting together (the councils)?

 

[Axion]

The Westminster Confession? On Justification!!!

Isn’t that the one that says God created and selected certain people to be saved, and created and selected certain others to be punished eternally in hell - and all despite any choice or action of their own?

WHY WOULD YOU BELIEVE GOD WOULD DO THIS?

That’s what calvinism teaches. It’s often prettied up with weasel-words such as that God “passes over” the predestined to damnation. But it amounts to the same thing. The gospel is a sham, Jesus’s teaching is a sham, since we cannot benefit from it because our future is already decided with no (name removed by moderator)ut from our will. And Jesus’s death is not central at all - since it is wholly subordinate to the predestination decree that decided everyone’s future long before.

Catholicism on the other hand teaches that OUR decisions, OUR deeds, OUR attempts to co-operate with the Grace of God and follow Jesus are VITALLY important. Jesus came to teach us - not to go through the motions of preaching to those who either were already saved or could never be saved. When Jesus died on the cross it was with the desire that ALL had the chance to be saved through Him. Thjat is the true teaching of the gospel.

 

[kotek]

The Westminster Confession? On Justification!!!

Isn’t that the one that says God created and selected certain people to be saved, and created and selected certain others to be punished eternally in hell - and all despite any choice or action of their own?

WHY WOULD YOU BELIEVE GOD WOULD DO THIS?

That’s what calvinism teaches. It’s often prettied up with weasel-words such as that God “passes over” the predestined to damnation. But it amounts to the same thing. The gospel is a sham, Jesus’s teaching is a sham, since we cannot benefit from it because our future is already decided with no (name removed by moderator)ut from our will. And Jesus’s death is not central at all - since it is wholly subordinate to the predestination decree that decided everyone’s future long before.

Catholicism on the other hand teaches that OUR decisions, OUR deeds, OUR attempts to co-operate with the Grace of God and follow Jesus are VITALLY important. Jesus came to teach us - not to go through the motions of preaching to those who either were already saved or could never be saved. When Jesus died on the cross it was with the desire that ALL had the chance to be saved through Him. Thjat is the true teaching of the gospel.

I didn’t mention Predestination. I only refer to the parts of the Westminster Confession that refer to Regeneration, Justification, and Sanctification. I don’t hold to Double-Predestination.

Also I don’t want to turn this into a “Predestination” Thread. I would like comments on the things I specifically mentioned in my OP please. I see too many threads get derailed away from the original topic mentioned in the Thread-Starter OP.

 

[steve_b]

From what I read a “heretic” is someone who knows the truth and knows it is the truth and rejects it and/or teaches contrary to truth

The Catechism defines heresy as
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2089
"Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;

Merriam-Webster defines heretic as

1**:** a dissenter from established religious dogma ; especially : a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church who disavows a revealed truth
2**:** one who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine

kotek:

in spite of what I see (at this point anyway) as errors the Catholic Church has more truth than non-Catholic Churches, especially Evangelical Churches.

Given what you say you deny, given the sources you name that convinced you to deny certain Catholic beliefs, what is your yardstick NOW, for measuring error from truth?

kotek:

If that’s a true statement, do you buy it?

Not sure what you mean here, thats what my Parish Priest told me.

you mentioned your priest said

***that if he expected every Catholic in the Parish to believe everything the Church teaches then the Church would be empty on Sundays. ***

If this statement is correct, I’m hoping he was trying to be funny and not serious.

kotek:

As far as those things St. Peter mentions I try with God’s Grace to do those things, left on my own I couldn’t even begin to do those things without God’s Grace moving me to.

:tiphat:Great

 

[kotek]

The Catechism defines heresy as
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2089
"Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;

Merriam-Webster defines heretic as

1**:** a dissenter from established religious dogma ; especially : a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church who disavows a revealed truth
2**:** one who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine

Given what you say you deny, given the sources you name that convinced you to deny certain Catholic beliefs, what is your yardstick NOW, for measuring error from truth?

you mentioned your priest said

***that if he expected every Catholic in the Parish to believe everything the Church teaches then the Church would be empty on Sundays. ***

If this statement is correct, I’m hoping he was trying to be funny and not serious.

:tiphat:Great

1. One Canon of Scripture
2. Two Testaments, Old and New
3. Three Creeds. Apostles, Nicene, and Athanasian
4. The Early Church Fathers (where they have consensus)
5. The first Seven Ecumenical Councils

And yes my Parish Priest said that and he wasn’t trying to be funny, he was quite serious.

 

[Always_For_Him]

Keep up the good work. You really ARE trying. To me, it was getting outside of my own pride and selfishness to accept the Church’s teaching on many things, not just papal infallibility. Man, on his own self-appointed authority has made a mess of it. We are were not all given the power of infallibility. That was given by Jesus to the men He used to establish and guide His Church on earth to protect His Teachings. He knew the sinfull nature of man would not keep it pure and unchanged. Scripture tells us that Christ left a Church with divine authority to govern in His name (Mt 16:13-20). We believe Him. This living authority is called “Apostolic” because it began with the twelve Apostles and continued with their successors to preserve the teachings of Jesus Christ in all their fullness, and uncorrupted from error, until the end of time.

When we go too long depending on ourself, we forget that we are supposed to follow Jesus’ commands as HE said do them, not what we have come to believe that they now mean.

Throughout salvation history, God has put certain people in charge, and all along there have been those who didn’t like it. Why would that be any different now?

Christ left a Church to teach, govern and sanctify in His name until the end of time. He gave them His Authority and protection to do as He commanded. Without a living, breathing authority on earth, man will do exactly what those who left Christ’s Church through the Reformation have done. This is NOT what Christ wanted. He founded His Church and set it up the way He wanted it. We have no authority to change anything whether we like it or not.

Just humble yourself to His Will for you. Keep praying that He give you the wisdom to understand His Truth. Once you believe that Christ established a Church, and learn more of how the 2,000 year-old One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church has maintained Christ’s Deposit of Faith, you will be opened up for a complete change. Read the ECF’s, they have helped me understand what THE early Church believed. It remains the same today in the Catholic Church.

 

[Axion]

I didn’t mention Predestination. I only refer to the parts of the Westminster Confession that refer to Regeneration, Justification, and Sanctification. I don’t hold to Double-Predestination.

Also I don’t want to turn this into a “Predestination” Thread. I would like comments on the things I specifically mentioned in my OP please. I see too many threads get derailed away from the original topic mentioned in the Thread-Starter OP.

You said that you followed the Westminster confession on justification, and that you cannot accept the Council of Trent’s view of justification. Justification in the Westminster Confession is profoundly and inescapably bound up with double-predestination:

Chapter 3. III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.

The Chapter on Justification proceeds out of this, and is entirely based on double predestination:

Chapter 11. 1
I. Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth: not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ’s sake alone; not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them, they receiving and resting on him and his righteousness by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.

“Effectual” calling is the direct result of double predestination. The individual has no role.

III. Christ, by his obedience and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those that are thus justified, and did make a proper, real, and full satisfaction of his Father’s justice in their behalf. Yet inasmuch as he was given by the Father for them, and his obedience and satisfaction accepted in their stead, and both freely, not for any thing in them, their justification is only of free grace, that both the exact justice and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners.

In other words, human responses or acts play no part in justification. It is entirely God’s choice.

IV. God did, from all eternity, decree to justify the elect; and Christ did, in the fullness of time, die for their sins and rise again for their justification…

Christ here died only for the elect.

V. God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified; and although they can never fall from the state of justification, yet they may by their sins fall under God’s Fatherly displeasure…

In other words, eternal assurance of salvation for the elect, which is further emphasized in subsequent chapters.

So what parts of the Council of Trent’s doctrine of Justification do you disagree with, and why?

 

[steve_b]

1. One Canon of Scripture
2. Two Testaments, Old and New
3. Three Creeds. Apostles, Nicene, and Athanasian
4. The Early Church Fathers (where they have consensus)
5. The first Seven Ecumenical Councils

You said in an earlier post that you didn’t believe in

1. Papal Infallibility
2. Marian Dogmas
3. The whole idea of “Merit” and “Meriting Grace”

The truths contained in these beliefs must be believed.

• You can’t profess belief in the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church in reciting the Apostle and Nicene creeds, say Amen at the end of those creeds, which means you agree to what you’ve said, then say except I don’t believe in those other articles of faith.
• Regarding councils, The Catholic faith professes 21 ecumenical councils.

kotek:

And yes my Parish Priest said that and he wasn’t trying to be funny, he was quite serious.

sorry to hear that